Why fire?

[ssassessiss]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
• Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
• Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief, why fire? Why conscious torment for eternity? Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallable, non-celestial things such as humans there too? And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

 

[Publius]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief

Not disbelief, punishment for sin.

why fire? Why conscious torment for eternity? Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

Not disbelief, not rejecting Him, but punishment for sin.

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallable, non-celestial things such as humans there too?

As punishment for sin.

And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

Yes.

 

[drich0150]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief, why fire?

I don't know that physical fire is what is being described here. Fire as we know it requires fuel oxygen to be sustained. So Fire or our understanding of it only describes the consuming nature and the emotional state that one endures when being consumed or engulfed into the emptiness of Hell, the pit, or the void.

Why conscious torment for eternity?

Consciousness is a gift from God. It is apart of creation. Hell is the absences of God. The question now becomes do you think you have the power to sustain your consciousness after God has completely turned His back on you?

Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

The suffering is not derived from what Hell contains. The suffering is the result from being separated from God. Those who chose Hell want to be separated from God.

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallible, non-celestial things such as humans there too? And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

Yes He is. And my question to you is do you really think anyone you know will be able to sustain themselves and their higher functions any longer than what God will allow? Do not get me wrong, I am not saying Hell is not forever nor am I saying what makes you soul up won't be there forever. I am asking will you be able to maintain your sanity for eternity being consumed by something far worse than fire? Your conscious/Spirit's life time in Hell will be determined by a righteous God. Even if your Soul (the shell in which your spirit resides) remains there for an eternity.

 

[BobRyan]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief, why fire? Why conscious torment for eternity? Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallable, non-celestial things such as humans there too? And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

1. According to the Bible - there is no conscious torment for anyone (not even Satan) for eternity.

Matt 10:28 God "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

In Matt 10 God says not to fear those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy Both body AND soul in fiery hell".

In Luke 12 God says that the one who knows the truth and does not do it - will receive many stripes in hell and the one that does not know it will receive few.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So there is torment and suffering in fiery hell - but it does not last as conscious torment - it ends with "destruction of BOTH body AND soul". Matt 10:28

As for "eternal fire" - in the book of Jude we are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are given as examples of undergoing the "punishment of eternal fire". And that they were destroyed - as in "reduced to ashes".

Adam and Eve chose death - over perfect sinless - paradise existence when they chose to doubt God and eat of the forbidden tree. In Romans 6 we are told "the wages of sin is death".

God "could" have destroyed them then and there - no children, no paradise restored but instead He chose to let the live and offer them eternal life once again - only at infinite cost to HIMSELF in that He must die on the cross for us. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" - 2Corinthians 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ViaCrucis]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief, why fire? Why conscious torment for eternity? Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallable, non-celestial things such as humans there too? And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

The notion of Hell is far from monolithic in Christianity.

The idea that there is this cavernous pit filled with sulfurous fire where people are licked by tongues of flame forever and ever and ever being intentionally and consciously tortured in this pit without ceasing is.........actually probably has more to do with the Divine Comedy and Saturday morning cartoons than Scripture and the broad Christian tradition.

Here is how St. Isaac of Nineveh, a 7th century Christian monk respected across Christian theological traditions writes and speaks of these things:

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful."

"That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability."

For Isaac, and many in the Christian Church, Hell is better understood as condition, disposition, or state; Heaven and Hell do not describe two distinct locations but rather two distinct dispositions and/or conditions while in the Presence of God. The difference between Heaven and Hell is not external but internal. The anguish with which the wicked suffer arises from within themselves.

The fire of Hell is then God's own loving presence, and this same fire is the fire that illuminates the righteous, by which they are filled with joy without end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ssassessiss]

Not disbelief, punishment for sin.

Presumably, if you accept Jesus (believe) then you are absolved from sin, so these are one and the same as far as I'm concerned.

Not disbelief, not rejecting Him, but punishment for sin.

...

As punishment for sin.

Punishment for (at most, 100 years of) something that Adam and Eve thrust upon everyone, is somehow made up for by infinity years of pain? How does that make sense at all? What does God gain from this?

Yes.

Why?

 

[ssassessiss]

I don't know that physical fire is what is being described here. Fire as we know it requires fuel oxygen to be sustained. So Fire or our understanding of it only describes the consuming nature and the emotional state that one endures when being consumed or engulfed into the emptiness of Hell, the pit, or the void.

Do you have any Bible verses to back that up or is this just conjecture? If God is omnipotent (and unbelievably vicious) then surely He could come up with a way to make people literally burn forever.

Consciousness is a gift from God. It is apart of creation. Hell is the absences of God. The question now becomes do you think you have the power to sustain your consciousness after God has completely turned His back on you?

How can something omnipresent not be somewhere?

I believe that the mind is much more complicated than just a consciousness held up by God, so your question doesn't really make sense to me.

The suffering is not derived from what Hell contains. The suffering is the result from being separated from God. Those who chose Hell want to be separated from God.

I don't want to be separate from God. At least, if one exists, and it really loves me, then I would love to be with it. But I don't see any proof of it existing, nor have I felt its presence, nor has it done anything to even try to convince me when I've asked it to. Very few people would choose to be agonized forever, or for any amount of time, in whatever shape it takes, over hanging out with the omnimax for eternity.

If I die, and God's right in my face, then I'd say, awesome, now I know. But of course by the time I get any kind of tangible evidence it's "too late".

Yes He is. And my question to you is do you really think anyone you know will be able to sustain themselves and their higher functions any longer than what God will allow? Do not get me wrong, I am not saying Hell is not forever nor am I saying what makes you soul up won't be there forever. I am asking will you be able to maintain your sanity for eternity being consumed by something far worse than fire? Your conscious/Spirit's life time in Hell will be determined by a righteous God. Even if your Soul (the shell in which your spirit resides) remains there for an eternity.

God could simply smite people when they die, ushering them out of existence, but He decides to let them suffer forever. I fail to see how that's at all loving. And please don't say that it's righteous or just or loving because God says so, because that smacks of "might makes right".

 

[ssassessiss]

1. According to the Bible - there is no conscious torment for anyone (not even Satan) for eternity.

This seems to conflict with the verses mentioned in the link I provided. How do you account for that?

Matt 10:28 God "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

In Matt 10 God says not to fear those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy Both body AND soul in fiery hell".

In Luke 12 God says that the one who knows the truth and does not do it - will receive many stripes in hell and the one that does not know it will receive few.

I don't see the purpose of making anyone suffer at all if they're going to be wiped from existence. Then again, I don't see the purpose of making anyone suffer with no recourse - it's not punishment if there's no hope of learning anything from it, it's just sadism.

 

[ssassessiss]

The notion of Hell is far from monolithic in Christianity.

The idea that there is this cavernous pit filled with sulfurous fire where people are licked by tongues of flame forever and ever and ever being intentionally and consciously tortured in this pit without ceasing is.........actually probably has more to do with the Divine Comedy and Saturday morning cartoons than Scripture and the broad Christian tradition.

Revelations pretty explicitly says you'll be tortured, at least with fire and sulfur (under God's own watch no less):

10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Here is how St. Isaac of Nineveh, a 7th century Christian monk respected across Christian theological traditions writes and speaks of these things:

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful."

"That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability."

This view doesn't seem Biblical. He even says, "in my opinion".

For Isaac, and many in the Christian Church, Hell is better understood as condition, disposition, or state; Heaven and Hell do not describe two distinct locations but rather two distinct dispositions and/or conditions while in the Presence of God. The difference between Heaven and Hell is not external but internal. The anguish with which the wicked suffer arises from within themselves.

The fire of Hell is then God's own loving presence, and this same fire is the fire that illuminates the righteous, by which they are filled with joy without end.

If this is so, are you suggesting that even when given evidence of God's existence, everyone who didn't believe Him while alive (and thus were not absolved of sin by proxy) are still going to be eternally remorseful? He won't lend them a hand after an appropriate amount of sorrow has been doled out?

 

[hedrick]

Revelations pretty explicitly says you'll be tortured, at least with fire and sulfur (under God's own watch no less)

The whole passage is clearly symbolic. Note that it speaks of drinking the wine of God's wrath. I'm sure God's wrath isn't actually liquid.

But I believe the symbolism suggests that it is God's wrath itself that is the burning fire, not that he creates a separate torture-house.

At any rate, I see three mitigating circumstances. First, by Rev 14:10 we're fairly far into the end times. By this time, the conflict is clear for everyone to see. There are no good agnostics who can't believe that God exists, but would follow him if they knew.

Second, by the start of Rev 21, all the former things have passed away, including death and hades. Despite the apparently literal meaning of the language up to there, I don't think the vision of the new heavens and new earth includes a torture-chamber in the basement. It's likely, however that this position needs to be explored in Unorthodox theology, so I won't defend it here.

Third, many Christians see a possibility of someone being a follower of Christ without knowing it. I'm not saying that it's possible to earn salvation by good works. It's not. But if one is serving the highest form of good one knows, repenting of sin as one realizes it, there are certainly Christians who think that God will accept this as following Christ. I have a sense that this may even be the majority view, though probably not among CF readers.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Revelations pretty explicitly says you'll be tortured, at least with fire and sulfur (under God's own watch no less):

Firstly, the Revelation by is an apocalyptic text, as such is intentionally symbolic and cryptic.

Secondly, it may depend on how one wants to render the word βασανισθήσεται (grammatical form of βασανίζω also used in such passages such as Matthew 8:6 with the servant suffering with palsy, or Matthew 14:14 with the ship being tossed by the waves.

Considering that the primary meaning is "applying touchstone", i.e. a form of jasper known as basanite or lydite used to test the purity of metals, it would follow that its secondary meaning involves testing, trial, etc. with implication of suffering; such that a ship can be tossed, or tried by the waves having its structural integrity tested or one can be tried by the pain and suffering of palsy, or one can be tried in the fires of God.

So there's that.

This view doesn't seem Biblical. He even says, "in my opinion".

If this is so, are you suggesting that even when given evidence of God's existence, everyone who didn't believe Him while alive (and thus were not absolved of sin by proxy) are still going to be eternally remorseful? He won't lend them a hand after an appropriate amount of sorrow has been doled out?

There's a lot of assumption in this paragraph, that aside the meat of your question seems to be wouldn't God eventually bring them out from their state; to which I would respond with I certainly pray that this is so.

St. Isaac also says,

"In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised." echoing St. Paul's "God will be all in all" and the final imagery of the Revelation of St. John and so on and so forth.

It is a pious hope of the Faithful that all might be saved, all reconciled and restored to God. That God will be all in all, and Death's sting fully extinguished.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[drich0150]

Do you have any Bible verses to back that up or is this just conjecture? If God is omnipotent (and unbelievably vicious) then surely He could come up with a way to make people literally burn forever.

Do you have a bible verse to support your conjecture?

How can something omnipresent not be somewhere?

Are you saying God resides in Hell? If not then the doctrine that says God is Omni present is in error.

I believe that the mind is much more complicated than just a consciousness held up by God, so your question doesn't really make sense to me.

I too dismiss your comment because i do not believe as you do. If you wish that i honor your dismissal you must convince me to think as you do, otherwise the point stands.

I don't want to be separate from God. At least, if one exists, and it really loves me, then I would love to be with it. But I don't see any proof of it existing, nor have I felt its presence,

When have you become the yardstick in which that the universe has been measured? In essence you are saying that your perception of everything is the only reality possible. and there is nothing beyond your comprehension.

nor has it done anything to even try to convince me when I've asked it to.

On who terms did you ask God to reveal Himself?

If I die, and God's right in my face, then I'd say, awesome, now I know. But of course by the time I get any kind of tangible evidence it's "too late".

Evidence is provided by all who Ask seek and knock for it as outlined in Luke 11.

God could simply smite people when they die, ushering them out of existence, but He decides to let them suffer forever. I fail to see how that's at all loving.

That's because God is not Omni benevolent. Above all else God is Righteous.

And please don't say that it's righteous or just or loving because God says so, because that smacks of "might makes right".

Just because you do not like to hear it doesn't make it anyless true..

 

[Publius]

Presumably, if you accept Jesus (believe) then you are absolved from sin, so these are one and the same as far as I'm concerned.

You presume incorrectly. The Bible says nothing about "accepting Jesus" or absolution from sin.

Punishment for (at most, 100 years of) something that Adam and Eve thrust upon everyone, is somehow made up for by infinity years of pain? How does that make sense at all?

It doesn't. It's what's commonly called a "straw man.

 

[ssassessiss]

The whole passage is clearly symbolic. Note that it speaks of drinking the wine of God's wrath. I'm sure God's wrath isn't actually liquid.

But I believe the symbolism suggests that it is God's wrath itself that is the burning fire, not that he creates a separate torture-house.

I suppose Revelations is a poor choice, as the book does seem to be very symbolic. But the idea of hell being fiery is mentioned in several places throughout the bible.
"fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22)
"They will throw them into the blazing furnace" (Matthew 13:42)
etc, etc.

These don't seem to be symbolic at all, unless you do a lot of mental gymnastics. Jesus is literally saying that there is hellfire and it's a blazing furnace.

At any rate, I see three mitigating circumstances. First, by Rev 14:10 we're fairly far into the end times. By this time, the conflict is clear for everyone to see. There are no good agnostics who can't believe that God exists, but would follow him if they knew.

What becomes of these "good agnostics" who die before the end times?

Third, many Christians see a possibility of someone being a follower of Christ without knowing it. I'm not saying that it's possible to earn salvation by good works. It's not. But if one is serving the highest form of good one knows, repenting of sin as one realizes it, there are certainly Christians who think that God will accept this as following Christ. I have a sense that this may even be the majority view, though probably not among CF readers.

This sounds nice, and I don't mean to be rude, but do you have anything Biblical to back this up at all?

And, if this is the case, why is it so important for people to become Christian if it's possible to get a similar result without it? This seems to make sin subjective, or it would mean someone has to be very lucky to repent of just the right things that God would call sin.

 

[ssassessiss]

Firstly, the Revelation by is an apocalyptic text, as such is intentionally symbolic and cryptic.

Why is God being intentionally cryptic in His holy book?

Secondly, it may depend on how one wants to render the word βασανισθήσεται (grammatical form of βασανίζω also used in such passages such as Matthew 8:6 with the servant suffering with palsy, or Matthew 14:14 with the ship being tossed by the waves.

6_6

I hate getting into semantics about what it means in Hebrew. If one current translation isn't good enough then how can I trust any of them to be right? Do I have to get a degree in Hebrew language with a minor in Biblical history to be able to understand it?

Considering that the primary meaning is "applying touchstone", i.e. a form of jasper known as basanite or lydite used to test the purity of metals, it would follow that its secondary meaning involves testing, trial, etc. with implication of suffering; such that a ship can be tossed, or tried by the waves having its structural integrity tested or one can be tried by the pain and suffering of palsy, or one can be tried in the fires of God.

So there's that.

This is all very interesting but the Bible seems to suggest otherwise.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

There's a lot of assumption in this paragraph, that aside the meat of your question seems to be wouldn't God eventually bring them out from their state; to which I would respond with I certainly pray that this is so.

I only mentioned you suggested it because the Bible says that the suffering is eternal. God isn't one to change His mind, is He? I'd just like you to provide some Bible verses that back your statements up, because while I appreciate the sentiment that you pray that God wouldn't allow me to be tortured (in any way) forever, I don't think He'll change His mind for anyone.

It is a pious hope of the Faithful that all might be saved, all reconciled and restored to God. That God will be all in all, and Death's sting fully extinguished.

-CryptoLutheran

I did read the St. Isaac bit, but I want concrete truth, not opinion. Again, I don't mean to be rude, I just find it a bit irrelevant to what I'm trying to get answered here.

 

[Johnnz]

Fire is a symbol, a metaphor. It can symbolise refinement, God's judgement, God's presence and a literal burning.

John
NZ

 

[Jonathan95]

Why fire? Maybe because it signifes wrath? Also, God is an all-consuming Fire.

 

[ssassessiss]

Do you have a bible verse to support your conjecture?

That doesn't really answer my question. Of course I don't have any Bible verses to support that specific fact, just that God is omnipotent and therefore should be able to do anything (such as make a fire that doesn't need oxygen or carbon).

Are you saying God resides in Hell? If not then the doctrine that says God is Omni present is in error.

Psalm 139:7-8: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

I too dismiss your comment because i do not believe as you do. If you wish that i honor your dismissal you must convince me to think as you do, otherwise the point stands.

I'm not a neuropsychologist but I'm sure that there are extensive studies done on how the brain works, how it forms pathways, and how it dies.

Why include God in the picture in this case? Where's the evidence that He is sustaining my consciousness? And, you say it's a gift - what kind of gift is it if He's going to take it away from me?

When have you become the yardstick in which that the universe has been measured? In essence you are saying that your perception of everything is the only reality possible. and there is nothing beyond your comprehension.

No. What I'm saying is that I won't presuppose that God exists and then try to get information from there. I'm fully open to the idea of a God existing (why would I ask Him/Her/It to show itself if I didn't?), but if I'm not given concrete evidence of it I'm not going to back it with belief. I haven't ever even felt like God was there, which is how many of the Christians around me started to believe.

I don't know where you got that I'm a solipsist.

On who terms did you ask God to reveal Himself?

I'm sorry, but this just an absurd notion. I asked God to show Himself to me, to prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is out there and wants to have a relationship with me. I don't care how He does it, just that it's irrefutable to myself and anyone else that it's true.

Evidence is provided by all who Ask seek and knock for it as outlined in Luke 11.

Well, I'm still waiting for it.

That's because God is not Omni benevolent. Above all else God is Righteous.

Interesting.

Just because you do not like to hear it doesn't make it anyless true..

Certainly not. But if God is only righteous because he's the strongest, then righteousness means nothing.

 

[ssassessiss]

You presume incorrectly. The Bible says nothing about "accepting Jesus" or absolution from sin.

That's interesting. How does one not go to hell then? This is what is taught at my church, so unless you're talking about some supernatural mechanism for salvation that begins with Jesus, I'd like to hear it.

It doesn't. It's what's commonly called a "straw man.

Then??? What's the deal with hell???