Why fire?

[ssassessiss]

Fire is a symbol, a metaphor. It can symbolise refinement, God's judgement, God's presence and a literal burning.

John
NZ

It can't be a metaphor in every mentioning of it.

 

[ssassessiss]

Why fire? Maybe because it signifes wrath? Also, God is an all-consuming Fire.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Please speak in terms I can understand that don't involve catch phrases.

 

[Jonathan95]

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Please speak in terms I can understand that don't involve catch phrases.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

 

[ssassessiss]

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Yes, I know it comes from the Bible, but what does it mean? God is an all-consuming fire, which somehow... what? Burns me up in hell? I don't see a connection.

 

[Jonathan95]

Yes, I know it comes from the Bible, but what does it mean? God is an all-consuming fire, which somehow... what? Burns me up in hell? I don't see a connection.

I believe there can be a connection between that and Wrath.

 

[Johnnz]

It can't be a metaphor in every mentioning of it.

I didn't say it was. In fact I gave three meanings.

John
NZ

 

[drich0150]

That doesn't really answer my question. Of course I don't have any Bible verses to support that specific fact, just that God is omnipotent and therefore should be able to do anything (such as make a fire that doesn't need oxygen or carbon).

The by definition it is not fire. Fire is bound by the physical laws of this universe. What you have is Hell fire, which is something unique that can only be compared to fire, because we do not have anything like it to compare to in this plain of existence.

Psalm 139:7-8: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

The Hebrew word that is translated into Hell in the English is Sheol. Which means grave. The Jews do not believe in Hell. The psalms are a Jewish book by nature, which means "Hell" in this context is a bad translation.. Nice try though.

I'm not a neuropsychologist but I'm sure that there are extensive studies done on how the brain works, how it forms pathways, and how it dies.

Why include God in the picture in this case?

Because God is the God of creation. Of which your ability to reason is also apart. to the degree that it separates you from all other forms of life on this planet.

Where's the evidence that He is sustaining my consciousness?

define evidence.

And, you say it's a gift - what kind of gift is it if He's going to take it away from me?

The same type of gift that life is or the same type of gift that our "talents" are. (as in Mt 25:14-30)

No. What I'm saying is that I won't presuppose that God exists and then try to get information from there. I'm fully open to the idea of a God existing (why would I ask Him/Her/It to show itself if I didn't?), but if I'm not given concrete evidence of it I'm not going to back it with belief. I haven't ever even felt like God was there, which is how many of the Christians around me started to believe.

so because you do not "feel" god you can not believe in God? Again why not approach God as He has instructed rather than how your peers have?

I don't know where you got that I'm a solipsist.

See the above statement, and the one originally quoted, then pair your actions to the definition of the term:Solipsist | Define Solipsist at Dictionary.com

I'm sorry, but this just an absurd notion. I asked God to show Himself to me, to prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is out there and wants to have a relationship with me. I don't care how He does it, just that it's irrefutable to myself and anyone else that it's true.

Well, I'm still waiting for it.

because you are still waiting means you did not approach God as you have been instructed. If you refuse to humble yourself to God and approach Him as you have been instructed you will wait to your judgment day.

Interesting.

Indeed. Matter of fact the Omni aspects of God are not a biblical principle at all. They are a doctrinal effort designed to try and explain the nature of God by placing limits and boundaries onto God's power and authority.

Certainly not. But if God is only righteous because he's the strongest, then righteousness means nothing.

Perhaps to those outside of the Righteousness of God.

 

[ssassessiss]

The by definition it is not fire. Fire is bound by the physical laws of this universe. What you have is Hell fire, which is something unique that can only be compared to fire, because we do not have anything like it to compare to in this plain of existence.

This seems like kind of a pointless tangent. At any rate, it's also possible for God to come up with some mechanism to whisk away the CO2 and replace it with an infinite source of O2. I don't even remember how we got started on this

The Hebrew word that is translated into Hell in the English is Sheol. Which means grave. The Jews do not believe in Hell. The psalms are a Jewish book by nature, which means "Hell" in this context is a bad translation.. Nice try though.

I wasn't trying anything, I was just looking for verses that support what I was taught in youth group and such. Once again, I dislike the idea of words meaning several different things in different languages... but anyway. Why is this important?

Because God is the God of creation. Of which your ability to reason is also apart. to the degree that it separates you from all other forms of life on this planet.

Everything with a brain, or brain-analog, is capable of reason, even if unconscious reason.

define evidence.

Really?

Evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is it provable that God's got a stake in my every thought, or is this just an extension of the Bible? Without evidence it's impossible for me to distinguish truth from self-delusion.

The same type of gift that life is or the same type of gift that our "talents" are. (as in Mt 25:14-30)

Some might disagree that life is a gift. I enjoy mine well enough though.

If God's giving us a gift, then it's awfully rude to take it away.

so because you do not "feel" god you can not believe in God? Again why not approach God as He has instructed rather than how your peers have?

No, I never said that I used that as my marker of proof - I merely said that the bare minimum, a feeling of God, hasn't graced me with its presence. Also, I never said I can't believe in God, I just require evidence before I make and hold the belief. I am just unable to force myself to believe something first, and then go and look for evidence. That is entirely backwards.

See the above statement, and the one originally quoted, then pair your actions to the definition of the term:Solipsist | Define Solipsist at Dictionary.com

You misread or misinterpreted my post when you thought I meant that feelings were the end-all of belief.

because you are still waiting means you did not approach God as you have been instructed. If you refuse to humble yourself to God and approach Him as you have been instructed you will wait to your judgment day.

I don't know what humbling myself entails, but I no doubt spent many hours of earnest, pleading prayer when I was younger that God show Himself to me in some way that I could know for certain that He was there. How exactly am I instructed to find God? Why are other religions' instructions for finding their gods any less valid for someone like me, who doesn't feel anything and has no concrete proof of any god's existence? Evidence is the only way to separate what's true and what may just be delusion.

I hope you don't doubt my sincerity in asking God to reveal Himself to me.

Indeed. Matter of fact the Omni aspects of God are not a biblical principle at all. They are a doctrinal effort designed to try and explain the nature of God by placing limits and boundaries onto God's power and authority.

It's ironic that you say that ascribing God with terms that gives Him limitless power and knowledge give him boundaries. How do you reckon?

I'd be interested to hear what other members think of this.

Do you at least agree that He's omnipotent and omniscient?

Perhaps to those outside of the Righteousness of God.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this but I'm pretty sure I don't like what it implies. (NOT THAT WHAT I LIKE IS THE TRUTH, SO DON'T SAY THAT!!)

 

[ssassessiss]

I didn't say it was. In fact I gave three meanings.

John
NZ

OK

 

[Timothew]

What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
I don't understand the purpose of hell in the first place, but supposing there is a very good reason to put someone there for disbelief, why fire? Why conscious torment for eternity? Couldn't God have come up with a better system for dealing with people who either rejected Him or simply never saw fit to believe in Him (and whatever salvation entails) than unbearable suffering? What does He gain from this?

I am aware of the answer "it was made for Satan". So, why put regular, more-fallable, non-celestial things such as humans there too? And, is Satan really deserving of unending punishment? Is anyone?

There are a lot of deep discussions about hell here: http://www.christianforums.com/f130/

 

[ssassessiss]

There are a lot of deep discussions about hell here: http://www.christianforums.com/f130/

Thank you for the link.

 

[Timothew]

Thank you for the link.

Pretty much, I live in Unorthodox Theology.

 

[ssassessiss]

Pretty much, I live in Unorthodox Theology.

I'm glad to see there are a lot of people there who agree with me that eternal torment is a bonkers thing to believe that a just God would create and perpetuate. Still, I can't dismiss it outright as it's a lot of interpretation and debate, but I hope that I'll make my mind up about it after reading through a few threads.

 

[drich0150]

I don't even remember how we got started on this

Because you refuse to accept that Hell fire is anything other that what you perceive it to be. Again it points to you and your current understanding of God as being the yardstick in which everything else is measured.

I wasn't trying anything, I was just looking for verses that support what I was taught in youth group and such. Once again, I dislike the idea of words meaning several different things in different languages... But anyway. Why is this important?

Because you asserted that God exists in Hell and you cited a Hebrew verse that places the residence of God in Hell. A precept taken from a Hebrew verse which does not acknowledge the existence of Hell, but only (In the orginal text) refers to the grave. Therefore your summation that God resides in Hell was based on a bad translation/understanding. Making your assertion wrong. Thereby calling into question your belief in the doctrine of Omni presents. Which also should have you question "other' foundational doctrines you ascribe to God. Which should have shown you that you're not the authority on God you believe yourself to be. Which should also be telling you to ask more questions, and make fewer assertions based on your Sunday school experience. lest you enjoy looking the fool.

Everything with a brain, or brain-analog, is capable of reason, even if unconscious reason.

Just because you can deem instinctual behavior as "reason" Does not mean actual/conscientious reasoning is taking place. Which is what is being discussed here and not the red herring you presented.

Really?

Evidence - Wisped, the free encyclopedia

Is it provable that God's got a stake in my every thought, or is this just an extension of the Bible?

I do not believe the bible represents this.

Without evidence it's impossible for me to distinguish truth from self-delusion.

Again what do you consider to be evidence from God?

Some might disagree that life is a gift. I enjoy mine well enough though.

If God's giving us a gift, then it's awfully rude to take it away.

So what? The Lord Giveth and the Lord taketh away, Blessed be the name of the Lord.

No, I never said that I used that as my marker of proof - I merely said that the bare minimum, a feeling of God, hasn't graced me with its presence. Also, I never said I can't believe in God, I just require evidence before I make and hold the belief. I am just unable to force myself to believe something first, and then go and look for evidence. That is entirely backwards.

So if I told you that this certain girl/boy you like is deeply in love with you but is waiting for you to make your feelings known to them first, you would not take a chance and express your feelings to find the greatest love of your life??

I don't know what humbling myself entails, but I no doubt spent many hours of earnest, pleading prayer when I was younger that God show Himself to me in some way that I could know for certain that He was there. How exactly am I instructed to find God?

Read Luke 11:5-13
Luke - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway 11&version=NKJV

Why are other religions' instructions for finding their gods any less valid for someone like me, who doesn't feel anything and has no concrete proof of any god's existence? Evidence is the only way to separate what's true and what may just be delusion.

Evidence is provided to all who ask seek and knock as instructed in Luke 11. Or did you really think we are ALL so foolish to believe in a God we do not know? Seriously?

I hope you don't doubt my sincerity in asking God to reveal Himself to me.

It has nothing to do with what I believe but how you follow the instructions given you. Will you humble yourself and follow what He has told you to do?

It's ironic that you say that ascribing God with terms that gives Him limitless power and knowledge give him boundaries. How do you reckon?

If God is omnibenevolent then by definition He can not be righteous beyond the limits of His supposed Omni benevolence. Or omnipotence or what ever the other Omni aspects you wish to bind your understanding of God to. Heard this one? Can God create a rock so big He can not lift it? How can this be a problem for a limitless God unless the definitions of His infinite power has placed limits on what He can achieve? God is not limited, but the words we ascribe to His infinite nature are.

I'd be interested to hear what other members think of this.

Then do a search of the Omni aspects of God.

Do you at least agree that He's omnipotent and omniscient?

God is not described this way in the bible. In fact none of the Omni aspects of God are used in the Bible. God describes Himself as "I am, The Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End." These descriptions do not limit Him. Any follower of the God of the bible must limit His description of God by what the bible says and not by what well meaning religion teaches.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this but I'm pretty sure I don't like what it implies. (NOT THAT WHAT I LIKE IS THE TRUTH, SO DON'T SAY THAT!!)

then allow me to clarify, you said:

Certainly not. But if God is only righteous because he's the strongest, then righteousness means nothing.

I said:
Perhaps to those outside of the Righteousness of God.
It means to say that only those outside of the righteousness of God regard His righteousness as meaningless.

 

[ssassessiss]

Because you refuse to accept that Hell fire is anything other that what you perceive it to be. Again it points to you and your current understanding of God as being the yardstick in which everything else is measured.

Once again. I am open to new ideas. I don't know why you're so adamant to paint me as a stubborn moron when all I'm doing is asking questions. I'm just pointing out that it is possible that it is something, not that it can't be anything else.

Because you asserted that God exists in Hell and you cited a Hebrew verse that places the residence of God in Hell.

I made no such assertion. That's quite a leap from asking how something omnipresent could not exist somewhere. The verse I presented hardly suggests that God "resides" in Hell, only that He must also be there if omnipresent.

A precept taken from a Hebrew verse which does not acknowledge the existence of Hell, but only (In the orginal text) refers to the grave. Therefore your summation that God resides in Hell was based on a bad translation/understanding.

Once again, excuse me for not having read every single transcript and piece of parchment in Hebrew and Greek on this subject. I can only assume that if it says hell the translation I'm reading, then it means hell. I am not an expert.

Making your assertion wrong. Thereby calling into question your belief in the doctrine of Omni presents. Which also should have you
question "other' foundational doctrines you ascribe to God.

I only presented the verse as a conversation topic and a counterpoint to your statement. Nowhere did I say anything else about it besides that it looked to support the idea of omnipresence.

Which should have shown you that you're not the authority on God you believe yourself to be. Which should also be telling you to ask more questions, and make fewer assertions based on your Sunday school experience. lest you enjoy looking the fool.

And you are the authority? All you're giving me is your opinion and your interpretation of what the Bible says about God's omnipotence. Which is fine, until you call me foolish for thinking otherwise.

Omnipresence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please stop making assumptions about what I think I do and don't know. Mudslinging is so unsightly.

Just because you can deem instinctual behavior as "reason" Does not mean actual/conscientious reasoning is taking place. Which is what is being discussed here and not the red herring you presented.

How do you know that reasoning isn't taking place? Before we continue with this tangent, what are you even defining as reason? Tell me if this doesn't fit with your idea of being able to reason:

Bird Brain? It May Be A Compliment! - Dana Foundation

The pigeons were trained to look at three keys in a row. An asymmetrical symbol was projected on the center key; the same symbol was projected on one of the side keys and a mirror-image of it on the other. To obtain a food reward, the pigeon had to peck the side key with the image that matched the one in the center. This sounds simple, but the symbols were rotated at various angles compared with the center image. Humans make consistently more errors as the angle of rotation increases, just as we have difficulty in recognizing a familiar face or object when we see it upside down. But pigeons have no trouble, regardless of the angle of rotation.

Animals have long been known to have fairly complex problem-solving abilities. So, how can you say they have no ability to actively reason?

I do not believe the bible represents this.

I guess I misread what you said. I thought you were trying to say that God is the one allowing me to have thoughts.

Again what do you consider to be evidence from God?

I don't know what would convince me, but God does. If He wanted me to know that He was there for sure then it wouldn't be any problem for Him to make Himself known to me.

So what? The Lord Giveth and the Lord taketh away, Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Nevermind.

So if I told you that this certain girl/boy you like is deeply in love with you but is waiting for you to make your feelings known to them first, you would not take a chance and express your feelings to find the greatest love of your life??

Oh, but I have told that girl how I feel. And for 20 years it seems she's snubbed me. I guess I have to say how I feel in exactly the right way or she won't figure out what I mean.

Read Luke 11:5-13
Luke - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway 11&version=NKJV

I don't see any instructions in those verses, only that Jesus is saying that if you ask Him for something He'll provide it. Let me know if I'm reading this wrong.

Evidence is provided to all who ask seek and knock as instructed in Luke 11. Or did you really think we are ALL so foolish to believe in a God we do not know? Seriously?

How do you know? Don't the 1.5 billion Muslims "know" Allah? Or the other monotheistic religions? How can you dismiss their beliefs with a wave of your hand like that?

It has nothing to do with what I believe but how you follow the instructions given you. Will you humble yourself and follow what He has told you to do?

I've already humbled myself to the best of my knowledge, over and over again, and not so much as a touch on the cheek.

God is not limited, but the words we ascribe to His infinite nature are.

I'm pretty sure omnipotence allows for logically impossible things to be done.

Then do a search of the Omni aspects of God.

I did, and I didn't get much in the way of helpful results from the forums. I was hoping for someone to respond to, not just read, though. Any specific search criteria?

God is not described this way in the bible. In fact none of the Omni aspects of God are used in the Bible. God describes Himself as "I am, The Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End." These descriptions do not limit Him. Any follower of the God of the bible must limit His description of God by what the bible says and not by what well meaning religion teaches.

Even if the Bible doesn't explicitly use the words omnipotent or omniscient, it absolutely implies them.

Omniscience:
1 John 3:19-20

By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Omnipotence:
Matthew 19:26


Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

I don't see how you can get around these, unless, of course, there's some ancient Hebrew I'm not extrapolating.

It means to say that only those outside of the righteousness of God regard His righteousness as meaningless.

No, just that God being the most powerful being anywhere doesn't mean everything that He does is right because He says so.

 

[Jonathan95]

How do you know? Don't the 1.5 billion Muslims "know" Allah? Or the other monotheistic religions? How can you dismiss their beliefs with a wave of your hand like that?

Islam is a religion. They don't know God. The God they follow is not the God of Israel who sent his only son to die for us. Following Jesus is having a relationship with him etc.

Matthew 11:27
All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.

2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs on ahead [of God] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ [who is not content with what He taught] does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ [does have God], he has both the Father and the Son.

 

[Jonathan95]

I'm glad to see there are a lot of people there who agree with me that eternal torment is a bonkers thing to believe that a just God would create and perpetuate. Still, I can't dismiss it outright as it's a lot of interpretation and debate, but I hope that I'll make my mind up about it after reading through a few threads.

"My God wouldn't send anybody to hell!" / "My God doesn't let people suffer for eternity in hell!" --> Graven image.

 

[Timothew]

"My God wouldn't send anybody to hell!" / "My God doesn't let people suffer for eternity in hell!" --> Graven image.

No, a graven image is a likeness that is carved into something.

 

[drich0150]

I made no such assertion.

Indeed you did when you posted your verse in psalms.

That's quite a leap from asking how something omnipresent could not exist somewhere.

You did not ask anything you pressed forward with your Omni present doctrine citing the mistranslated verse in Psalms.

The verse I presented hardly suggests that God "resides" in Hell, only that He must also be there if omnipresent.

Which if the crux of the issue. The bible does not use that word nor teach it. Religious men constructed/added to what bible does say to create that doctrine.

Again for your verse in the Psalms the word being translated into Hell is Sheol which simply means the grave. We know this to be true because the Jews did not believe in Hell as defined by Christianity so there would not have been a verse telling us God is in Hell.

Once again, excuse me for not having read every single transcript and piece of parchment in Hebrew and Greek on this subject. I can only assume that if it says hell the translation I'm reading, then it means hell. I am not an expert.

You do not have to be. All anyone needs is a desire to know what a given passage says in the original text. And then cross book chapter and verse in a lexicon like:Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

There you can literally take any given translation and cross it to the original Greek and Hebrew words.

I only presented the verse as a conversation topic and a counterpoint to your statement. Nowhere did I say anything else about it besides that it looked to support the idea of omnipresence.

And what I am saying is that that doctrine is not taught by the bible. As the bible does not tell us God's presents can be found in Hell. It can be found in Sheol or the Grave yes but we have nothing that says that there is an eternal presents of God in Hell. Which in of itself disproves that doctrine.

And you are the authority?

The bible is, and unless you can show me book chapter and verse that specifically says God is Omni anything then know you are the one speaking from "your opinion and your interpretation."

All you're giving me is your opinion and your interpretation of what the Bible says about God's omnipotence.

Not opinion, fact. The bible does not describe God as Omni anything. Again if you believe this to be an opinion all you need do is provide book chapter and verse.

I don't know what would convince me, but God does. If He wanted me to know that He was there for sure then it wouldn't be any problem for Him to make Himself known to me.

Again He does not want you to know anything unless you approach Him in a very specific way (on His terms.)

Oh, but I have told that girl how I feel. And for 20 years it seems she's snubbed me. I guess I have to say how I feel in exactly the right way or she won't figure out what I mean.

Yes, you have to approach as you have been instructed or "how you feel" will not have been communicated.

I don't see any instructions in those verses, only that Jesus is saying that if you ask Him for something He'll provide it. Let me know if I'm reading this wrong.

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.

This story illustrates the point being that is going to be made in the next section.

Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

At this point you should be asking yourself; what is being offered? Is this a blanket invitation to ask for anything you want or is something specific being offered.

11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone?Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13

Bread, fish and egg All are representations of sustenance. Your next question should be what Kind of sustenance(Spiritual) is God offering.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

So the Holy Spirit is the sustenance being offered. You next Question needs to be "So what does the Holy Spirit offer me as a none believer." Before we can proceed.

How do you know? Don't the 1.5 billion Muslims "know" Allah?

Because I have studied their beliefs and can say unless you are a prophet, no one speaks to allah. Which makes relationship impossible.

Or the other monotheistic religions? How can you dismiss their beliefs with a wave of your hand like that?

Because I have studied them and none offer what Christ does.

I've already humbled myself to the best of my knowledge, over and over again, and not so much as a touch on the cheek.

You are not asked to humble yourself to the best of your knowledge. You have been given a very specific set of instructions.

Even if the Bible doesn't explicitly use the words omnipotent or omniscient, it absolutely implies them.

This is a fallacy of a false cause/Non sequitur For the bible can not imply the doctrine of any of the Omni aspects of God if the bible was written 1000 years before these doctrine were compiled. You have it backwards. The Omni aspects of God were derived from the scripture.

I don't see how you can get around these, unless, of course, there's some ancient Hebrew I'm not extrapolating.

what about a simple time line?

No, just that God being the most powerful being anywhere doesn't mean everything that He does is right because He says so.

Indeed it does.

 

[Jonathan95]

No, a graven image is a likeness that is carved into something.

Are you good enough to go to Heaven? The Ten Commandments and you. • ChristianAnswers.Net

Graven image

This means that we shouldn’t make a god to suit ourselves, either with our hands or our mind. I was guilty of this. I made a god to suit myself. My god didn’t mind a “white” lie or a fib here and there—in fact, he didn’t exist. He was a figment of my imagination, an “image” which I shaped to suit myself. Is your God the One revealed in Holy Scripture? If not, then you have made your own god to suit yourself—you have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.