Why Old Earth creationism doesn't work

[BNR32FAN]

You literally just described it as a glass dome above. Those are your words.

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

View attachment 340185

I was at work and had to reply quickly so all I wanted to explain was that Genesis is written according to God’s revelation not according to popular beliefs. I didn’t have time to get into the definition of Raqia so I put the words “glass dome” in quotations. Quoting Job doesn’t mean anything because these quotes are not prophetic statements, they’re personal statements. Not all quotes in the Bible are inspired from God, most of them are merely records of what was said.

 

[Job 33:6]

I was at work and had to reply quickly so all I wanted to explain was that Genesis is written according to God’s revelation not according to popular beliefs. I didn’t have time to get into the definition of Raqia so I put the words “glass dome” in quotations. Quoting Job doesn’t mean anything because these quotes are not prophetic statements, they’re personal statements. Not all quotes in the Bible are inspired from God, most of them are merely records of what was said.

Glad to know that what the Bible says "doesn't mean anything" to you. Duly noted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Glad to know that what the Bible says "doesn't mean anything" to you. Duly noted.

This is quite an accusation coming from someone who rejects the literal 6 day creation. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but it is in fact your position that the Bible is not a literal science book, Your quote from Job is not a prophetic statement, it’s merely a statement he made at that time. But here are a few more examples of statements Job made that were not true.

“You renew Your witnesses against me And increase Your anger toward me; Hardship after hardship is with me.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He has also kindled His anger against me And considered me as His enemy.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭19‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was God angry with Job? No He wasn’t, in fact God was very pleased with Job which is the exact opposite of what Job said here. Furthermore Job later says himself that he has declared things that he did not understand.

“‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’ I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So as I previously stated not all quotes of men in the scriptures are truth, some are merely a record of what was said. So it’s not a matter of “what the Bible says doesn’t mean anything” to me, it’s a matter of understanding the context in which the verse was intended. Another thing you should realize if you’ve actually read the book of Job is that a very large majority of the book is composed of proverbial speaking which means it’s not intended to be taken literally. It’s much like a parable or a figure of speech. Like for example it’s raining cats & dogs.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Wait, the verse literally says he was decked in jewels in EDEN. doesn't it?

I interpret it as his appearing but a lowly snake or dragon. It was stated later that women would have a fear of serpent/snakes. From that episode it appears Satan, the serpent, had already lost his glory of walking on the glowing stones, etc., already cast down to earth to terrorize nations.

 

[Jim Campbell]

This is quite an accusation coming from someone who rejects the literal 6 day creation. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but it is in fact your position that the Bible is not a literal science book, Your quote from Job is not a prophetic statement, it’s merely a statement he made at that time. But here are a few more examples of statements Job made that were not true.

“You renew Your witnesses against me And increase Your anger toward me; Hardship after hardship is with me.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He has also kindled His anger against me And considered me as His enemy.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭19‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was God angry with Job? No He wasn’t, in fact God was very pleased with Job which is the exact opposite of what Job said here. Furthermore Job later says himself that he has declared things that he did not understand.

“‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’ I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So as I previously stated not all quotes of men in the scriptures are truth, some are merely a record of what was said. So it’s not a matter of “what the Bible says doesn’t mean anything” to me, it’s a matter of understanding the context in which the verse was intended. Another thing you should realize if you’ve actually read the book of Job is that a very large majority of the book is composed of proverbial speaking which means it’s not intended to be taken literally. It’s much like a parable or a figure of speech. Like for example it’s raining cats & dogs.

Most if not all what Job complained about is what people experiencing problems today have to say, blaming God instead of listening to Him.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is quite an accusation coming from someone who rejects the literal 6 day creation. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but it is in fact your position that the Bible is not a literal science book, Your quote from Job is not a prophetic statement, it’s merely a statement he made at that time. But here are a few more examples of statements Job made that were not true.

“You renew Your witnesses against me And increase Your anger toward me; Hardship after hardship is with me.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He has also kindled His anger against me And considered me as His enemy.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭19‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was God angry with Job? No He wasn’t, in fact God was very pleased with Job which is the exact opposite of what Job said here. Furthermore Job later says himself that he has declared things that he did not understand.

“‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’ I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So as I previously stated not all quotes of men in the scriptures are truth, some are merely a record of what was said. So it’s not a matter of “what the Bible says doesn’t mean anything” to me, it’s a matter of understanding the context in which the verse was intended. Another thing you should realize if you’ve actually read the book of Job is that a very large majority of the book is composed of proverbial speaking which means it’s not intended to be taken literally. It’s much like a parable or a figure of speech. Like for example it’s raining cats & dogs.

Seems like you're just making excuses for the plethora of verses in Job that describe ancient near east cosmology.

Just face it. The situation is what it is. The old testament, and Genesis in particular, describes an ancient near east cosmology.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Most if not all what Job complained about is what people experiencing problems today have to say, blaming God instead of listening to Him.

What we need to try to remember is it’s not about this world. I think we all are guilty of forgetting that from time to time when things get hard. It’s easy to trust in God when things are going good, but in times of pain and sorrow it’s becomes easy to loose sight of the bigger picture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Seems like you're just making excuses for the plethora of verses in Job that describe ancient near east cosmology.

Just face it. The situation is what it is. The old testament, and Genesis in particular, describes an ancient near east cosmology.
View attachment 340217

No you just refuse to admit that a Job was not speaking from divine inspiration in those verses as I’ve already proven to you by quoting his own words. Here I’ll quote him again in case you skipped that part.

“Then Job answered the Lord and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Job 33:6]

No you just refuse to admit that a Job was not speaking from divine inspiration in those verses as I’ve already proven to you by quoting his own words. Here I’ll quote him again in case you skipped that part.

“Then Job answered the Lord and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Ancient near east cosmology is covered all over the old testament.

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

It's not just Job.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ancient near east cosmology is covered all over the old testament.

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

It's not just Job.

So you still refuse to admit when you’re proven wrong, even a second time. You’re still quoting Job right after I showed you that even Job himself said he was wrong.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I don't think so.

Why not? Why does he let them live at all? And I do not believe in macro evolution, but I do believe in an old earth.

 

[Job 33:6]

So you still refuse to admit when you’re proven wrong, even a second time. You’re still quoting Job right after I showed you that even Job himself said he was wrong.

I've quoted a lot more than Job. Are you saying that all the other books that describe ancient Near East cosmology are wrong too?

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Also, Job never said that the sky wasn't solid.

 

[Semper-Fi]

I've quoted a lot more than Job.

Yes, you quoted many scriptures, but some has nothing to do with
The creation account. For example, verses given in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel’s Vision of most impressive—living creatures that was lit up
like fire, and lightning coming out of the fire. Ezekiel was not talking
about the firmament/dome,sky/area/expance above the earth, but
the firmament/area, above/redating from the living creatures.

These verses have nothing to do with Ancient near east cosmology.

-Daniel 4:20

The Dreams and visions king Nebuchadnezzar had in Daniel 4
prophecy, he told the interpretation thereof as recorded.

22 it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness
is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

This verse has nothing to do with Ancient near east cosmology
creation event. It was a dream/prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar/and kingdom.

-Revelation 4:1, Revelation 6:14

A vision into the future, about things to come.
Not sure how this pertains to creation events.

-Isaiah 34:4 is also prophetic language of a future event.
Again Not sure how this pertains to the creation events.

-Genesis 28:12‭-‬13. Jacob had a dream/ a vision, this does not
mean there was a physical ladder Angeles climbed up and down on.

None of these verses above describe Ancient near east cosmology.

The entire material realm operates in accordance with physical laws.
God declares that He is that Lawgiver (James 4:12).

“For the Lord is a God of knowledge …” (1 Samuel 2:3).
“[K]nowledge that is too wonderful for me; Too high,
I cannot attain unto it” by mere human means (Psalm 139:6).

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, you quoted many scriptures, but some has nothing to do with
The creation account. For example, verses given in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel’s Vision of most impressive—living creatures that was lit up
like fire, and lightning coming out of the fire. Ezekiel was not talking
about the firmament/dome,sky/area/expance above the earth, but
the firmament/area, above/redating from the living creatures.

These verses have nothing to do with Ancient near east cosmology.

-Daniel 4:20

The Dreams and visions king Nebuchadnezzar had in Daniel 4
prophecy, he told the interpretation thereof as recorded.

22 it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness
is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

This verse has nothing to do with Ancient near east cosmology
creation event. It was a dream/prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar/and kingdom.

-Revelation 4:1, Revelation 6:14

A vision into the future, about things to come.
Not sure how this pertains to creation events.

-Isaiah 34:4 is also prophetic language of a future event.
Again Not sure how this pertains to the creation events.

-Genesis 28:12‭-‬13. Jacob had a dream/ a vision, this does not
mean there was a physical ladder Angeles climbed up and down on.

None of these verses above describe Ancient near east cosmology.

The entire material realm operates in accordance with physical laws.
God declares that He is that Lawgiver (James 4:12).

“For the Lord is a God of knowledge …” (1 Samuel 2:3).
“[K]nowledge that is too wonderful for me; Too high,
I cannot attain unto it” by mere human means (Psalm 139:6).

Ezekiel is using the same cosmological literature as Genesis. The Hebrew word raqia, descriptions of the gleaming crystalline pavement above. Just as it is described in Exodus 24:10. That's how it's described in extrabiblical texts too.

Ezekiel also has many references to eden and Genesis. Such as chapters associated with the king of Babylon. Or descriptions of glistening gems.

They absolutely have a lot to do with ANE cosmology.

--------------
Daniel 4:20 describes a tree that can be seen from all the earth.

This same concept is described all over ANE texts. It is known as the Mesopotamian World tree. The text also describes a flat earth, because we know trees can't be seen from everywhere on the planet.

----------
You don't have a response for the Isaiah passages, probably because you don't know what the Bible's talking about.

Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭
[18] Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

The pit is associated with sheol in the Old Testament.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭
[12] like Sheol let us swallow them alive and whole, like those who go down to the Pit.

That's three tiered ancient Near East cosmology, it describes climbing out of sheol and caught in a snare, similar to bring entangled as described elsewhere in Jonah and Samuels poems about being entangled or ensnared in sheol.

‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭22:5‭-‬6‬ ‭
[5] For the waves of death encompassed me; the torrents of perdition assailed me; [6] the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

‭‭Jonah‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭
[2] saying, “I called to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice.
[5] The waters closed in over me; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped around my head

And the text also describes the windows of heaven. Which are also described in the raqia of Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:2, which open amd close to release the waters above.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭7:11‬ ‭
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8:2‬ ‭
[2] the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

"This verse has nothing to do with Ancient near east cosmology' - says someone who hasn't read the Bible very closely.

-------------
and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

The sky can roll up if it's flat like a dome.

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Earth is a flat circle in biblical cosmology.

Genesis 28 assumes a flat earth involving a ladder that can be taken up to heaven. Heaven is "up there".

And then you've ignored many other verses that were noted on my post.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Are you saying that all the other books that describe
ancient Near East cosmology are wrong too?

The problem is they worshiped the creation instead of the creator.
Romans 1:18-25. When Adam and Eve decided to eat the forbidden fruit
they decided to reject revelation/knowledge imparted by God.

1 First they rejected direct revelation from God.
2 They used there own observations.
3 They used experimentation,
4 They used human reasoning.

We should use the Bible as the foundation of all knowledge. Not from
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The one leading to wrong
conclusions entirely, based on a rejection/twisting of Gods Word.
Precisely the ‘scientific’ method [without God] mankind used since.
-

The Religions of the Ancient Near East Cosmology

Part 7 – The Religions of the Ancient Near East – UBS Global Store

thebibletranslator.org

The world of the peoples of the Old Testament, called by scholars
the Ancient Near East, was dominated by hundreds of gods....

"It is important to understand that the Hebrew Bible represents
the official position of the religion of Yahweh. It promotes
Yahwism and it mocks the worship of gods other than Yahweh.

However, in the very act of condemning certain practices of the
common people, it informs us what people were actually doing.

The biblical authors often accuse Israel of worshipping “all the
host or army of heaven,” which refers to the many gods who were
thought to dwell in the sky above. The Hebrew Bible mentions many
of these. Even the veneration of deceased ancestors was a normal
part of popular Israelite religious practice."
-

The conclusions of mankind's “experimentation” and “observation” without
God ? It was the ancient widespread paganization of such physical objects.

Each god was understood to control some natural phenomenon. They were
deceitful men/gods and ruthless and evil over their kingdoms. They also made
the seven classical planets (the seven luminaries) into their gods. Most of these
so called gods was corruption of the biblical antediluvians of Genesis 4-5.

Like the deified line of Cain, closely fits with the “Olympians” of later
Greek mythology, and the plants connected with this and other mythologys.
I will show some connections if/when free time allows.

Believing the biblical account to have been simply similar/dependent on
the early Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian epics for its information is
relying on mans understanding and not on Gods sure words as recorded.
-

Abraham was originally from the Chaldean city of Ur. He grew up in a world
where multiple gods were worshiped, including planetary deities. Abraham, was
an astronomer, and knew that the paths and patterns of heavenly bodies were
constant and predictable. He knew a Creator who established the mathematical
laws by which the heavens perfectly operate.

Josephus wrote: “[Abraham] was the first that ventured to publish this
notion, “That there was but one God, the Creator of the universe …

This his opinion was derived from the irregular phenomena that were visible
both at land and sea, as well as those that happen to the sun and moon, and
all the heavenly bodies, thus:— ‘If [said he] these bodies had power of their
own, they would certainly take care of their own regular motion; but since
they do not preserve such regularity, they make it plain, that in so far as
they cooperate to our advantage, they do it not of their own abilities, but
as they are subservient to him that commands them; to whom alone we ought
justly to offer our honor and thanksgiving’” (Antiquities of the Jews 1.7.1).

Abraham proclaimed the existence of one God, the Creator and Lawgiver. The
Babylonians, with many celestial gods, quarreled with Abraham. Josephus wrote:

“For which doctrines, when the Chaldeans and other people of Mesopotamia raised
a tumult against him, he thought fit to leave that country; and at the command,
and by the assistance of God, he came and lived in the land of Canaan.”

“For whereas the Egyptians were formerly addicted to different customs, and despised
one another’s sacred and accustomed rites, and were very angry one with another on
that account, Abram conferred with each of them. … He communicated to them arithmetic,
and delivered to them the science of astronomy; for, before Abram came into Egypt,
they were unacquainted with those parts of learning; for that science came from the
Chaldeans into Egypt, and from thence to the Greeks also” (Antiquities of the Jews 1.8.2).

God called Abram out from all those Ancient pagan nations, rulers who used knowledge of
cosmology to influnce people, claiming they where gods of creation, and controled it.

 

[Semper-Fi]

I believe that the Bible supports earth sitting
on pillars because that's what it says:

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking;
I steady its columns. Selah Psalms 75:3

Does modern science confirm earth sitting on pillars?
If not Why would the sure Word of God say pillars are
holding up a flat earth, modeled after/like heathen nations?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved:
I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

The word Selah means to pause and contemplate, and its
wise to check other scriptures related, if any available.

Psa 75:2-3 sounds like a future event,
not past Ancient near east cosmology.
-

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's,
And he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

The pillarsH5982
H5982
עַמֻּד עַמּוּד
‛ammûd ‛ammûd
am-mood', am-mood'
From H5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, that is, platform:
- X apiece, pillar.
Total KJV occurrences: 111

H5975
עָמַד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally
and figuratively, intransitively and transitively)........
Total KJV occurrences: 521

The word pillar can be used literally and/or figuratively.

2 a: a supporting, integral, or upstanding member
or part a pillar of society
-

Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Isaiah 9:6 says "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my
God, and they will never have to leave it..." Revelation 3:12
-

If you still believe the Bible supports earth sitting on physical pillars,
then that would conflict with other scriptures, like recorded in Job 26:7.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
"And hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaac Newton posed the theory of gravity, Job said it long before that.

Job 26:7 Commentaries: "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

"a very remarkable instance of anticipation of the discoveries of science'

"Over the empty place - על־תהוּ ‛al-tôhû, "Upon emptiness, or nothing."
That is, without anything to support it.

He hanged the earth on nothing, by creating gravity.

Gravity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible, and science agree earth is Suspended in Space,
and not your interpretation of actual sitting on pillers.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's really the crux of the issue.

I could ask the question, why must it be the case that God would scientifically enlighten ancient peoples, in order to divinely inspired them?

Why must the Bible be scientifically accurate in some futuristic sense, in order for the Bible to be considered truth?

Why can't it's truth be simply, theological?

Would you stop believing in the Bible if you found out that the Biblical authors, who lived 3,000 years ago, weren't aware that earth was a sphere?

I don't think it matters to the theological message of the Bible, whether or not the authors thought earth was flat. Because we still know what the text is conveying.

If it says there are windows in the sky opening and closing to release water, we know that even if the authors believed in a literal solid sky, that wouldn't change the message of the narrative or the theology of what the narrative is communicating.

Does modern science confirm earth sitting on pillars?
If not Why would the sure Word of God say pillars are
holding up a flat earth, modeled after/like heathen nations?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved:
I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

The word Selah means to pause and contemplate, and its
wise to check other scriptures related, if any available.

Psa 75:2-3 sounds like a future event,
not past Ancient near east cosmology.
-

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's,
And he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

The pillarsH5982
H5982
עַמֻּד עַמּוּד
‛ammûd ‛ammûd
am-mood', am-mood'
From H5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, that is, platform:
- X apiece, pillar.
Total KJV occurrences: 111

H5975
עָמַד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally
and figuratively, intransitively and transitively)........
Total KJV occurrences: 521

The word pillar can be used literally and/or figuratively.

2 a: a supporting, integral, or upstanding member
or part a pillar of society
-

Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Isaiah 9:6 says "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my
God, and they will never have to leave it..." Revelation 3:12
-

If you still believe the Bible supports earth sitting on physical pillars,
then that would conflict with other scriptures, like recorded in Job 26:7.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
"And hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaac Newton posed the theory of gravity, Job said it long before that.

Job 26:7 Commentaries: "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

"a very remarkable instance of anticipation of the discoveries of science'

"Over the empty place - על־תהוּ ‛al-tôhû, "Upon emptiness, or nothing."
That is, without anything to support it.

He hanged the earth on nothing, by creating gravity.

Gravity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible, and science agree earth is Suspended in Space,
and not your interpretation of actual sitting on pillers

 

[Job 33:6]

That's really the crux of the issue.

I could ask the question, why must it be the case that God would scientifically enlighten ancient peoples, in order to divinely inspired them?

Why must the Bible be scientifically accurate in some futuristic sense, in order for the Bible to be considered truth?

Why can't it's truth be simply, theological?

Would you stop believing in the Bible if you found out that the Biblical authors, who lived 3,000 years ago, weren't aware that earth was a sphere?

I don't think it matters to the theological message of the Bible, whether or not the authors thought earth was flat. Because we still know what the text is conveying.

If it says there are windows in the sky opening and closing to release water, we know that even if the authors believed in a literal solid sky, that wouldn't change the message of the narrative or the theology of what the narrative is communicating.

Also, the passage there about Earth:

Does modern science confirm earth sitting on pillars?
If not Why would the sure Word of God say pillars are
holding up a flat earth, modeled after/like heathen nations?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved:
I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

The word Selah means to pause and contemplate, and its
wise to check other scriptures related, if any available.

Psa 75:2-3 sounds like a future event,
not past Ancient near east cosmology.
-

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's,
And he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

The pillarsH5982
H5982
עַמֻּד עַמּוּד
‛ammûd ‛ammûd
am-mood', am-mood'
From H5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, that is, platform:
- X apiece, pillar.
Total KJV occurrences: 111

H5975
עָמַד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally
and figuratively, intransitively and transitively)........
Total KJV occurrences: 521

The word pillar can be used literally and/or figuratively.

2 a: a supporting, integral, or upstanding member
or part a pillar of society
-

Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Isaiah 9:6 says "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my
God, and they will never have to leave it..." Revelation 3:12
-

If you still believe the Bible supports earth sitting on physical pillars,
then that would conflict with other scriptures, like recorded in Job 26:7.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
"And hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaac Newton posed the theory of gravity, Job said it long before that.

Job 26:7 Commentaries: "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

"a very remarkable instance of anticipation of the discoveries of science'

"Over the empty place - על־תהוּ ‛al-tôhû, "Upon emptiness, or nothing."
That is, without anything to support it.

He hanged the earth on nothing, by creating gravity.

Gravity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible, and science agree earth is Suspended in Space,
and not your interpretation of actual sitting on pillers.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

OE creationism doesn't work because if OE was in fact the case then you'd have to admit that the devil and his fallen angels and demons are all billions of years old.

Would God really allow his nemesis to live for billions of years? I don't think so.

And what would the devil have been doing for all those years? Tempting monkeys to sin? makes no sense!

That's certainly a new angle on the subject, at least for me. You ask, why would God allow His nemesis to live for billions of years? One could also ask, why would God allow sinful man to live in sin for however long man has been on this earth. And then you ask what He was doing for billions of years with a remark about monkeys. That leads me to assume you are of the belief, as scientists theorize, that the earth is billions of years old and also that monkeys have been around for all that time. I will admit that I have no reason to doubt or believe either of those proposals. What I do believe is Genesis 1:1 which says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Since Christ never told us we have to figure out if the rest of the story is supposed to be a literal historical chronology or simply an illustrative text, which ever I believe doesn't affect my ability to serve God or to follow the teachings of Christ. I do believe that it's probably more likely to be an illustrative telling. This is belied by the science as well as a critical reading of the text. For just one example, verse 5 says, "God called the light day, and the darkness he called night." It seems highly unlikely that God would give any of His creation a name based on any particular human language.

On the other hand, it is also possible that it is a true historical telling. That the earth is between 6000 and 10,000 years old and God just created it in such a manner as to fool all mans efforts to date it. With God, all things are possible.

That said, I think that, as Christians, we should spend our time and efforts on doing what Christ taught us to do and leave those questions that don't affect our ability to follow Him or to worship God until we can ask them in Heaven. It's OK not to know everything as long as we know what God commanded and what Christ taught and put those into action. Remember, all the time we spend wondering about or debating those things that are irrelevant to that end is time wasted not doing them. Or as the old saying goes, If you're rocking the boat, you're wasting rowing time.

 

[Job 33:6]

Does modern science confirm earth sitting on pillars?
If not Why would the sure Word of God say pillars are
holding up a flat earth, modeled after/like heathen nations?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved:
I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

The word Selah means to pause and contemplate, and its
wise to check other scriptures related, if any available.

Psa 75:2-3 sounds like a future event,
not past Ancient near east cosmology.
-

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's,
And he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

The pillarsH5982
H5982
עַמֻּד עַמּוּד
‛ammûd ‛ammûd
am-mood', am-mood'
From H5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, that is, platform:
- X apiece, pillar.
Total KJV occurrences: 111

H5975
עָמַד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally
and figuratively, intransitively and transitively)........
Total KJV occurrences: 521

The word pillar can be used literally and/or figuratively.

2 a: a supporting, integral, or upstanding member
or part a pillar of society
-

Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Isaiah 9:6 says "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my
God, and they will never have to leave it..." Revelation 3:12
-

If you still believe the Bible supports earth sitting on physical pillars,
then that would conflict with other scriptures, like recorded in Job 26:7.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
"And hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaac Newton posed the theory of gravity, Job said it long before that.

Job 26:7 Commentaries: "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

"a very remarkable instance of anticipation of the discoveries of science'

"Over the empty place - על־תהוּ ‛al-tôhû, "Upon emptiness, or nothing."
That is, without anything to support it.

He hanged the earth on nothing, by creating gravity.

Gravity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible, and science agree earth is Suspended in Space,
and not your interpretation of actual sitting on pillers.

Does modern science confirm earth sitting on pillars?
If not Why would the sure Word of God say pillars are
holding up a flat earth, modeled after/like heathen nations?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved:
I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

The word Selah means to pause and contemplate, and its
wise to check other scriptures related, if any available.

Psa 75:2-3 sounds like a future event,
not past Ancient near east cosmology.
-

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's,
And he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

The pillarsH5982
H5982
עַמֻּד עַמּוּד
‛ammûd ‛ammûd
am-mood', am-mood'
From H5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, that is, platform:
- X apiece, pillar.
Total KJV occurrences: 111

H5975
עָמַד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally
and figuratively, intransitively and transitively)........
Total KJV occurrences: 521

The word pillar can be used literally and/or figuratively.

2 a: a supporting, integral, or upstanding member
or part a pillar of society
-

Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Isaiah 9:6 says "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my
God, and they will never have to leave it..." Revelation 3:12
-

If you still believe the Bible supports earth sitting on physical pillars,
then that would conflict with other scriptures, like recorded in Job 26:7.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
"And hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Isaac Newton posed the theory of gravity, Job said it long before that.

Job 26:7 Commentaries: "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

"a very remarkable instance of anticipation of the discoveries of science'

"Over the empty place - על־תהוּ ‛al-tôhû, "Upon emptiness, or nothing."
That is, without anything to support it.

He hanged the earth on nothing, by creating gravity.

Gravity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible, and science agree earth is Suspended in Space,
and not your interpretation of actual sitting on pillers.

To clarify on the above video, the passage notes that the Lord stretches out the north over tohu, And of course this tohu term is used for the Earth in Genesis 1: 2. And it doesn't actually mean nothing, what it means is something that is formless.

And then it describes earth being stretched out over beliymah, which are the lower waters. So it's describing heaven over water, Earth over water.

And the Hebrew term for North is tsaphon, which is the meeting place of the gods.

The context is ancient Near East and it has nothing to do with NASA or gravity or spacetime expanse or anything like that.