Why God created some when he knew they would experience hell?

[ArmyMatt]

no problem.

 

[icxn]

How do you interpret Romans Chapter 9 in relation to the OP's question: Why God created some when he knew they would experience hell?

God creates one as a vessel for beauty and another for menial use. So, does that mean some were created for Hell?

God has mercy upon whomever he wills and hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

After hearing that some are not created to be a "vessel for beauty," we are not to ask, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?." We are the "molded" and are not to say, “Why have you made me thus?"

Romans Chapter 9 seems to indicate that there is less "free will" involved in our fate, than what you are claiming.

It would be helpful if you would take this passage verse by verse and give the Orthodox interpretation.

In the Philokalia of Origen there's a section devoted to Free Will that, for the most part, deals with the questions/verses posted above. It was compiled by St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil the Great so it expresses Orthodox belief.

Forgive me for not offering my abridged version, too much work at the office these days.

 

[Anna Scott]

In the Philokalia of Origen there's a section devoted to Free Will that, for the most part, deals with the questions/verses posted above. It was compiled by St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil the Great so it expresses Orthodox belief.

Forgive me for not offering my abridged version, too much work at the office these days.

Thank you icxn!

 

[prodromos]

Evil is a thing that you just defined. If God only creates that which is good, how could He then create man with the potential for evil?

God created us with potential, so we could freely choose to love Him. If He created us incapable of choice then we would be slaves, not sons and daughters, so there would be no way we could become joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
If we can freely choose to love God, it follows that we can freely choose the opposite, otherwise, once again, we are simply slaves or robots.
If you've ever seen the Eddie Murphy movie, "Coming to America", a kinda good analogy would be the woman who was raised from childhood to be his queen.

He finds he can't have a relationship with her because her devotion to him is not her choice.

 

[SingularityOne]

In the Philokalia of Origen there's a section devoted to Free Will that, for the most part, deals with the questions/verses posted above. It was compiled by St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil the Great so it expresses Orthodox belief.

Forgive me for not offering my abridged version, too much work at the office these days.

Where does it say that it was compiled by St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil the Great? I'm interested in reading this as well and would like to make sure as I'm skeptical of transfers of books into webpages online sometimes.

 

[icxn]

Where does it say that it was compiled by St Gregory the Theologian and St Basil the Great? I'm interested in reading this as well and would like to make sure as I'm skeptical of transfers of books into webpages online sometimes.

I have the Greek text, which says that in the very first paragraph. Here's the Wikipedia entry that confirms it too:

Origen's Philokalia is an anthology of Origen's texts, probably compiled by Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzen. It was probably compiled during their monastic retreat in Pontus in the late 350s to early 360s, or in any event early in their careers and before their own theological writings.[1] The complete text of so much of Origen's work is lost, and consequently the extracts in the anthology are valuable today.[2] It should not be confused with the medieval Philokalia.​

The work is divided into twenty-seven chapters, with titles given by the compilers. About a fifth of it is taken from Contra Celsum.

Opinion is divided about who compiled the Philokalia. Basil and Gregory are described as the compilers in the Greek text itself,[3] and this is generally accepted.​

 

[SingularityOne]

I have the Greek text, which says that in the very first paragraph. Here's the Wikipedia entry that confirms it too:

Origen's Philokalia is an anthology of Origen's texts, probably compiled by Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzen. It was probably compiled during their monastic retreat in Pontus in the late 350s to early 360s, or in any event early in their careers and before their own theological writings.[1] The complete text of so much of Origen's work is lost, and consequently the extracts in the anthology are valuable today.[2] It should not be confused with the medieval Philokalia.​

The work is divided into twenty-seven chapters, with titles given by the compilers. About a fifth of it is taken from Contra Celsum.

Opinion is divided about who compiled the Philokalia. Basil and Gregory are described as the compilers in the Greek text itself,[3] and this is generally accepted.​

Thank you!

 

[FireDragon76]

He loves them. John 3:19.

St Isaac of Syria calls hell the scourge of God's love.

That's never really made sense to me, either. Instead of threatening God's omnibenevolence, as Calvinism does, it threatens God's omnipotence.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's never really made sense to me, either. Instead of threatening God's omnibenevolence, as Calvinism does, it threatens God's omnipotence.

how is that a threat? could you clarify?

 

[SingularityOne]

This may be helpful in the understanding.

By Abbot Tryphon

 

[FireDragon76]

how is that a threat? could you clarify?

I'm saying it's not a thoroughly satisfying answer, since it implies that God is unable to save those in Hell. He wants to, he just can't. Whereas Calvinism implies that God is only willing to save the elect.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm saying it's not a thoroughly satisfying answer, since it implies that God is unable to save those in Hell. He wants to, he just can't.

because the salvation He offers (and that He is) is what makes hell, hell.

 

[FireDragon76]

because the salvation He offers (and that He is) is what makes hell, hell.

Sounds like doublespeak to me. Salvation is Hell, Hell is salvation. In other words, the burden is on the individual to reconcile themselves to an amoral reality. One hardly needs a Gospel to do that. A bit of Camus or Sartre would be just as good.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sounds like doublespeak to me. Salvation is Hell, Hell is salvation. In other words, the burden is on the individual to reconcile themselves to an amoral reality. One hardly needs a Gospel to do that. A bit of Camus or Sartre would be just as good.

no, hell is God's salvation/presence/love/light in the face of the sinner who doesn't want God. it's not reconciling to an amoral reality. it's rejecting God Who is morality.

 

[FireDragon76]

no, hell is God's salvation/presence/love/light in the face of the sinner who doesn't want God. it's not reconciling to an amoral reality. it's rejecting God Who is morality.

Morality is an abstract concept, not a person.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Morality is an abstract concept, not a person.

no, Christ is our morality, since He is the telos of all virtue. morality is not an abstract concept, but a concrete Person.

 

[FireDragon76]

no, Christ is our morality, since He is the telos of all virtue. morality is not an abstract concept, but a concrete Person.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that Jesus embody's morality. Otherwise we risk implying that non-Christians (and I also assume, non-Orthodox) have no access to real morality.

 

[icxn]

I believe it would be more accurate to say that Jesus embody's morality. Otherwise we risk implying that non-Christians (and I also assume, non-Orthodox) have no access to real morality.

Or perhaps we can draw another conclusion from the fact that they do have some measure of morality (Romans 2:14-15), namely that they haven't completely lost their image and likeness to God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe it would be more accurate to say that Jesus embody's morality. Otherwise we risk implying that non-Christians (and I also assume, non-Orthodox) have no access to real morality.

no, we don't run that risk. Christ is our morality because it is in His image, which is never lost, that we are all made.

 

[ChristianGirl_96]

To strengthen our faith. My faith initially crumbled then strengthened after my son was diagnosed with a non lethal birth defect almost 3 years ago when I was pregnant. I sat at my doctors office wrestling with my faith as I pondered what to do next. I questioned everything.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit was trying to teach me a lesson that day. I overcame the temptation to leave the Church. Everyone experiences some sort of faith battles. This is part and parcel of believing in any faith.