Why force others to live by your religion?

[Umaro]

"Do you trust science over the words of the God that created science? Unbelievable!
Anything written in the bible is true and trustworthy, over all!"

I'll keep that in mind next time I run into a talking donkey, a man walking on water, or hear voices commanding me to genocide.

 

[soulsearching1]

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

Yes, it does. And it's things like that, that make me embarassed to be a Christian. While we are supposed to share the Gospel with non-believers, I am a firm believer in allowing others to make the choice for themselves. When I chose to become a Christian, it was not at the insistence of anyone else. I came to it of my own free will. And I am probably one of the few who takes issue with the current administration trying to regulate everyone's morals with theology that not everyone believes in. Separation of church and state needs to be maintained right now, or it will only cause the country to split even more than it already is. As much as Bush et al would like to make the USA a full Christian nation, it is going to be VERY hard to do so. Because we have come so far in terms of making this a pluralist society (which is not always a bad thing- just look at the countries who legislate by faith; they're a mess), people are going to revolt if those rights are taken away. We'd have to completely wipe the slate clean. Seriously, the world would have to be destroyed by a nuclear bomb, have only a handful of Christians survive and then implement a world where Jesus is the only answer anyone has. And even then, it probably wouldn't work. God's plan was foiled in the beginning.

 

[beth34]

You say "Who's forcing you to do anything?" many times, and I'm hoping you are not just ignoring my question. Well, I'll go down the list. There is a huge movement to outlaw gay marraige, so that's one. There's also a huge movement to legislate a requirement to teach creationism and have prayer in schools, just look to Kansas for example. Then there's the Christmas thing. The boycott was one instance where a store was strongarmed into saying it.

So, all these laws are, in fact, forcing non-christians to live by christian law, or at least strongly attempting to.

Well, for one, evolution is taught in schools, atleast where I live. And if evolution can be taught, creationism has a right to be taught also. And secondly, how did Merry Christmas get turned into happy holidays anyway? Isn't Christmas a holiday that was set aside for christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ? If you want to change the saying "Merry Christmas" then do you want to change the "Easter" holiday word? This just all confuses me. Sorry.

 

[Umaro]

"And secondly, how did Merry Christmas get turned into happy holidays anyway? Isn't Christmas a holiday that was set aside for christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ?"

Christmas is not the only holiday going on at that time. There are at least several more major ones from other religions. Saying happy holidays includes these as well. It's not attacking Christmas, it is including others as well as Christmas.

 

[BigNorsk]

Freedom of religion is in the Constitution but it should be noted that it has never been taken to mean that that freedom is absolute. For instance certain religions use human sacrifice, that has never been allowed whether or not it is based on religious beliefs.

There are many branches of Christians, and there are many who woefully confuse the earthly kingdoms and the heavenly ones. Especially when a pietistic or legalistic movement (such as Prohibition) gets going in full strength, it is likely to spill over into government and have the government legislate it's morality. And it should be noted that often that morality is not at all biblical, such as the already noted prohibition. You still have people so wrapped up in it that they deny Jesus made water into wine, or that the Last Supper used wine and so on, but understand that their position isn't based on the Bible.

Now I as someone who can see the great harm that mixing the state and the church always ends up doing to the church and staunchly opposed to the schools teaching my children what to believe or to expect or permit the school to lead them in or require them to participate in worship. Most people who complain about prayer being "outlawed" in school actually are mistaken. What is not permitted is for the school to lead the students, anyone who stops a student from his or her personal prayers is violating the Constitution and is probably acting through a misunderstanding of court decisions.

It doesn't work to try and pass laws to make people Christian, people are saved by grace, not law. At the same time laws act as a framework for people to live together, hopefully in peace and harmony if not absolute agreement.

Often you find laws are put in place by governments for no other reason than to keep peace. Governments don't like to see big clashing demonstrations and civil disorder. I think you see that operating in some of the other areas you question.

One thing to keep in mind when forming your opinions of what Christians believe is that the news media loves extremists and frankly a lot of the people that you see on the news that seem to speak for christians are rather out on the edge of christianity. So please keep that in mind and if you desire a trustworthy explanation of Christianity you would be better served to look to the bible.

Marv

 

[prophecystudent]

I am doing a quick reply rather than reproduce the long list of complaints by the original poster.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You have a free choice. You can vote for any candidate you wish. If that candidate espouses your view of what is right and good for society then you vote for them.

We do the same. We attempt to elect officials that will represent our view of what is good for our society. You have the freedom to do the same.

For anyone to say that the US is not a Christian nation, at least as viewed by the founding fathers, is less than honest. '

The basic tenets of our government are based on Judeo-Christian values. The documents written by the founders are full of references to "the Almighty", the Supreme Creator, etc.

What is the document that says, "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS."?

You take issue with instances you seem to dislike and then blame those situations on Christians.

We do not force our views on you, you are free to do exactly as you please. If you want to commit suicide, do so, no one is stopping you. We consider it a sin, but we are not the ones doing it.

Fred

 

[JoyforJESUS]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

If you think that the United States is forcing you to practice a religion that you do not believe in or agree with, why don't you go somewhere that IN FACT force people to live by the Laws of a Religion, Like IRAN under the Taliban.

Then you will know we do not force religion, here in the United States.

 

[FrAnthony]

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

If we give in to your viewpoint, then how is that not "forcing" me to believe like you? Besides, the definition of marraige is not 100% support by Christianity. For example, marraige in this country is considered more like a contract which terminates upon death. In Orthodox Christianity, marraige is viewed as a Sacrament which is not dissolved by death. Bottom line, a neutral ground must be found and the majority usually rules.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

Again, in this case, we need neutral ground and the majority rules. This is actually a very divisive question. For my part, I am of the opinion that God gives life and it should not be destroyed. I pray I am never tested in the way you describe, because I'm sure it's not easy and I'm confident God is merciful.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Neutral ground, and majority rules on what can and can't be taught.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Again...neutral ground, majority rules. I think there should be more prayer in school...but, I can't have my way. A moment of silence allows the most flexible way for people to pray or not pray in whatever manner they choose without going to any extreme.

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

Nope. Not in my opinion.

 

[prophecystudent]

"Yes, in fact God does..Now WHERE is your question?"

To me, saying God made the universe is the same as answering the question with the word Magic. I don't think either exists, and there is nothing except the Bible to show God did it.

OK, Can we assume that you know enough about science etc to answer a couple of questions?

Are you familiar with the law of physics that allows something to spring into existence from nothing?

If so, then please provide the source for your response.

My question stems from the basis used by evolutionists to explain how we all crawled out of the primeval slime and evolved into what now populates the earth.

They seem to base their idea on the big bang theory. That theory holds that sufficient quantities of hydrogen were drawn together, from throughout the entire universe, until that hydrogen was dense enough to trigger a thermo-nuclear explosion during which all matter as we know it today was created. (short version).

A law of physics regarding the distribution of gas particles is that in a vacuum and without outside influence those particles will DISPERSE until they are equally spaced within the space allowed.

This means that some force must have drawn all those hydrogen atoms across those hundreds of billions of light years distance into one place. That would require an incomprehensibly large magnetic force (in one place).

Where did that magnetic force come from? What created it? Remember that both the magnetic force and the hydrogen atoms sprang into existence from nothing. There is that pesky law again.

The laws of physics make it clear that the THEORIES put forth by the evolutionists CANNOT BE EXPLAINED BY SCIENCE. They cannot be reproduced, as some who have posted seem to think proves that ID cannot be true.

The case for ID is infinitely more likely than the case for the big bang theory, or any other explanation that does not explain how the fundamental building blocks came into existence.


You can believe, or not. Your choice. We Christians believe (as is our right) that a divine God created our universe and all that it contains.

As for me, until someone can provide the answers to the basic question above, I will continue to believe in ID and present my case in its defense. I have had this discussion with highly trained teachers of physics and they cannot provide the answers, either.

Fred

 

[Stinker]

It is becoming more and more difficult to ignore all the transitional scientific finds. It's a wonder that so many parents do not want their children left out on part or all this because some want the Genesis account of creation to only be taught or share equal time with the theory of Evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossils
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Sahelanthropus_tchadensis

 

[Zeena]

Questions such as meaning of Life, co-existance theologies and rationalities aught to be left to the individual parents!

Just ike our Governments have no place in the 'bedrooms of America', they also aught not to force-feed thier citizens children theories relating to origins and sociologies.. IMO..

Reading, mathematics and general sciences are sufficeint.
I do not even agree they should be teaching our children pertaining to physical education! :LOL

 

[Umaro]

" Are you familiar with the law of physics that allows something to spring into existence from nothing?"

Science does not claim to know the answer to where everything came from. Also, evolution does not claim where we came from initially either. It is a theory supported by evidence showing we moved from simpler life to more complex life over millions of years. There is nothing about where matter came from. I'd take "I don't know" over "An unobservable God did it" any day. The "God did it" argument works for anything from magic to any of the thousand+ other Gods that have been said to exist.

 

[Robinsegg]

How is it that on this planet, life went from simple to complex when the rest of the universe moves from order to chaos w/o an outside influence?

Rachel

 

[FrAnthony]

If you think that the United States is forcing you to practice a religion that you do not believe in or agree with, why don't you go somewhere that IN FACT force people to live by the Laws of a Religion, Like IRAN under the Taliban.

Then you will know we do not force religion, here in the United States.

I think you have a great point here. At least America, which is primarily made up of Christians, is trying to accomodate other beliefs and grant them freedom of religion. This cannot be said about many other countries where Christianity is in the minority...it's quite the opposite...thanks for mentioning this!

 

[Brentbradly]

"Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon."

Ok point 1, I understand what he is saying. Where do we get the man + man or viceversa is bad, usally its a religious background. Its nothing new to our world, homosexuality has exsisted long before christ. The government does not honor the gay marriage, when people try to change the law to allow it, the resisters are mainly christians in our society, so quite easy to get mad at them. Trying to outlaw gay marriage, there was a post this just saying you cant outlaw what is already illegal, true but they are trying to ammend the constition to prevent it from ever being allowed. Way I see the constitution, we have the right to pursue happiness. If two men want to marry, it doesnt directly involve, let them do what makes them happy. Christians shouldn't interfere.

Polygamy on the other hand just became a norm since the roman empire made it a norm. Christians accepted the change, nothing actually came down from god to change the rule. Its just a society thing, cant really back that comment up.

"Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it."

I can see his point here too, right to die and abortion are always fought by a great number of christians. The taking of a life yours or anothers has always been a religious rebellion in the making. I agree though, if a non christian wants to die, who are we to stop him. So its a big time sin, then someone else will be there to punish him when reawakes right?

"Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right."

Me...I believe in both, why cant god use some evolution to make the universe. Problem is most big educators and scientist dismiss the idea of religion because there are alot to pick on to a highly logical person to just go along with. So if you are trying to get a scientist to believe that god make everything, the next logical answer is...who made god. So the people that write textbooks dont buy into the creation theory too much, how do you teach something that doesnt have alot of words in the educational books. And schools dont have time to teach directly from all the different texts of the bible, korean, and other major religions.

"Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?"

Not too much here, most schools might have 5 minutes of quiet time, most dont actively pray outloud in school. Five minutes might be a waste of educational time, but it doesnt highly interfere with the rights on non believers.

"Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites.""

Cant say too much here either, I always thought that happy holidays covers a season of multiple holidays, I really dont see too many christians boycotting. I live in the bible belt of the US, and I dont hear of problems like that around here.

"Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?""

I see what he is trying to say, if your gay and you want to marry, or your a cancer dying person in hospice care and you want to end it all, or you have parkinsons and you mad because stem cell research isnt allowed. When you flip on the TV and it shows coverage on a boycott against one of the mentioned you see some hardcore signs that are sometimes even hateful with christian overtones. "God hates gays" for example.

We can pick on some details of the orginal message, but I think most of us understand the point he is trying to make. In theory, we would like to be a nation that seperates church and state, but in retrospect since this is a nation by the people for the people, if most of the people are christians, the government shall reflect with christian style laws. Less than 50 years ago malcom X and Martin luther king fought for civil rights, not too long before that we had slaves. Today we look back and say we were wrong, who is to say that we will look back at today and see how wrong we are about gay rights or whatever.

God gives us the right to choose, We should give others that right too.

ONE MORE SIDE NOTE, I hate when people quickly throw in a one or two line message about god is going to judge. It is COMPLETELY useless to the topic.

 

[JoeNah]

First of all, I love everyone that has posted here. But the posts have only been concerned about the here and now. What is going to happen to you after you have taken your final breath? That is what Christianity is all about. Jesus Christ came down to earth, specifically to die, to take the punishment we deserve. Jesus did not come down here to preach pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by-when-you-die. He came to save people from an eternity in Hell. Please, please, please consider this! Yes, Hell is real!

 

[Robinsegg]

Actually, it's my belief that Jesus came to give us life abundant and free . . . both here and now and for after death. He wants a relationship with us now, not just after we die.
-R

 

[kulenok]

No, no, see school teaches EVOLUTION rather then creationism, and a cristian is forced to learn it to pass science, regaurdless of religion. W teach marrige from a christian viewpoint, well because the christian viewpoint makes the most sense. It seems the more right one. There is no prayer time in public schools here, I don't know where you got that,but here, if you bring a bible to school, everyone will laugh at you "oh, look at the jesus freak" blah blah blah. If you tellthem that the bible is a good book, you get in trouble with the principal "your pushing your religion on others" blah blah blah. THAT is why I'm homeschooled, I have HAD it with public schools. Another thing is, they taught evolution freely, without as much as mentioning any transitional species or anything like that. "This evolved from that, and you evolved from this, and if you get anything lower then an A in this course your in big trouble mister" blah blah blah.

 

[Maggie893]

Just to add a little perpective here I'd like to note that the things you are upset about are actually changes to norms that have been in existance for a very long time. While there are always exceptions, the majority of religions in the world are still based on basic natural law. While the 10 commandments may be written in the scriptures, they do not vary greatly from what other religions consider as natural law and natural morals. You can certainly make a choice to live outside of the natural laws and morals but that doesn't change the fact that they exist and actually existed long before Christ was crucified.

50, 100 or 1000 years ago people would have been appalled to even allow the concept of these actions to cross their minds. Now it is suggested that Christians are at fault for these not being commonplace events.

Really, I'd like to know why I'm being considered the aggressor when the change is not being made by me.

 

[Stinker]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams



Since true practicing Christians are no longer a majority in the U.S. we are noticing a shift in the way our highest courts are ruling from how it ruled in the past and a shift in the kind of decisions being made by our Legislative bodies.

I think it is a mistake for our nation to make rulings not measured against the word of God...the Bible. I think it is tragic that the ones who are going to suffer the most (even more) everyday are the financially, socially, psychologically, and physically, disadvantaged. Even though a lot of these people 'took advatage of the system' the large corporations are even more guilty of 'taking advantage of the system' in the way Tax Increment Financing has been aranged for them in every city. (TIF is where we the little tax payers pay the taxes that these big boys should be paying. Some for 20,30, etc. years!)

Change was bound to come. I just hope Christians are not going to lose too much ground in Gov. money being steered away from the disadvantaged. We may lose our Christian holidays and othere things, but these I can deal with.