He says "also we" so as to not be misunderstood as saying to "Israel" alone. Remember, Paul was a Jew and Christ had said that He had come only for the house of Israel, but now Paul had been made an apostle to the gentiles. He was expanding into new territory.
He says "also we" because he doesn't want the gentile Ephesians to thing "all things" mean Jews? Paul doesn't say a single thing about Israel here. In fact, he only says Israel one time in the entire letter:
"For
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should
boast.
For we are
his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath
before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of
Israel, and strangers from the
covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Ephesians 2:8
Before the cross, the only salvation was through faith in the coming of Messiah. The gentiles in general, had no such faith, and yet provision was made by God for those who joined them. Other than that, salvation was limited to the chosen...who then became the firstfruits risen with Christ. That leaves many a gentile unsaved, before the good news of the coming of Christ, which then went out to all nations...who lived the limited existence of natural life, just as non-believers do now. They have their lot. This is it.
My friend, according to the verse you sent me, you believe that these gentiles that were not saved before Messiah came, do not live this limited existence of natural life alone. According to a carnal (and mistranslated) interpretation of Revelation 14:10, they will be tormented forever
and ever.
You say that provisions were made by God for gentiles that joined the Israelites. This is true. A gentile could join the Israelites, and even get circumcised if they wished to attend Passover. Never once does God say that gentiles should do this so that they can avoid an eternal torture chamber.
"Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in." Joshua 6:1
Jericho didn't even want to fight. They were afraid and shut all the people into the city.
"And they utterly destroyed all that
was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21
Where were the provisions for Jericho? The Israelites went straight in and destroyed everyone. Nobody begged and pleaded with Jericho to repent. Is everyone in Jericho burning in hell?
"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee
for an inheritance,
thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt
utterly destroy them;
namely, the
Hittites, and the
Amorites, the
Canaanites, and the
Perizzites, the
Hivites, and the
Jebusites;
as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" Deuteronomy 20:16
Are the inhabitants of these cities burning in hell right now? The Jews couldn't even save the women and children. Are all the children from these cities (that have passed the so called "age of accountability") burning in hell right now?
What about the people that lived before the Law? Or before Abraham? Where were their provisions.
I'm not trying to mock my friend. These things need to be addressed, because we are talking about people burning for trillions and trillions and trillions of eternal years. This is not just something to scoff at or ignore.
You wrote:
"Other than that, salvation was limited to
the chosen...who then became the firstfruits risen with Christ."
I'm not really sure what this means. Are you saying the Jews are the firstfruits of those risen with Messiah?
You also say that the only salvation was faith in the coming Messiah. None of these cities even heard of a coming Messiah. Jonah didn't say a single word about a coming Messiah to the Ninevites.
Please understand that the matter is complex and the story of every generation, while adequate to tell all, it is not easily perceived.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the
simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing
teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:27
"
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God,
that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not;
and it shall be given him." James 1:5
"Wherein he hath abounded toward us in
all wisdom and prudence;
Having
made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself" Ephesians 1:8
"Ask, and it
shall be given you; seek, and
ye shall find; knock, and it
shall be opened unto you:
For
every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh
findeth; and to him that knocketh it
shall be opened." Matthew 7:7
That last verse is our Lord. Was He only speaking to the Israelites when He said this? Should we disregard everything He said because He wasn't talking to us?
The Gospel is not conplex. It is simple and pure. It is very easy to perceive, because God has abounded us with the wisdom and knowledge of His will.
This is part of the plan, as God himself confused our language at the Tower of Babel, that confusion would hold us in certain blindness until all was fulfilled. With spiritual discernment we can discover what is eluded to, and it is this: That all things were created for the finite purpose of an infinite profit to the glory of God. But that which was created, was created of nothing, and is nothing, unless it is risen with Christ, or born of the spirit of God made available by the joining of the spirit of Christ with the Holy Spirit of God. Within those parameters "all" are indeed saved. BUT, all are not included within those parameters, nor could they be. God's mission in creating the heavens and the earth was to separate the Light from the darkness. Darkness is the element of evil, whether man or beast, or spirits...and has been condemned for all eternity. They cannot enter into the new heaven and new earth. It is finished. And yet, while it would appear that darkness gains within the world...it is not that it is winning, but that Light is leaving...with every generation, until the fullness of the gentiles is complete.
I agree with almost everything you have said here. However, we have a much different idea of what this Light and darkness is. You believe this light and darkness are people.
"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your
inward part is full of ravening and wickedness." Luke 11:39
"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but
within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew 23:28
"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
For from
within, out of the heart of men,
proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." Mark 7:21
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold,
the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21
And I believe all men will be joined the Spirit of Messiah, for all men will confess and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Do you not know that we will judge the world? Do you not know that we will judge angels? What is our criteria for judging?
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but,
Until seventy times seven.
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his
servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as
he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord,
have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was
moved with compassion, and loosed him, and
forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took
him by the throat, saying,
Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying,
Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. (Even the wicked servant was going to let his fellowservant get out eventually)
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him,
O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was
due unto him.
(Even the wicked servant is tormented until he pays his due)
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." Matthew 18:21
Think about it my friend. God bless you.
