Why was the risen Christ unrecognizable to Mary Magdalene and the Disciples?

[Sword of the Lord]

Don't touch me comes from the KJV. Don't cling to me or hang on me comes from all the other translations. I was looking in the KJV regarding the verse myself. Whoops.

 

[Grafted In]

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I counted: 10 do not touch me
10 do not hold/cling to me
And 1 be not touching me (I gave this one it's own special category because I personally enjoyed it so much )

 

[Grafted In]

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus say to Mary " but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God" if He knew He was going to see them later that same day? Furthermore He knew He would have another 40 days to tell them that. What purpose was there for Him to lend a sense of urgency to informing them right away?
The answer is that He was leaving then to ascend to The Father in my opinion.
Can you provide a better explaination?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus say to Mary " but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God" if He knew He was going to see them later that same day? Furthermore He knew He would have another 40 days to tell them that. What purpose was there for Him to lend a sense of urgency to informing them right away?
The answer is that He was leaving then to ascend to The Father in my opinion.
Can you provide a better explaination?

Why did Jesus tell the women in Mark ch. 16 to go and tell the others that He had risen if He was going to show up to them anyway? He certainly didn't need anyone to go and preach that He had risen right? He could do that Himself.

In fact, He could still do that all on His without us doing anything. He doesn't need us to preach the Gospel, He could certainly do that all on His own. He doesn't need us to baptize and make disciples, He could do that Himself, certainly. He doesn't need us to feed the hungry or clothe the naked, again it is perfectly within His power to do so.

And yet here we are, with Christ's call and commission to us as the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ebia]

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I counted: 10 do not touch me
10 do not hold/cling to me
And 1 be not touching me (I gave this one it's own special category because I personally enjoyed it so much )

Well, nearly all of the 10 are archaic and/or revisions of the KJV. Only NET could be described as a contempory translation independent of that.

 

[Strong in Him]

I disagree. His death on the cross forgave us of sin.

Yes it did. And when our sins have been forgiven, we are reconciled to God, which means that are no longer spiritually dead; we have eternal life.

Sin separates man from God.
When Adam and Eve sinned they hid from God because they were ashamed and afraid, they received a punishment from God for disobeying him and they were led out of the Garden of Eden. They died spiritually, and had God killed them physically, they would have spent the whole of eternity without him. From then onwards if mankind wanted to approach God they had to bring sacrifices; Cain, Abel, Noah, Abraham all made sacrifices to God. Then God gave the law through Moses and gave instructions about specific sacrifices for sin, guilt and so on. Finally he sent Jesus, who was the Lamb of God, the Good Shepherd, the spotless lamb (1 Peter 1:19); who voluntarily laid down his life as a sacrifice and shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins.
So when we trust in him, accept him as our Saviour and the sacrifice that he made for us, we are forgiven and cleansed from sin, redeemed, reconciled to God and have peace with him (Rom 5:1,9-11; 2 Cor 5:18-20; Col 1:19-20; Eph 1:7; 1 John 1:7-9.) Being forgiven, cleansed, reconciled to God and having peace with God, we are no longer separated from him; we are no longer spiritually dead but have new life (Rom 5:12-21; 6:11; 2 Cor 5:17). It is eternal life because it begins now, when we accept Christ, not after we die. John says that if we believe in the Son we have life; if we don't, then we don't have life, (John 3:16, 36; 1 John 4:15-16, 5:11-12.)

By His resurection He defeated death.

By his death he defeated death, by his resurrection he was shown to be the Son of God, (Rom 1:4.)

 

[Strong in Him]

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus say to Mary " but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God" if He knew He was going to see them later that same day? Furthermore He knew He would have another 40 days to tell them that. What purpose was there for Him to lend a sense of urgency to informing them right away?

I don't know. But why did Jesus tell Mary to tell the disciples he was alive when he knew he was going to appear to them himself? Why did he appear to the disciples when he knew Thomas wouldn't be there and he would have to appear to him later?

I'll ask again; if it was vital for Jesus to go to heaven to offer his blood in the holy of holies and he could not be touched by anyone or he would be contaminated, why did God not take him there straight from the tomb? Why did he appear to Mary, walk in the garden and risk being touched and contaminated?

The answer is that He was leaving then to ascend to The Father in my opinion.

No, sorry, but that's the answer you have come up with to try to find a way of answering your question. You've said yourself; it's your opinion, not Scripture.

Can you provide a better explaination?

I've said before, just because we don't know, or understand, why Jesus did something, that doesn't mean we are at liberty to read into Scripture or to try to rationalise his actions.
Can you prove, from Scripture, that he ascended to the Father there and then and God sent him back down to earth when it was time to appear to other people?

 

[Grafted In]

I'll work on that. For one thing He required the Robe of the High Priest from the Heavanly Tabernacle. And He sent the 2 angels from the Heavanly Ark to take it to Jesus. I still believe that's why He told Mary not to touch Him. Later the same day they all could touch Him.
I don't know why it was done this way unless God wanted us to have a deeper understanding of the work of Jesus.
No hard feelings I hope. I simply believed the bible teacher who I heard these things from. This is not something I concocted on my own.
But I will continue to search for Scripture to back up what he taught.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'll work on that. For one thing He required the Robe of the High Priest from the Heavanly Tabernacle.

According to your theory only. Scripture doesn't say this nor is it taught by any of the mainstream Christian churches.

And He sent the 2 angels from the Heavanly Ark to take it to Jesus.

Scripture doesn't say that either.

I still believe that's why He told Mary not to touch Him.

Yes, you may believe that, but I'm afraid that it's not taught in Scripture.

No hard feelings I hope. I simply believed the bible teacher who I heard these things from.

No hard feelings at all.
I'm just saying that what you are saying isn't taught in Scripture nor preached by the mainstream churches.

Who was this teacher; what church was he from?
The thing is that anyone can teach anything and claim it is "from the Bible". JWs and Moonies will quote Scripture to us to convince us of their views, but it is likely to be only a few select verses. Of course, they don't tell people this, and the average person would probably think "that is from the Bible, so he must be speaking the truth." JWs will even claim that they can't allow people to have a blood transfusion, which may save their life, because it's "in the Bible."

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'll work on that. For one thing He required the Robe of the High Priest from the Heavanly Tabernacle. And He sent the 2 angels from the Heavanly Ark to take it to Jesus.

That never happened. That is again, something either you are making up or someone has lied to you about.

I still believe that's why He told Mary not to touch Him. Later the same day they all could touch Him.
I don't know why it was done this way unless God wanted us to have a deeper understanding of the work of Jesus.
No hard feelings I hope. I simply believed the bible teacher who I heard these things from. This is not something I concocted on my own.
But I will continue to search for Scripture to back up what he taught.

Then you had a very lousy Bible teacher who fed you a lot of nonsense. Because if that sort of making stuff up is to be acceptable, then I should be able to talk about Jesus' pet unicorn named Steve.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grafted In]

Why did Jesus tell the women in Mark ch. 16 to go and tell the others that He had risen if He was going to show up to them anyway? He certainly didn't need anyone to go and preach that He had risen right? He could do that Himself.

Perhaps for the same reason He told Mary in John's Gospel to go tell the others that she had seen Him alive after dying on the cross and being buried for 3 days and 3 nights......He had work yet to do before they would see Him again .

 

[ViaCrucis]

Perhaps for the same reason He told Mary in John's Gospel to go tell the others that she had seen Him alive after dying on the cross and being buried for 3 days and 3 nights......He had work yet to do before they would see Him again .

Or maybe it's because the message of Christ's triumph over death is something that should be talked about; and the Evangelists want to bring us, the hearers and readers of this good news, to come and join and share that good news too.

That sounds like a far better way of understanding the text rather than making things up that never happened.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grafted In]

k
By his death he defeated death, by his resurrection he was shown to be the Son of God, (Rom 1:4.)

Paul does not agree with you on that point:
1 Corinthians 15:14

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul does not agree with you on that point:
1 Corinthians 15:14

It was Paul who said,
"..... who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 1:4)

1 Corinthians 15:14 says;
"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

I'm not disputing that Christ was raised, so I don't get why you quoted that.

 

[Grafted In]

Mary saw the risen Christ at the empty (aside from the 2 angels) tomb. He told her to go tell the others. So with that they were given reason why they could not see Him,as did she, until later. I believe they had understanding of her words having been told at some time prior to the crucifixion what He must do to complete our redemption. They understood that the slaughter of the Passover lamb was not effective until its blood was applied in The Holy Place.
Can't you see that had He not applied His blood in The Heavenly Holy of Holies we would die in our sins? If anything of this world touched either Him or The Priestly Robe He would not have been acceptable to God as a sacrifice for us and we would be lost. Can't you understand why He told Mary not to touch Him? He would not have been a fit sacrifice. Can't you see that had He waited until the 40 days were up to apply His blood we would not be counted Righteous? Many, many unclean things would have touched Him and been touched by Him in that 40 days.

 

[Strong in Him]

I believe they had understanding of her words having been told at some time prior to the crucifixion what He must do to complete our redemption.

The disciples didn't understand what was going on at all.
Yes, Jesus had told them that he must die and would then be raised again, but they still didn't understand it. They were hiding because they were afraid of the authorities and when Jesus did appear to them, they thought he was a ghost.

Can't you see that had He not applied His blood in The Heavenly Holy of Holies we would die in our sins?

No, because Scripture doesn't say this. There are many verses about having forgiveness and peace with God through Jesus, and reconciled because of his blood, and I have previously given some of these. But nowhere does Jesus talk about applying his blood in the holy of holies; or of being raised from the dead, popping back to heaven to do something, then coming back down again for a short time.
For me, anyway, if you want me to see, or understand, this you have to show me from Scripture.

If anything of this world touched either Him or The Priestly Robe He would not have been acceptable to God as a sacrifice for us and we would be lost.

Not according to Scripture.
Jesus died in agony, on the cross, for our sins and was later raised from the dead. If all of this could have been undone, or been in vain, because someone accidentally touched him, why did God not take him straight to heaven, from the tomb, to do what he had to do and make his sacrifice - all that he went through - acceptable? Why raise Jesus and allow him to appear on earth, with the risk that it would all have been for nothing?

Can't you understand why He told Mary not to touch Him?

With respect, can't you understand that it's been explained to you that he told Mary not to cling onto him - not that she was forbidden from touching him?

He would not have been a fit sacrifice.

Then why did he appear to her? Why wasn't he taken straight to heaven so that his hours on the cross weren't wasted?

Can't you see that had He waited until the 40 days were up to apply His blood we would not be counted Righteous?

This isn't what Scripture says.
Sorry, you may believe this passionately, but unless you can produce Scripture verses where Jesus said that this would, or did, happen; it's not likely to convince anyone.

Many, many unclean things would have touched Him and been touched by Him in that 40 days.

Very probably, but it's not a problem.
Jesus himself told Thomas he could touch him, he took fish and broke bread. In John 21 when the disciples got to the beach, they found a fire there - someone had to have built it.

All you need to do to prove your position is to provide Scripture for it.

 

[Grafted In]

I think a careful study of the book of Hebrews provides Spiritual proof that my words are backed by Scripture, if you truly want to understand The Truth.....that is not by human wisdom or by the canal mind.
Please consider re-reading Hebrews with an open mind that is sensitive to the urging of The Holy Ghost. I'm not just trying to be right for the sake of my flesh.but I want to understand Scripture with the mind of Christ that is in all of us. Perhaps I offended you earlier in this thread and you may have set your mind that you are not at this time open to The Truth because words I chose that my only reason for arguing this subject was a need to be right. That is not the case. I want to be right ONLY if what I believe is The Truth. And if you are able to prove my thinking is false teaching I will eagerly receive correction. My desire is not to fall in line with the thinking of a particular group of believers but to understand what God has made me able to understand. And I'm fully aware that He does not reveal all Truth to any one person but He has determined what He wills for each believer to understand and for every believer to share what He has shown them with the rest of The Body of Christ.

 

[Strong in Him]

I think a careful study of the book of Hebrews provides Spiritual proof that my words are backed by Scripture,.

You've said that before, but you haven't shown us where, or given a reasonable explanation or argument.
The Gospels say nothing of the kind - none of them. Jesus didn't say anything of the kind either. He said the Son of Man would suffer, die and then be raised again; he didn't teach about nipping up to heaven to apply his blood to the mercy seat. The early church did not teach this either.

if you truly want to understand The Truth.....that is not by human wisdom or by the canal mind.

The truth is in the Gospels and Acts. Jesus was raised from the dead, appeared to many people, proved who he was by breaking bread and eating fish, allowed Thomas to touch his wounds if he wanted to, stayed on earth for 40 days teaching the disciples and then ascended back to heaven.

Please consider re-reading Hebrews with an open mind that is sensitive to the urging of The Holy Ghost.

I've read Hebrews and studied it; I don't see anything like what you're teaching.

I'm not just trying to be right for the sake of my flesh.but I want to understand Scripture with the mind of Christ that is in all of us.

Sorry, you say this, but several people have told you that what you are saying is not Scriptural and that Jesus told Mary not to cling onto him, not that she was not allowed to touch him - yet still you persist in your view; your only explanation being "go and read Hebrews".

Perhaps I offended you earlier in this thread and you may have set your mind that you are not at this time open to The Truth

You haven't offended me; I hope I haven't given you that impression.
I am only telling you what the Gospels say - which is nothing about Jesus needing to go to heaven to the heavenly mercy seat without being touched or contaminated beforehand, otherwise he would have gone through all that agony on the cross for nothing. That is not there. Sorry, but it isn't.

Can you remember what you believed before you heard this "Bible teacher"? Can you remember reading the Gospels - any of them - for the first time and getting a picture of Jesus' resurrection appearances? Have you read the account of the ascension in Acts 1? Scripture does not say that this was Jesus' 5th, 8th or 10th ascension since the resurrection. This teacher you heard, and you, may both be utterly sincere about this belief and your message, but it just isn't Scriptural, neither is it taught by mainstream churches.

That is not the case. I want to be right ONLY if what I believe is The Truth. And if you are able to prove my thinking is false teaching I will eagerly receive correction.

What you teach is not in the Gospels - simple. Jesus didn't mention it, the early church didn't teach it, the church today doesn't teach it.

If you can quote the verses from Hebrews that you believe contradict the Gospels and church teaching, we might be able to study them together to see how you might have reached that conclusion. Others on this board, who are far more learned than I, may even know the Greek, and what it meant to those who originally read the letter. Looking at verses in context, maybe in the original language and with expert exegesis and interpretation, will help us all to see the truth.
I am willing for this to happen; are you?

And I'm fully aware that He does not reveal all Truth to any one person but He has determined what He wills for each believer to understand and for every believer to share what He has shown them with the rest of The Body of Christ.

You have been sharing what you have learnt with others in the body of Christ - and we have told you that it's not Scriptural.

 

[Grafted In]

I've read Hebrews and studied it; I don't see anything like what you're teaching.

Sorry, you say this, but several people have told you that what you are saying is not Scriptural and that Jesus told Mary not to cling onto him, not that she was not allowed to touch him - yet still you persist in your view; your only explanation being "go and read Hebrews".

You asked for Scriptural proof and I provided it

Can you remember what you believed before you heard this "Bible teacher"? Can you remember reading the Gospels - any of them - for the first time and getting a picture of Jesus' resurrection appearances? Have you read the account of the ascension in Acts 1? Scripture

Yes, of course.


If you can quote the verses from Hebrews that you believe contradict the Gospels and church teaching, we might be able to study them together to see how you might have reached that conclusion. Others on this board, who are far more learned than I, may even know the Greek, and what it meant to those who originally read the letter. Looking at verses in context, maybe in the original language and with expert exegesis and interpretation, will help us all to see the truth.
I am willing for this to happen; are you?

Absolutely.

 

[Strong in Him]

You asked for Scriptural proof and I provided it

Sorry, but you haven't.
In this thread, you've said;

He was on his way to Heaven to apply His blood in the Holy of Holys and neither He nor His clothes could be corrupted by the world.

Scripture?
Where do the Gospels say this?

Did He not at some point apply His blood to the Mercy Seat in The Holy of Holys....the very Throne Room Of God?

Scripture reference?

Did He not do in Heaven the same as that which occured in the earthly temple at His death?

Scripture?

Can't you see that had Mary touched Him before this final work He would be not only unfit to enter The Holy Places, but, being also a man, would surely die?

Scripture?

For one thing He required the Robe of the High Priest from the Heavanly Tabernacle.

Who says?

And He sent the 2 angels from the Heavanly Ark to take it to Jesus.

Where does Scripture say this?

If you can quote the verses from Hebrews that you believe contradict the Gospels and church teaching, we might be able to study them together to see how you might have reached that conclusion. Others on this board, who are far more learned than I, may even know the Greek, and what it meant to those who originally read the letter. Looking at verses in context, maybe in the original language and with expert exegesis and interpretation, will help us all to see the truth.
I am willing for this to happen; are you?

Absolutely.

Great. In that case, I wait for you to quote the relevant verses from Hebrews.