Why force others to live by your religion?

[Umaro]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

 

[MikeMcK]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

If you've ever read the writings of the Founding Fathers, then it is abundantly clear that they derived their morality, and the morality they based their ideas of liberty on from the Bible.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that?

In all fairness to the Mormons, they haven't practiced polygamy in many, many years.

Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

You're not bound by the scriptures. Go ahead and be homosexual if you want to. Just be aware that you're going to have to stand before God one day and answer for that sin.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

But here again, who's forcing you to do anything?

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Who's forcing you to do anything?

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Who's forcing you to do anything?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

Who's forcing you to say "Merry Christmas"?

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

Who has done this?

Name just one example of anyone having legislated their religion into the law.

 

[Umaro]

You say "Who's forcing you to do anything?" many times, and I'm hoping you are not just ignoring my question. Well, I'll go down the list. There is a huge movement to outlaw gay marraige, so that's one. There's also a huge movement to legislate a requirement to teach creationism and have prayer in schools, just look to Kansas for example. Then there's the Christmas thing. The boycott was one instance where a store was strongarmed into saying it.

So, all these laws are, in fact, forcing non-christians to live by christian law, or at least strongly attempting to.

 

[Sketcher]

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

It's not just from the Christian viewpoint, it is from the viewpoint of many faiths and philosophies.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

If you are referring to Terri Shiavo, the two major parties were in conflict over whether she wanted to die or not. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. What I have a problem with is suicide "doctors" selling their "cure" to terminally ill patients who haven't made up their mind.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

The current push isn't even for the Genesis account, it is for intelligent design, which is much more broad. Furthermore, it leaves the question of "Who is the Designer?" to the faiths of the students.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

The difference here is that you are not legally required to go to church. Children are legally required to go to school. School should not be a place where their faith is to be squelshed. If students want to pray and express their faith in a non-disruptive manner, let them.

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

That's not so much the problem as the lawsuits done in the name of political correctness. In a neighboring school district, someone sued, and Christmas Break is now Midwinter Break. Someone sued again, and the Easter Bunny is now the Special Bunny over there. It's ridiculous. We have a good culture, there's no reason to revise it or apologize for it. Christmas is Christmas. Easter is Easter. I don't get offended when Jews celebrate Hanukkah, and call it what it is. There is no reason why anyone who celebrates Christmas or Easter should shut up about it. I say "Merry Christmas," and if someone gets upset over that, too bad. They shouldn't have been so uptight.

 

[EmbracingHim]

Probably already answered above, but these are 'moral' decisions that a secular and Christian society 'together' have endorsed through our political system.

The standards that are acceptable in the U.S. are not just dictated by Christian ideology, but the secular society as well.

Some cults that broke away from mainstream Mormonism do still practice polygamy. They are breaking a law that was handed down from our political system that happens to agree with God's Will...but it is not so world-wide. For example, polygamy is perfectly acceptable in most parts of Africa if you can afford more than one wife.

Assisted death (or so called dying with dignity) occurs in the states all the time. Although there are laws forbidding it in some instances (again a moral and political decision versus 'only' a Christian belief). When studying laws, you will find assisted death acceptable in some instances by our political system (abortion for one. . Another is turning down life saving treatment [such as dialosis if spelled correctly] and being placed on pain medication and allowed to die. In this instance one dies in a completely drugged state...although the death is not induced...it is 'allowed' and assisted versus forcing treatment on the patient that declines. I consider this assisted death personally).

Not all schools allow a time for silence...in fact if you followed polling...most schools and colleges do not. The U.S. law allows this, but not prayer...as a Christian I'd like to see prayer put back in school.

Your mention that prayer was taken out of school...actually defeats your argument. (sorry).

Not meaning to sound harsh, but as a Christian I'd like to see the so called 'morning after...abortion pill' taken off the market. I'd like to see abortion made illegal. I'd like to see more crosses and acknowledgement to God in society. I'd like to see 'mandatory' prayer in school. lol. I'd also write the laws of this country directly from scripture! So...failing to love one's neighbor could be punishable by law. lol!!

In today's society you just don't see this...in the U.S. and less in other countries.

God Bless and hugs.

 

[Zeena]

Marriage is a God instituted union between a man and a woman meant to last as long as thier bodies..

Male and female He created them.

For a 'right-to' group to start claiming the have a 'right-to' this or that, that is not backed up by Scripture we then reap the fruit of those decisions, as a society!

I mean, you could say 'right-to' to a whole host of immoral acts, and what would you have, really! A degredated society with no morals and a pre-concieved notion of peace which doesn't have a leg to stand on!

Peace, peace, WHEN THERE IS NO PEACE!

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

Ezekiel 13:9-11
9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: 11Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

 

[salida]

Umaro--

First, the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian values regardless of what people feel. This is a fact not a notion. And marriage isn't just in the U.S. between one man and women - its on other countries that arn't christian at all. For example, in India the marriage is arranged between one man and women and other countries. This is thousands of years of basic culture and its not christianity alone.

Why not polygamy and other relationships? Because this has been done already in the Netherlands and the rate of STD's (sexual transmitted disease is running rapid). Marriage has been dissolved. We are made in God image and arn't animals. And yes, its going up in the U.S. because of people having more than one partner. My husband personally sees this everyday because he works in a lab and looks at it under a microscope when diagnosing diseases. So, first hand we know its going up in the U.S.- so its not propganda but a fact. People shouldn't be living any way they want and not be socially responsible - ruining their community. There are also social laws that exist not just scientific laws, etc.

You also question evolution? I'm a scientist and the evolution that is a falsehood is something being able to come from nothing. This isn't even scientifically possible. The antigod public school system is teaching this type of evolution as fact when its a farse. Even the general secular scientific community realize this is nonsense. Creation should be taught as well so students can decide for themselves. Also, creation is scientifically possible - everything points to it. Read A Case for A Creator by Lee Strobel (went from an athiest to a christian).

If you really want to know who the real God is, I strongly suggest you read Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (went from a athiest to a christian). Yes, objective facts. They are true rather you and I like it or not. I didn't write the Bible which is the most true book in the world.

 

[Robinsegg]

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

Well, the polygamy question was settled in court almost 200 years ago. If they wish to take it back to court, so be it. However, there are concerns with such, in order to protect children and to keep official confusion down.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

If you want to commit suicide, that's one thing. Asking another to help you could bee seen as murder. So the question becomes: what will we define as murder in this country?

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

I actually advocate giving a number of creation stories (including the theory of evolution) in science class. The way it was in my school, evolution was called a theory (not that the term theory was defined in 4th grade), but taught as fact. Teaching any theory as fact is problematic for me. Even just explaining what a theory is, and that evolution is not a fact, but a theory would work for me.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Why not just a designated time of silence for silent prayer? Why send a child to the principal's office for "disrupting class" by praying silently before a test and other kids make fun of him/her? Why try to make private prayer prohibited in schools?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

The others are not national holidays. Simply acknowledging the national holiday should not be offensive to anyone. If someone wants Chaunnukah (sp?) or Kwaanza (sp?) to be a national holiday, let them loby for it. Then, "happy holidays" makes more sense.

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

I don't believe that legislating religion actually helps much, in most cases. Only when the heart is changed will there ever be real change. However, in the case of protecting children (from vulgarity, crudity, profanity, and misinformation), I'm all for whatever legislation it takes.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

You say "Who's forcing you to do anything?" many times, and I'm hoping you are not just ignoring my question. Well, I'll go down the list. There is a huge movement to outlaw gay marraige, so that's one. There's also a huge movement to legislate a requirement to teach creationism and have prayer in schools, just look to Kansas for example. Then there's the Christmas thing. The boycott was one instance where a store was strongarmed into saying it.

So, all these laws are, in fact, forcing non-christians to live by christian law, or at least strongly attempting to.

In the case of the store . . . don't we have a right to shop where we want, for whatever reason? Do we not have the right to tell retailers what we want (in products and customer service) and shop where we get it?

Rachel

 

[Umaro]

"In the case of the store . . . don't we have a right to shop where we want, for whatever reason?"

That's why I had said it was more of a gripe. There's nothing wrong with it legally, I just think it's absurd that it is that big a deal to the point of forcing them to ignore all other for your faith.

 

[MikeMcK]

You say "Who's forcing you to do anything?" many times

Yes, because no one is forcing anyone to do any of the things you listed.

There is a huge movement to outlaw gay marraige, so that's one.

How can it be outlawed when it isn't legal in the first place? The only way to outlaw it would be to legalize it and then legislate against it.

So, who is forcing whom to do what in this case?

There's also a huge movement to legislate a requirement to teach creationism and have prayer in schools, just look to Kansas for example.

Again, who is being forced to do what?

If the school has prayer, they can't make you pray. If the school teaches creationism, they can't make you believe it.

If a school teaching creationism is "forcing" someone to do something (what, exactly, we're still waiting for you to tell us), then why isn't the opposite also true? Why isn't teaching evolution also forcing someone to do the opposite of whatever you believe it is that creationism is forcing them to do?

Then there's the Christmas thing. The boycott was one instance where a store was strongarmed into saying it.

Who was strongarmed? By whom were they strongarmed?

So, all these laws are, in fact, forcing non-christians to live by christian law, or at least strongly attempting to.

What law? None of the things you mentioned are laws.

 

[Iron Sun 254]

Pedophilia was common practice in ancient Rome until Christian teaching made them change their way of thinking and outlaw it.

I assume that when you talk about getting rid of the laws based on Christianity, you only mean the ones that you personally disagree with.

 

[Umaro]

"I assume that when you talk about getting rid of the laws based on Christianity, you only mean the ones that you personally disagree with."

Of course not. I just think that laws should be created because of reasoning and rationality rather than what it says in a 2000 year old book. There are plenty of things I disagree with in laws, yet they have legitimate reasons backing them up. "God says gay's are bad" for example doesn't seem to me to have enough behind it.

 

[g85]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that? Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals? I don't see the Jews forcing you to not eat bacon.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that. Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence? I know its majorily the extremists, but boycotting a store that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" to the point where it has to switch back seems pretty absurd. Happy Holidays includes you, so I don't see the problem. That would be like me starting a speech with "Welcome guests" and the caucasions getting angry because I didn't say "Greetings whites."

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

errrr... what?

 

[g85]

Read "Against Method" by Paul Feyerabend. You will have another perspective on teaching science in schools... as you go on about bein so normal... and right. (I dont mean this as an offence by the way)

 

[Jakkaru]

If you've ever read the writings of the Founding Fathers, then it is abundantly clear that they derived their morality, and the morality they based their ideas of liberty on from the Bible.

Um...bull.

History Buff Beret Hat On​

Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists and Unitarians who rejected doctrines like the Incarnation/ Thomas Jefferson dismissed the TGrinity as "incomprehensible jargon". He and other Founders made no mention of God in the Constitution, and took pains not to establish an official church on US soil.

Christians try to rewrite history as part of it's campaign to make many of their laws seem reasonable for this country to adopt by depicting the Founding Fathers as pios Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian Nation that favored Christianity. This is patently untrue. As I said before, the early patriots and presidents were Deists and Unitarians believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus. George Washington himself is qouted as to saying once during The Battle of Trenton "These Hessian tactics are as absurd as the Old and New Testament."

Thomas Paine- Was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence. A qoute from that pamphlet: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Chruch, by the ROman Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

George Washington- The fiurst president of the United States, a great man worthy of glory and honor...never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Chapioned the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplain petitioned Washington for a dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appoitment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and di not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

John Adams The country's second president, was dfrawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers "noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote; "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, This would be the best of all possible worlds if there was no religion in it!". It was also during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the goverment of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

Thomas Jefferson Third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He reverred to the Revalation of St John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian preisthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to ever understanding decided to draw from Plato and make an uncomprehensible absurdity.

James Madison- Fourth President and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage and shackles debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been it's fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both superstition, bigotry and persecution."

I could go on but that's enough to get the point across. It is true, Christianity has forced itself unto our laws with it's morality but mostly on States levels. The Constitution was written on the beliefs of humanist such as John Locke and Montesquieu. Sorry if I blew your mind but Christians have no ground to protest things such as abortion or gay marriage, the goverment of the United States was not founded on your beliefs but by the belefis of borderline atheist and agnostics, the rest of the nation shouod not be forced to live by your beliefs. If you don't want gay marriage, don't practice it, if you want prayer in school, do it during a quit time or passing time, don't make it mandatory and don't flaunt the fact your doing it, if you don't like evolution taught in school, send your child to Christian school. You wouldn't appreciate the Satanist protesting for the their laws to be accepted as Unisted States laws.

The first Christian president s of the United States began occuring when the Whig Party took power...and for a brief period turned the United States into a Toleratarian Democracy and thus we have had nothing but Christian Presidents which is now making it easier for Christian doctrine to become law, ie, gay marriage. Also by the way, poligamy was legal before the Whigs took over.

 

[ebia]

Before you all say "Noone makes you go to church," hear me out.

Given that freedom of religion is guarenteed in the Constitution, and the founding fathers wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that America is not a Christian nation, there are several aspects that do not seem justified to me.

Marraige is one. Why define marraige from the Christian viewpoint? The Mormons for example believe in polygamy, so shouldn't freedom of religion allow them to do just that?

My understanding is that only a small group of extremist mormons still want to practice polygamy. But if a system that protects the interests of those involved can be worked out and people want polygamy let them.

Also, if I have no relgion, why should I be bound by your scripture regarding homosexuals?

You shouldn't.

Then there's right to die. If I have a chronic disease and I'm gonna die in a few months of agony regardless, why use legal action to stop me? If you don't believe it, you don't have to do it.

I wouldn't stop you.

Then there's creationism in the science classroom. If we're going to teach your holy text's version, then we should have to teach every religions version, since none of it is actually verifiyable or supported by empiracle evidence. Also, showing evolution to be wrong does not make your version right.

Absolutely true.

Then there's prayer in school. Why must a designated time be set aside for prayer? You don't see me coming to church and demanding to be able to teach you science. If you demand your prayer said in schools, then every religions prayer must be, and there isnt time, nor is it the place for that.

Absolutely.

Can't you just keep it in your house or church?

I should be able to engage in prayer in any reasonable place - but not to force others to accompany me.

Finally, and this is more of a gripe than a valid question (so I appologize), but what is up with the whole "War on Christmas" nonsence?

Beats me.

Basically my question boils down to "Doesn't legislating your religion into law violate freedom of religion?"

Yep. And it doesn't work.

 

[MikeMcK]

Um...bull.

No, actually, it's true. Read their writings sometime.

History Buff Beret Hat On

History major and teacher hat on.

Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists and Unitarians who rejected doctrines like the Incarnation/ Thomas Jefferson dismissed the TGrinity as "incomprehensible jargon".

You're right. Some of the Founding Fathers were Deists and some were Unitarians.

However, if you had bothered to read my post, you would have seen that I said nothing about their personal religious affiliation.

He and other Founders made no mention of God in the Constitution, and took pains not to establish an official church on US soil.

You're right. They didn't. However, they did mention God at great length in the Declaration of Independance and in their personal writings and opinions when explaining their views on liberty and the principles and ideals upon which our country was founded.

A good place for you to start would be Bill Bennet's "Our Sacred Honor", which is more or less a collection of these writings.

Christians try to rewrite history as part of it's campaign to make many of their laws seem reasonable for this country to adopt by depicting the Founding Fathers as pios Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian Nation that favored Christianity. This is patently untrue.

Since you seem to have your mind made up already, I'll let the other participants in this thread decide:

We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of Gd - The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
hath not planted shall be rooted out.

Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out. - Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)

“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…” - Mayflower Compact, William Bradford, author (1620)

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! - John Adams (April 18, 1775)

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God...

...[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” – John Adams, private letter written to Abigail Adams July 4, 1776

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [Samual Adams, "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” - Samuel Adams, (October 4, 1790)

“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? - John Qunicy Adams
(--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.)

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." - Charles Carroll (Private letter to James McHenry on November 4, 1800.)

God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Benjamin Franklin(Constitutional Convention of 1787)

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” - Benjamin Franklin (Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787)

"History will afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition &c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." - Benjamin Franklin (Plan of Education for Public Schools in Pennsylvania, 1749)

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." - Alexander Hamilton (1787 after the Constitutional Convention)

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." - Alexander Hamilton

This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.” — Patrick Henry, The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” - Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” - John Jay, October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” - John Jay [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”...

...“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”...

..."I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." ...

...“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” - Thomas Jefferson, (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

 

[MikeMcK]

“It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.- Samuel Johnston, (Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. - James Madison (Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

With this act, Madison approved an effort to fund, with federal money, the distribution of Bibles to the citizenry because he believed that morality and even the future of our country depended on the obedience of citizens to that great book.

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. - James Madison (Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author...

...The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” - Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God--1810”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education” - Benjamin Rush,
(Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787)

“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” - Joseph Story [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.” - Joseph Story [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” - Noah Webster
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. Noah Webster, [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” - Noah Webster, [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” - Noah Webster, [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." - George Washington, (Farewell Address)

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” - George Washington, [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" - George Washington, [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.” - George Washington, ("Prayer Journal")

“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". - George Washington [1797 letter to John Adams]

 

[MikeMcK]

George Washington himself is qouted as to saying once during The Battle of Trenton "These Hessian tactics are as absurd as the Old and New Testament."

Quoted by whom? What is your source for this?

George Washington- The fiurst president of the United States, a great man worthy of glory and honor...never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence.

Here you go:

“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Washington never claimed to be a Christian when we have an example of his earnest prayer stating the very heart of what it means to be a Christian.

Washington Chapioned the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.

As do all Baptists. What's your point?

When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplain petitioned Washington for a dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appoitment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and di not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

Again, what is your point? Most people do not call for a clergyman to be in attendance at their death.

John Adams The country's second president, was dfrawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers "noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote; "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, This would be the best of all possible worlds if there was no religion in it!".

What is your source for this?

How do you reconcile it with the quotes I've already given to show that Adams was devoutly religious (and provided citations for, I might add)?

It was also during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the goverment of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

Article XI merely says that the US is not a theocracy. No one is arguing that it is.

Thomas Jefferson Third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He reverred to the Revalation of St John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian preisthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to ever understanding decided to draw from Plato and make an uncomprehensible absurdity.

Jefferson's distrust of clergy is well known. However, as evidenced in the quotes I've provided for you, his respect for Christian principles and their effect on him is equally well known.

James Madison- Fourth President and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense.

And I have already provided you with quotes directly from Madison that show that you claim is not true.

I could go on but that's enough to get the point across. It is true, Christianity has forced itself unto our laws with it's morality but mostly on States levels.

For example?

Sorry if I blew your mind but Christians have no ground to protest things such as abortion or gay marriage, the goverment of the United States was not founded on your beliefs but by the belefis of borderline atheist and agnostics,

And I have already provided evidence to show that this is not true.

if you want prayer in school, do it during a quit time or passing time, don't make it mandatory

There is no law currently on the books that makes prayer mandatory, nor is there a proposal for one.

and don't flaunt the fact your doing it, if you don't like evolution taught in school, send your child to Christian school.

I see. So then, you favor teaching one religious belief over another?

You wouldn't appreciate the Satanist protesting for the their laws to be accepted as Unisted States laws.

We would accept the fact that Satanists have the same right to be a part of the government and to influence it's policies as anyone else.