Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

[7xlightray]

This is not a reference to the Word, nor the theology or understanding on which John draws for John 1. Notice three things:

1. "my word..." not "the word..."
2. "it"
3. Nowhere does God call His word "God"

God's word is not the Word. God's word, as it says in this passage, is an "it." It is impersonal, not an entity with force and will, but literally what God is saying. The Word is a "He." "He was with God in the beginning."

The Word is God. God's word is not. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God..."

Expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, Gods reasoning expressed by words – Is God. Who else is it? It is God. That is the “My word” You really are dragging this out.

...but if you wish. The word “logos” (“it” if you will) became flesh (“he”)

The word was God. It was His thoughts, the expression of Him. The word became flesh, but before this he was God. The word was God, but then the word became flesh. The word was God, but then the word became the earth.

So if Jesus was God, he was a – logos - being the expression of a thought, expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, reasoning expressed by words.

 

[nomadictheist]

They are simply questions. You can answer them, or not.

All things came from God. The earth came from God. Is the earth God? No! Yet, it existed in the mind of God at one time. Christ existed in the mind of God, and came forth.

The Bible never says "the earth was God" because the earth never was God. The Bible never says "the sun was God" because the sun never was God. The Bible never even says that "the word of the Lord" is God, because the word of the Lord is not God.

Yet the Bible says "the Word was God" because the Word was God. What was God still is God. God never changes.

Furthermore, the Bible never says "the Word became the earth." The Bible never says "the Word became the sun." In fact, to the contrary the Bible says that the sun and the earth were made through Him (and yes, John does use the word "Him," not "it." The only thing that the Bible ever says the word became was "flesh."

 

[nomadictheist]

Expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, Gods reasoning expressed by words – Is God. Who else is it? It is God. That is the “My word” You really are dragging this out.

...but if you wish. The word “logos” (“it” if you will) became flesh (“he”)

The word was God. It was His thoughts, the expression of Him. The word became flesh, but before this he was God. The word was God, but then the word became flesh. The word was God, but then the word became the earth.

So if Jesus was God, he was a – logos - being the expression of a thought, expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, reasoning expressed by words.

God's thoughts are not God. They are God's thoughts. You are making claims that are not supported by scripture.

The Bible never says the word became the earth. The Bible never says the word became the sun, the moon, or the stars. You are saying that, but that is nothing more than heresy.

The only thing the word ever "became" was flesh. Everything else was created "through Him" (not it).

 

[7xlightray]

This is not a reference to the Word, nor the theology or understanding on which John draws for John 1. Notice three things:

1. "my word..." not "the word..."
2. "it"
3. Nowhere does God call His word "God"

God's word is not the Word. God's word, as it says in this passage, is an "it." It is impersonal, not an entity with force and will, but literally what God is saying. The Word is a "He." "He was with God in the beginning."

The Word is God. God's word is not. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God..."

Jesus was a thought expressed – Logos.
A thought expressed is not another person. Is your thought expressed another person? Or, is it you?

 

[7xlightray]

God's thoughts are not God. They are God's thoughts. You are making claims that are not supported by scripture.

W...h...a...t?
Your thoughts aren't you?
If you had no thoughts, what would you be?
You would not be you, if you had no thoughts.

 

[7xlightray]

The Bible never says the word became the earth. The Bible never says the word became the sun, the moon, or the stars. You are saying that, but that is nothing more than heresy.

The only thing the word ever "became" was flesh. Everything else was created "through Him" (not it).

I was just trying to help you understand something, if earth bothers you, then pick something else. How about the sun Gen. 1:14, or verse 20 sea creatures.

God “said” is not “said” a word, or words, to utter word/s?

 

[7xlightray]

The Bible never says "the earth was God" because the earth never was God. The Bible never says "the sun was God" because the sun never was God. The Bible never even says that "the word of the Lord" is God, because the word of the Lord is not God.

Yet the Bible says "the Word was God" because the Word was God. What was God still is God. God never changes.

Furthermore, the Bible never says "the Word became the earth." The Bible never says "the Word became the sun." In fact, to the contrary the Bible says that the sun and the earth were made through Him (and yes, John does use the word "Him," not "it." The only thing that the Bible ever says the word became was "flesh."

Are you saying when God created something, or will create a new thing, He did not, or does not think about it first?

 

[nomadictheist]

Expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, Gods reasoning expressed by words – Is God. Who else is it? It is God. That is the “My word” You really are dragging this out.

...but if you wish. The word “logos” (“it” if you will) became flesh (“he”)

The word was God. It was His thoughts, the expression of Him. The word became flesh, but before this he was God. The word was God, but then the word became flesh. The word was God, but then the word became the earth.

So if Jesus was God, he was a – logos - being the expression of a thought, expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, reasoning expressed by words.

And furthermore the Word was not an "it." Ever. John starts his gospel "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. HE was with God in the beginning. All things were made through Him, and without HIM nothing was made that was made..."

 

[nomadictheist]

W...h...a...t?
Your thoughts aren't you?
If you had no thoughts, what would you be?
You would not be you, if you had no thoughts.

Honestly, I don't have time to argue with somebody who won't accept what the Bible says.

No, my thoughts aren't me. If they were, I would be everything that I think about, from the holocaust committed by Hitler to the creation of the world to God. My thoughts are non-physical, non-verbal expressions of what I have perceived, seen, understood, or imagined.

God does not speak of His thoughts or His word (note His word, not the word) as being in any way Him. Therefore we should not presume to do so either.

 

[nomadictheist]

Jesus was a thought expressed – Logos.
A thought expressed is not another person. Is your thought expressed another person? Or, is it you?

Neither. I can express my thoughts in a few different ways. I can: (1) speak them, in which case they are expressed as my words (not me) (2) write them, in which case they are expressed as my written words, not me or (3) act upon them, in which case they are expressed as my actions, not me.

You are not arguing from the Bible, you are arguing from a man-made philosophy about thoughts and words that has nothing to do with what God has revealed to us in His written Word (the Bible). Thoughts and words are not, nor have they ever been, in any way the person or being who is thinking or speaking them.

Really what you are arguing is pantheism. If God's "thoughts" are God, and God's "words" are God, then the whole universe is "God" because the whole universe is an "expression of God's thoughts."

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, Gods reasoning expressed by words – Is God. Who else is it? It is God. That is the “My word” You really are dragging this out.

...but if you wish. The word “logos” (“it” if you will) became flesh (“he”)

The word was God. It was His thoughts, the expression of Him. The word became flesh, but before this he was God. The word was God, but then the word became flesh. The word was God, but then the word became the earth.

So if Jesus was God, he was a – logos - being the expression of a thought, expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, reasoning expressed by words.

The verse in question says nothing about the Word becoming the Earth.

Are you saying when God created something, or will create a new thing, He did not, or does not think about it first?

God does not change; your use of the verb "think" suggests He does; it suggests a temporal process He is not subject to.

W...h...a...t?
Your thoughts aren't you?
If you had no thoughts, what would you be?
You would not be you, if you had no thoughts.

My thoughts are a property of my person; they are not ontologically "me."

 

[7xlightray]

Honestly, I don't have time to argue with somebody who won't accept what the Bible says.

No, my thoughts aren't me. If they were, I would be everything that I think about, from the holocaust committed by Hitler to the creation of the world to God. My thoughts are non-physical, non-verbal expressions of what I have perceived, seen, understood, or imagined.

God does not speak of His thoughts or His word (note His word, not the word) as being in any way Him. Therefore we should not presume to do so either.

I think you are confusing things. I was in no way trying to suggest that if you think of a sun you are a sun, that would be a bit ridiculous. Only just a bit. Your getting way to literal. You don't actually plant a seed in the ground when you share the Gospel do you? No, of course not! ...right? We wont get anywhere, if we start reasoning and arguing in this fashion.

If your thoughts are not you, then how could you be judged for even what you think?

 

[7xlightray]

Neither. I can express my thoughts in a few different ways. I can: (1) speak them, in which case they are expressed as my words (not me) (2) write them, in which case they are expressed as my written words, not me or (3) act upon them, in which case they are expressed as my actions, not me.

You are not arguing from the Bible, you are arguing from a man-made philosophy about thoughts and words that has nothing to do with what God has revealed to us in His written Word (the Bible). Thoughts and words are not, nor have they ever been, in any way the person or being who is thinking or speaking them.

Really what you are arguing is pantheism. If God's "thoughts" are God, and God's "words" are God, then the whole universe is "God" because the whole universe is an "expression of God's thoughts."

On the other hand, we can't think of something and then speak it into being. God can.

God breathed into Adam the breath of life. That breath of life came from God, and that same breath will return to Him, because it is His, Yet Adam is not God. That breath of life was with God, and was God, then He gave it to Adam. Adam died, and that breath of life returned to God.

When God made Christ, God made him to be the fullness of Himself. Himself manifested in flesh, but that does not make Jesus God. Jesus is the image of God. If you are the image of something, you cant be that something, else you would be that something, not an image of it. We will be made in the image of Christ. Does that mean we will be Christ? No, that is not what that means. It means we will be just like him. Jesus was just like God, but he is not God.

Else, Jesus would have said, We are the only true God, instead of You are the only true God.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

On the other hand, we can't think of something and then speak it into being. God can.

"Think" conveys the sense of an action relative to Time occurring in God. Since God created Time and is Himself unchanging and eternal, this is impossible.

God breathed into Adam the breath of life. That breath of life came from God, and that same breath will return to Him, because it is His, Yet Adam is not God. That breath of life was with God, and was God, then He gave it to Adam. Adam died, and that breath of life returned to God.

According to John ch. 1 v. 3, our Lord created all things, including Adam.

When God made Christ, God made him to be the fullness of Himself. Himself manifested in flesh, but that does not make Jesus God. Jesus is the image of God. If you are the image of something, you cant be that something, else you would be that something, not an image of it.

Not true; one can be the "image" of any number of things; compare visage, prosopon, personage.

We will be made in the image of Christ. Does that mean we will be Christ? No, that is not what that means. It means we will be just like him. Jesus was just like God, but he is not God.

That's not what the Gospel of St. John says.

Else, Jesus would have said, We are the only true God, instead of You are the only true God.

Such an assumption does not reflect what traditional Christians believe.

I think you are confusing things. I was in no way trying to suggest that if you think of a sun you are a sun, that would be a bit ridiculous. Only just a bit. Your getting way to literal. You don't actually plant a seed in the ground when you share the Gospel do you? No, of course not! ...right? We wont get anywhere, if we start reasoning and arguing in this fashion.

If your thoughts are not you, then how could you be judged for even what you think?

I find it strange how you want to argue that your thoughts are you, but your image is not.

 

[7xlightray]

The verse in question says nothing about the Word becoming the Earth.



God does not change; your use of the verb "think" suggests He does; it suggests a temporal process He is not subject to.



My thoughts are a property of my person; they are not ontologically "me."

That's right, then it could be that I am making some kind of point. For the rest, check the two post below yours.


Maybe you are willing to give O/T scripture to explain these passages away...

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.​

What God did the O/T Jews believe in? They did not know a trinity Yhvh God. How could they ever accept a trinity, when God warded them not to. If God told them not to go after another, then why should the church accept a trinity?


Then this one...

Mark 13:32 (KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, not the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Zechariah 14:7 (KJV) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD(God – Yhvh is not sharing when this day is. Jesus made sure those that have ears to hear, heard).​

Zech. 14 Says this day is known to the LORD – Yhvh. Yet, Jesus confessed he did not know this day. How can he be Yhvh if he does not know?


I'll throw another one in for fun. How could the Highest God (Jesus, God the Son) allow these words to come out of his mouth...

Matthew 20:23 but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.​

This would mean Jesus is not the Highest God, but the Father is.

 

[7xlightray]

"Think" conveys the sense of an action relative to Time occurring in God. Since God created Time and is Himself unchanging and eternal, this is impossible.



According to John ch. 1 v. 3, our Lord created all things, including Adam.



Not true; one can be the "image" of any number of things; compare visage, prosopon, personage.



That's not what the Gospel of St. John says.



Such an assumption does not reflect what traditional Christians believe.



I find it strange how you want to argue that your thoughts are you, but your image is not.

Your going to have to do much better then that.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Your going to have to do much better then that.

I actually won't, given that this issue was settled nearly 1,700 years ago.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

That's right, then it could be that I am making some kind of point. For the rest, check the two post below yours.


Maybe you are willing to give O/T scripture to explain these passages away...

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.​

This prohibits adherence to pagan polytheism. It is comparable to Galatians ch. 1 v.8.

What God did the O/T Jews believe in? They did not know a trinity Yhvh God. How could they ever accept a trinity, when God warded them not to. If God told them not to go after another, then why should the church accept a trinity?

There is no "warning" in the Old Testsment about accepting faith in the Holy Trinity. The idea that God would warn people not to believe in what He actually is, is quite silly.

Then this one...

Mark 13:32 (KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, not the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Zechariah 14:7 (KJV) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD(God – Yhvh is not sharing when this day is. Jesus made sure those that have ears to hear, heard).​

This has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Zech. 14 Says this day is known to the LORD – Yhvh. Yet, Jesus confessed he did not know this day. How can he be Yhvh if he does not know?

The knowledge is available to Him as God; however, since He is also fully Man, it is not part of the sum of human knowledge.

I'll throw another one in for fun. How could the Highest God (Jesus, God the Son) allow these words to come out of his mouth...

Matthew 20:23 but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.​

This would mean Jesus is not the Highest God, but the Father is.

No; they are both God, but the Father is the Father. We do not deny that our Lord is subordinate to the Father in the Holy Trinity.

 

[7xlightray]

I actually won't, given that this issue was settled nearly 1,700 years ago.

No they muddied the water, because it was settled long before that.
I would also point you to my post #362.
Should I take the word of man, or the word of God which states...
Deuteronomy 13:1-3; Mark 12:29,32,34; John 17:1-3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[7xlightray]

This prohibits adherence to pagan polytheism. It is comparable to Galatians ch. 1 v.8.

Don't know what this has to do with the subject.

There is no "warning" in the Old Testsment about accepting faith in the Holy Trinity. The idea that God would warn people not to believe in what He actually is, is quite silly.

Did God teach the O/T Jews a trinity God?