why is Oneness unorthodox/frowned upon?

[Winepress777]

The doctrine of trinity does not negate the concept of one God, for as Metropolitan Kallistos aware expresses it, the Trinity or Godhead is three persons existing in a union of perfect, absolute love. We are called upon, His Eminence goes on to say, to make our homes, our families, our church, and so on, a loving icon of the Trinity. But three persons does not mean three gods. We are not tritheists. The three persons of the Trinity are consubstantial; they have one essence, and that divine essence is incomprehensible and unknowable. We know of the persons of the Trinity only through the uncreated energies of God, which are knowable, just as we know the sun by its rays.

So you say. But in reality, three never equals One. And no man's "rational" is fit to substitute the plain scriptural understanding that God is One.

 

[Albion]

Three??? So to you, God is not One??

Whoa. The point is that we Trinitarians DO believe God is one, but the Bible--his word--also identifies Christ and the Holy Spirit as that God, too.

 

[Albion]

So you say. But in reality, three never equals One.

Of course it does. There are innumerable examples. Three strikes equals one strikeout. Three leafs equals one shamrock. And opponents of the Trinity have produced their own 'three is one' explanation, too; it's just not the same one.

 

[Tigger45]

Of course. Christ is the Father who Came into Jesus His Son, at His Baptism. Then two became one. Jesus is the Husband Married to New Jerusalem believers, producing sons of God. He who sees Jesus sees the Father, just as Jesus described to Philip. Basic scriptures. This is the basic Gospel. A "trinity" or "polytheism" is a bizarre concept for a "Christian" and I don't see where such an idea can give Him to know the One Only True Living God.

When Jesus Christ was being baptized who is speaking from heaven?

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

 

[Winepress777]

When Jesus Christ was being baptized who is speaking from heaven?

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Christ of course.

I think you are simply volunteering that you don't believe that the One God is omnipresent? That would explain a polytheist's attempt to divide Him up into multiples...

 

[Albion]

Christ of course.

I think you are simply volunteering that you don't believe that the One God is omnipresent? That would explain a polytheist's attempt to divide Him up into multiples...

Jesus was throwing his voice? And saying how pleased he was with himself? Is that your contention?

 

[Tigger45]

Christ of course.

I think you are simply volunteering that you don't believe that the One God is omnipresent? That would explain a polytheist's attempt to divide Him up into multiples...

So why would the Son of God refer to Himself as Son? That doesn't make sense.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

When Jesus Christ was being baptized who is speaking from heaven?

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Christ of course.

I think you are simply volunteering that you don't believe that the One God is omnipresent? That would explain a polytheist's attempt to divide Him up into multiples...

Winepress, as a 'Oneness' adherent, you haven't been taught very well. From a oneness perspective, it is the Father that is speaking here, addressing His Son. Some have taught that it is only John that is a witness to the voice as a "confirmation" of who Christ is. Of course God is omnipresent, but to adhere to the idea that God is one, He cannot speak from heaven if he is bodily on earth. That is the traditional oneness understanding - that the Father left heaven to reside in Christ.

That's just one of the things I had to ask when I left the UPC - how can the Father speak from heaven if He is present in Christ on earth?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Of course. Christ is the Father who Came into Jesus His Son, at His Baptism. Then two became one. Jesus is the Husband Married to New Jerusalem believers, producing sons of God. He who sees Jesus sees the Father, just as Jesus described to Philip. Basic scriptures. This is the basic Gospel. A "trinity" or "polytheism" is a bizarre concept for a "Christian" and I don't see where such an idea can give Him to know the One Only True Living God.

God was in Christ at His conception, not his baptism. Fully God and fully man. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Winepress777]

Winepress, as a 'Oneness' adherent, you haven't been taught very well. From a oneness perspective, it is the Father that is speaking here, addressing His Son. Some have taught that it is only John that is a witness to the voice as a "confirmation" of who Christ is. Of course God is omnipresent, but to adhere to the idea that God is one, He cannot speak from heaven if he is bodily on earth. That is the traditional oneness understanding - that the Father left heaven to reside in Christ.

That's just one of the things I had to ask when I left the UPC - how can the Father speak from heaven if He is present in Christ on earth?

I have never been in the UPC and haven't learned from any man what I posted. There is nothing I don't know of my One God who is Jesus Christ the LORD. He has revealed Himself to me out of His Word and by His Holy Spirit. And the Christ in Jesus was His Father, and He is My Father. Thank you for your ideas though. Of course the Father was in Heaven. The Son was in Heaven when He said that also, while standing on the earth, did you know that?

(Joh 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Father isn't EVER somewhere "else" other than where the son is. That is flat bad blitherance.

(Joh 14:7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

(Joh 14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.


(Joh 14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[Winepress777]

God was in Christ at His conception, not his baptism. Fully God and fully man. Curiouser and curiouser.

Jesus wasn't "Christed" until He was born of God by Resurrection. That was what His baptism signified. That is WHEN He was Born of God. Prior to that, He was considered of the seed of David, born of the flesh. Here, let God show you...

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Everything in it's order of procession. You are putting the cart before the horse in your ideas which is why you are confused in your perception of these scriptures. Here is a good place for you to start to see how things progress in the Godly order of His Manifestation...

(1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Once the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ opens your eyes to this mystery, then You will know as you are known Then you will know the One True Living God. His Name is Jesus. Our Lord. Our Messiah. Our Father. Our Comforter. The Husband of the New Jerusalem Bride. He is Beautiful. He is One. And I Love Him with all my heart and soul and mind.

 

[ken777]

I have never been in the UPC and haven't learned from any man what I posted.

I am persuaded that if any person read the Bible without any previous teaching they would never come up with Trinity doctrine on their own. The most natural assumption is that God reveals Himself in 3 different roles, just as a human takes on different roles. The "difficulties" about God talking to Himself are all easily resolved by understanding humanity addressing divinity.

.

 

[ken777]

Of course God is omnipresent, but to adhere to the idea that God is one, He cannot speak from heaven if he is bodily on earth.

The voice came from the Dove, the Holy Spirit in a physical form, the same Holy Spirit who was the Father of Jesus.

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mark 1:10-11)

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)


.​

 

[com7fy8]

The bible never says God is not one. Twice it refers to God as one and never as three. This makes no sense to me. Apostolic's are persecuted for this belief and to me It makes no sense.

And there are oneness people who can persecute someone for becoming one who believes in the Trinity. Ones claiming to be oneness can tell you you have chosen to go to hell, if you change to believing in the Trinity. I am not saying you or all oneness people do this or would, but I have heard this talk.

For one thing, if our Father is the same One as Jesus, this would mean Jesus is His own Son. But there are oneness people who can give you an explanation about this.

It is like how gold is only one gold, but it can be in more than one form . . . in the personal form of a father, and gold can at the same time be in the form of a son, and gold can flow and make more forms.

But, "of course", God is not gold, but "love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). And you can't have real love, if you have only one person, I offer

God is our Father; "Father" is the name of a Person of family caring and sharing love.

And Jesus is the Son, another family Person, of love.

A human family that is one family has more than one person in the family.

Man, made in the image of God, is a family being, with three basic persons > father, child, and mother . . . in the image of God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives birth to and brings up God's children. And the Holy Spirit prepares us, the Bride, for our Groom Jesus. Bridal preparation is what I think usually a mother does. So, even though the Holy Spirit is called "He", in my Bible, and is not called "the Mother", still the Holy Spirit does what a family love being does in a mothering role.

And the Bible says, "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." (Ephesians 5:1)

So, the Trinity is not just an explanation, but our example of how to love as family. There are oneness people and trinitarians who love their doctrine but they do not love one another; and they can threaten people with hell, in order to make themselves look superior and scare people into staying with their way of being trinitarian or oneness. But look at how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy loved the Thessalonians > 1 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, Jesus makes us one with God > "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) > so that, in our spiritual union in oneness with God we can forgive, "even as God in Christ forgave you." Is this included in the oneness that you teach??

 

[ken777]

A human family that is one family has more than one person in the family.
Man, made in the image of God, is a family being, with three basic persons > father, child, and mother . . . in the image of God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I agree with your point that both sides are capable of saying some rather uncharitable things about each other.

If we use the family analogy I think we are leaning towards separate persons and polytheism.

Made in the image of God, man is one being who is made up of body, soul & spirit.
We can also see that the one man can be a son, a husband and a father.

.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

The voice came from the Dove, the Holy Spirit in a physical form, the same Holy Spirit who was the Father of Jesus.

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mark 1:10-11)

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35).​

This is new. I have never before heard that one. And I have heard from the best "Oneness" teachers around on that very passage.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I agree with your point that both sides are capable of saying some rather uncharitable things about each other.

If we use the family analogy I think we are leaning towards separate persons and polytheism.

Made in the image of God, man is one being who is made up of body, soul & spirit.
We can also see that the one man can be a son, a husband and a father.

You're using a Trinitarian example to explain Oneness? Curiouser and curiouser...
As for the "Polytheism" thing - I'll admit it was something I had to struggle with, because oneness people beat the idea so hard into your psyche about the Trinity being "polytheistic". But the modern arguments for and against are fairly recent - early 20th century Pentecostalism. Once I looked into the history of the whole thing, and learned from ancient history of the true faith of the Church, "struggles" seem to disappear.

 

[ken777]

You're using a Trinitarian example to explain Oneness? Curiouser and curiouser...
As for the "Polytheism" thing - I'll admit it was something I had to struggle with, because oneness people beat the idea so hard into your psyche about the Trinity being "polytheistic". But the modern arguments for and against are fairly recent - early 20th century Pentecostalism. Once I looked into the history of the whole thing, and learned from ancient history of the true faith of the Church, "struggles" seem to disappear.

I think there is a fundamental difference in the example of a family of three people and the example of one person who has three roles.

Church history is very interesting and the last 500 years have seen the Church return to its original roots through many significant developments in understanding: the Reformation, the Wesleyan movement, and the Pentecostal movement. Each of these movements has been responsible for bringing millions into the kingdom of God.

.

 

[Wgw]

So you say. But in reality, three never equals One. And no man's "rational" is fit to substitute the plain scriptural understanding that God is One.

If there were a plain scriptural understanding that refuted the Trinity, then most self identified Christians would reject belief in the Trinity. However, on the contrary, the Sabellian doctrine you espouse was demolished using scriptural arguments in works such as the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis, and the classic exposition of Christian theology, On the Incarnation, by St. Athanasius.

Which takes us to a key point: Athanasius compiled the list of 27 books that comprise your New Testament; he was the first to publish the modern scriptural canon, and thus must be regarded as divinely inspired insofar as he is the de facto editor of that anthology we call the New Testament. And he rejected your doctrine. I dont understand why you rely on a scriptural canon compiled by the strongest opponent of your theology, and cite it as proof of the truths you hold dear, when there are a wealth of other books that many considered scripture, that St. Athanasius rejected, which can be read in support of your doctrine with greater ease.

 

[he-man]

This usually turns out to be the case, but it's often hard to discern whether that's the result of misunderstanding, misinformation, or simply willful misrepresentation.

The idea of a co-equal Trinity, however, offers a reasonable means of expressing the inexpressible;
but it must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word " Trinity" appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.
The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the mysterious and undefined existence of the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One, and the Apostles' Creed, which is the earliest of the formulated articles of Christian faith, does not mention it. Aristotle, On the Heavens, I.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him.
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.