Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.

[Stryder06]

I'd really like an answer to my question about Sunday Pythons, if you don't mind. You're always trying to claim the day for Saturday changed, but what about Sunday? If your tradition is so sound, wouldn't the day that you worship on now, need to be the same day as the one that you claim the disciples worshiped on?

 

[OntheDL]

This is the reality of living on a "round planet"...
...There are a significant number of people who can see the other's land mass.
...Yet are a full 24 hours apart.

File:International date line.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prior to the split of the continent the people on the side Saturday hit first...
...Could have thrown stones at the people on the other side of the line.
...For breaking the sabbath.

Something tells me God would not have approved of such things.

Is there such a thing as geography being anti-sabbath?

Look who is being a leagalist? Looking for every loophole.

Do people also have problems with others celebrating new year a day early?

 

[Pythons]

I'd really like an answer to my question about Sunday Pythons, if you don't mind. You're always trying to claim the day for Saturday changed, but what about Sunday? If your tradition is so sound, wouldn't the day that you worship on now, need to be the same day as the one that you claim the disciples worshiped on?

Stryder, look at the following URL and realize that this calendar poses zero problems for Catholicism - chances are that it will be introduced. Specifically scroll down and read the question & answer about "worship days".

FAQ

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder, look at the following URL and realize that this calendar poses zero problems for Catholicism - chances are that it will be introduced. Specifically scroll down and read the question & answer about "worship days".

FAQ

Not necessary. Just answer the question. Is Sunday, today, the same Sunday that you believe the disciples worshiped on? It's either yes or no.

 

[Pythons]

Not necessary. Just answer the question. Is Sunday, today, the same Sunday that you believe the disciples worshiped on? It's either yes or no.

No, Sunday is whatever day it falls on within whatever calendation is current at the time.


Patric Madrid
Well, what we have to remember is, first of all what Jesus said: He said don't forget that man was not made for the Sabbath; the Sabbath was made for man. And, the Lord Himself, we're told, was the Lord of the Sabbath, so He had the authority, in areas as far as how we would observe that commandment.

What your brother-in-law may not understand is that the Catholic Church did not change that commandment. The Catholic Church observes the commandment to keep holy the Lo- . . . the Sabbath, but it does so on the Lord's Day, and the earliest Christians transferred their observance of that commandment from Saturday to Sunday.

First of all, because there was a distinct break between the Old Testament requirements: the rituals and Mosaic covenant demands dealing with the Sabbath worship and animal sacrifices, and that sort of thing. And they wanted to show that Christianity was distinct from Judaism. It came from Judaism, but it was distinct from it. Uh, celebrating the Lord's coming, I'm sorry, celebrating the Lord's resurrection and death on the day that He rose from the dead seemed to be the most appropriate.

Uh, the other thing that we should remember, too, is that our calendar that we follow, including Seventh-day Adventists, is not only a calendar that was devised by the Catholic Church, but also it is a calendar that's based upon the solar year, not the lunar year. And the Jewish calendar that was observed in the time of Christ is, follows a lunar calendar, which is several days short of the solar calendar.

So the great irony is that even the Seventh-day Adventists themselves are not worshiping on exactly the same Sabbath day as the Jews of the time of Christ, because it's several days off now, uh, having, uh, switched to [from?] following the lunar calendar.

 

[OntheDL]

Stryder, look at the following URL and realize that this calendar poses zero problems for Catholicism - chances are that it will be introduced. Specifically scroll down and read the question & answer about "worship days".

FAQ

Of course not, Sunday observance came by man's tradition, not by any mandate in the scriptures.

 

[ChrisCarol]

Of course not, Sunday observance came by man's tradition, not by any mandate in the scriptures.

Scripture has the answer:

Romans 14: 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

God does not want this arguing that is why he made it simple. It's not about a day. It's about HIM.

Titus 3:

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

Isn't it true? What does this argument gain us. It is unprofitable and useless. God is so Marvelous and has an answer for everything.

 

[Stravinsk]

Uh, the other thing that we should remember, too, is that our calendar that we follow, including Seventh-day Adventists, is not only a calendar that was devised by the Catholic Church, but also it is a calendar that's based upon the solar year, not the lunar year. And the Jewish calendar that was observed in the time of Christ is, follows a lunar calendar, which is several days short of the solar calendar.

The Hebrew Calendar was a luni-solar calendar - and was tied to the year by the Barley Harvest. It is true that a strictly lunar time keeping calendar will lag behind the solar year 11 days, that is why in leap years an extra month is added to keep with the timing of the Barley Harvest.

Who are these people?

Ezekiel 8:15 Then He said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these.” So He brought me into the inner court of the LORD’s house; and there, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east.

Perhaps they are using a solar Calendar?

And who is this?

Isaiah 14:12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[b] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

Strong's H4150:

Congregation:


1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
a) appointed time
1) appointed time (general)
2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
b) appointed meeting
c) appointed place
d) appointed sign or signal
e) tent of meeting

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No, Sunday is whatever day it falls on within whatever calendation is current at the time.


Patric Madrid
Well, what we have to remember is, first of all what Jesus said: He said don't forget that man was not made for the Sabbath; the Sabbath was made for man. And, the Lord Himself, we're told, was the Lord of the Sabbath, so He had the authority, in areas as far as how we would observe that commandment.

What your brother-in-law may not understand is that the Catholic Church did not change that commandment. The Catholic Church observes the commandment to keep holy the Lo- . . . the Sabbath, but it does so on the Lord's Day, and the earliest Christians transferred their observance of that commandment from Saturday to Sunday.

First of all, because there was a distinct break between the Old Testament requirements: the rituals and Mosaic covenant demands dealing with the Sabbath worship and animal sacrifices, and that sort of thing. And they wanted to show that Christianity was distinct from Judaism. It came from Judaism, but it was distinct from it. Uh, celebrating the Lord's coming, I'm sorry, celebrating the Lord's resurrection and death on the day that He rose from the dead seemed to be the most appropriate.

Uh, the other thing that we should remember, too, is that our calendar that we follow, including Seventh-day Adventists, is not only a calendar that was devised by the Catholic Church, but also it is a calendar that's based upon the solar year, not the lunar year. And the Jewish calendar that was observed in the time of Christ is, follows a lunar calendar, which is several days short of the solar calendar.

So the great irony is that even the Seventh-day Adventists themselves are not worshiping on exactly the same Sabbath day as the Jews of the time of Christ, because it's several days off now, uh, having, uh, switched to [from?] following the lunar calendar.

Unless the seven day cycle is changed, which it hasn't been, the Sabbath as well as the other days of the week are exactly the same as in Christs time. Also the continuous Sabbath observance by the Jews using the seven daty day cycle, shows that Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Have you ever noticed that everything about the calendar has been manipulated except the seven day cycle? It's because Satan has not been allowed to change it....

 

[Pythons]

Unless the seven day cycle is changed, which it hasn't been, the Sabbath as well as the other days of the week are exactly the same as in Christs time.

You're not understanding ECR - the seven day cycle has never changed...
...What changed was that it became continuous, i.e. divorced from the month.

Also the continuous Sabbath observance by the Jews using the seven daty day cycle, shows that Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle. Both date back to the nomadic period of Israel. Originally the New Moon was celebrated in the same way as the Sabbath; gradually it became less important, while the Sabbath became more and more a day of religion and humanity, of religious meditation and instruction, or peace and delight of the soul, and produced powerful and beneficent effects outside of Judaism." (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 410 "Holidays")


while the week of seven days was connected with the lunar month, of which it is, approximately, a fourth. The quadripartite division of the month was evidently in use among the Hebrews and other ancient peoples; but it is not clear whether it originated among the former. It is unnecessary to assume, however, that it was derived from the Babylonians, for it is equally possible that observations of the four phases of the moon led the Hebrew nomads spontaneously and independently to devise the system of dividing the interval between the successive new moons into four groups of seven days each. There is ground, on the other hand, for the assumption that both among the Babylonians and among the Hebrews the first day of the first week of the month was always reckoned as coincident with the first day of the month." (www.jewishencyclopedia.com under "Week")

Have you ever noticed that everything about the calendar has been manipulated except the seven day cycle? It's because Satan has not been allowed to change it....

You're not understanding - the week is still 7 days in length - that part has never changed...
...What changed was that the seven days became continuous.

 

[Stravinsk]

Unless the seven day cycle is changed, which it hasn't been, the Sabbath as well as the other days of the week are exactly the same as in Christs time. Also the continuous Sabbath observance by the Jews using the seven daty day cycle, shows that Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Have you ever noticed that everything about the calendar has been manipulated except the seven day cycle? It's because Satan has not been allowed to change it....

We know from Genesis and from the Law that we are to work six days and rest on Sabbath.

However -

Can you prove from the bible that the 7 day weekly cycle (which we agree constitutes a week) - is *continuous*?

And what do SDA teach about "new moon day" and it's significance to time keeping - for the OT church?

Because it *was* significant to Israel - and where did Christ teach we are to follow a Julian or Gregorian Calendar where moon cycles float all over the place?

 

[Thunder 88]

No, Sunday is whatever day it falls on within whatever calendation is current at the time.


Patric Madrid
Well, what we have to remember is, first of all what Jesus said: He said don't forget that man was not made for the Sabbath; the Sabbath was made for man. And, the Lord Himself, we're told, was the Lord of the Sabbath, so He had the authority, in areas as far as how we would observe that commandment.

What your brother-in-law may not understand is that the Catholic Church did not change that commandment. The Catholic Church observes the commandment to keep holy the Lo- . . . the Sabbath, but it does so on the Lord's Day, and the earliest Christians transferred their observance of that commandment from Saturday to Sunday.

First of all, because there was a distinct break between the Old Testament requirements: the rituals and Mosaic covenant demands dealing with the Sabbath worship and animal sacrifices, and that sort of thing. And they wanted to show that Christianity was distinct from Judaism. It came from Judaism, but it was distinct from it. Uh, celebrating the Lord's coming, I'm sorry, celebrating the Lord's resurrection and death on the day that He rose from the dead seemed to be the most appropriate.

Uh, the other thing that we should remember, too, is that our calendar that we follow, including Seventh-day Adventists, is not only a calendar that was devised by the Catholic Church, but also it is a calendar that's based upon the solar year, not the lunar year. And the Jewish calendar that was observed in the time of Christ is, follows a lunar calendar, which is several days short of the solar calendar.

So the great irony is that even the Seventh-day Adventists themselves are not worshiping on exactly the same Sabbath day as the Jews of the time of Christ, because it's several days off now, uh, having, uh, switched to [from?] following the lunar calendar.

Unless the seven day cycle is changed, which it hasn't been, the Sabbath as well as the other days of the week are exactly the same as in Christs time. Also the continuous Sabbath observance by the Jews using the seven daty day cycle, shows that Sabbath is still the seventh day.

Have you ever noticed that everything about the calendar has been manipulated except the seven day cycle? It's because Satan has not been allowed to change it....

Fascinating, this requires further investigation.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We know from Genesis and from the Law that we are to work six days and rest on Sabbath.

However -

Can you prove from the bible that the 7 day weekly cycle (which we agree constitutes a week) - is *continuous*?

Lev 23:15:16
And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days;

Seven continuous seven day cycles... this spans two lunar cycles.

 

[Stravinsk]

Lev 23:15:16
And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days;

Seven continuous seven day cycles... this spans two lunar cycles.

This doesn't adequately answer any question of what the significance of the new moon was to the Israelites.

Also - there is an error in the way you are seeing it, if I am perceiving your interpretation correctly:

7 sabbaths (which is understood to be 7 - 7 week cycles) = 49 days(7X7)

The count starts on the day after the Sabbath so this day is counted as one more. So (7X7)=49 +1 =50 days

There's a problem with the above understanding. The count of 50 days doesn't start with the first Sabbath - the 50 day count starts on the morrow of the *7th* Sabbath.

The feast of firstfruits is the first (wave sheaf offering) is on the first day after the sabbath

This day starts the count to the feast of weeks. That is:

1) Start count on day of wave sheaf (first day after Sabbath) Seven Sabbaths shall be complete

THEN

2) Count 50 days

and *not*

"Count 7 Sabbaths and add a day to get to 50".

 

[Pythons]

Fascinating, this requires further investigation.

As I understand the premise of this calendation there were three back to back months mentioned in the Bible....
....Within the time-hack of the Exodus from Egypt when Moses led out the Children.
....Where the Sabbath day was on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29 days of each month.

This is impossible to duplicate on a Gregorian calendar or any other calendar where the 7 day weekly cycle....
...Is perpetual and continuous.



The reasoning is as follows.


The C.O.I. were told to kill the Passover lamb on the 14th day of the month...
....& to remain in their houses until the morning.
....Exodus 12.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12,1


God said this to Moses while the Children were still in Eqypt. If you have a Strong's please look up the Hebrew word for "month", it's H2320 (Chodesh) which the only meaning is "New Moon" or by implication a month or monthly "new moon".

Now it starts to get interesting.

"And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33, 1-3


Now, counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.


Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventhLev 23, 1-8

Here is the simple math,

New Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13, Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath Day)

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

Here is what the Bible says about the setting of "time".



The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies. He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. Ps 104,18


If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible on this type of calendar. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

We know that the New Moon day is not counted as being one of or part of the 6 working days because of Eze 46, 1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon. That's two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar.

The third month appears to work out the "same way" and as no one can duplicate two months back to back...
...With the Sabbath day falling on the identical days such as above.
...This looks to close things out pretty solidly.

In any even, if anyone was interested THAT is the reasoning behind that type of calendation...
...Most important for SDA's is it allows for a Passover 6th day of the week death on the cross for Christ.
...In 31 A.D. - which is required to validate the 2300 / year SDA prophetic schema.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This doesn't adequately answer any question of what the significance of the new moon was to the Israelites.

Also - there is an error in the way you are seeing it, if I am perceiving your interpretation correctly:

7 sabbaths (which is understood to be 7 - 7 week cycles) = 49 days(7X7)

The count starts on the day after the Sabbath so this day is counted as one more. So (7X7)=49 +1 =50 days

There's a problem with the above understanding. The count of 50 days doesn't start with the first Sabbath - the 50 day count starts on the morrow of the *7th* Sabbath.

The feast of firstfruits is the first (wave sheaf offering) is on the first day after the sabbath

This day starts the count to the feast of weeks. That is:

1) Start count on day of wave sheaf (first day after Sabbath) Seven Sabbaths shall be complete

THEN

2) Count 50 days

and *not*

"Count 7 Sabbaths and add a day to get to 50".

Give me a break...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What does the term perpetual mean?

per·pet·u·al /pərˈpɛtʃ

u

əl/ [per-pech-oo-uh

l]
adjective

1. continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.

2. lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.

3. continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day.

Exodus 31:15-17
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Notice how the command to work six days and rest the seventh flanks verse 16 that says it is a perpetual (continued without interruption) covenant? There is nothing in the Bible that is repeated unless it has significance... what could the significance be in these verses? Hmmmm...
Maybe that the seven day cycle is perpetual...

 

[Stravinsk]

Give me a break...

The Scripture you quoted clearly states that the count of 50 days starts after the 7th Sabbath:

Lev 23:15 ‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD

Here's YLT : 15`And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths; 16unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;



Tell me - does the 50 day count start on the first day after the first Sabbath or the first day after the 7th Sabbath?



Why not just say "Count 50 days starting with wave sheaf. These are 7 Sabbaths +1 day" ?


The Scriptures are clear that the 50 day count starts on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Scriptures are clear that the 50 day count starts on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

You are certainly free to believe how you want...

So you believe the day of Penecost, when the apostles were in the upper room, was 99 days after Passover?

I think you should do the theological world a favour and straighten them out on this Pentecost thing...
You can start by correcting the obviously erroneous entry at Wikipedia about Pentecost.
After that, there are thousands of other sites of all denominations that state that Pentecost is 50 days from Passover.

 

[Stravinsk]

What does the term perpetual mean?



Exodus 31:15-17
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Notice how the command to work six days and rest the seventh flanks verse 16 that says it is a perpetual (continued without interruption) covenant? There is nothing in the Bible that is repeated unless it has significance... what could the significance be in these verses? Hmmmm...
Maybe that the seven day cycle is perpetual...

Ok, I am officially annoyed at Pythons, who could not seem to find a smaller graphic making this page ginormously wide.

The covenant is perpetual.

The verses you quote do not state that 7 day weekly cycle is perpetual.

That is to say - yes, there are six work days - and a Sabbath

And there is another day called "New Moon" - that is neither a *regular* work (buy and sell) day nor a Sabbath. This is exemplified in passages like Ezekiel 46:1

1 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “The gateway of the inner court that faces toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened.

The day of the "New Moon", as this passage exemplifies - is neither one of the 6 regular working days nor is it the Sabbath.

Here again we see a distinction between "New Moon" and Sabbath"

Amos 8:4-6

4Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, 5Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
6That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?



Plain fact - the seven day continuous weekly cycle does not take into account the New Moon and it's significance as part of the time keeping process.



Genesis: 1:14


14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:



Clearly, the moon plays a role as a sign for signs, seasons, days and years - as does the sun.