Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[Aldebaran]

Actually, yes I have used memorized poems for example when in love. Do you have a problem with non-improvised prayer in general? Like, you don't use the Lord's prayer and stuff?

No. The Lord's prayer as Christ said it was simply a model of what we're to pray about. We're to pray that his will be done rather than our own. We're to pray for the things we need such as food. We're to pray for forgiveness from God and we're to forgive others as well. It wasn't meant to be a prayer in itself. When I pray, I simply talk to God as if I were talking to another person. Other people understand me when I use my own words. God is WAY above other people, so I assume he understands what I'm saying too.
I've always seen those memorized phrases and chants as if they were supposed to be some sort of secret key to unlock the will of God or something. I've heard Catholic radio programs where chants are repeated many times and I have never seen the purpose of it.

 

[Open Heart]

No. The Lord's prayer as Christ said it was simply a model of what we're to pray about. We're to pray that his will be done rather than our own. We're to pray for the things we need such as food. We're to pray for forgiveness from God and we're to forgive others as well. It wasn't meant to be a prayer in itself. When I pray, I simply talk to God as if I were talking to another person. Other people understand me when I use my own words. God is WAY above other people, so I assume he understands what I'm saying too.
I've always seen those memorized phrases and chants as if they were supposed to be some sort of secret key to unlock the will of God or something. I've heard Catholic radio programs where chants are repeated many times and I have never seen the purpose of it.

Well at least you are consistant.

There is nothing mysterious or like a secret key in Liturgy that unlocks the will of God. Liturgy is simply an ancient form of worship that is still used today because quite frankly it works for most people. (Not all) Jesus would have participated in Liturgy when he went to the synagogues, reciting psalms and prayers, etc. There is nothing wrong with it. It may be that it is simply foreign to you.

 

[Berean777]

Actually he did. The greek word, kecharitomene (which is used only one time in scripture) has charitoo as its root word, which means grace. Catholic scholars sometimes translate this as grace and sometimes as favored. I am not personally a scholar, but it seems to me there are good arguments on both sides, as neither translation really captures what kecharitomene means. The best way to think about it is that both translations, "full of grace" and "highly favored one," are correct.

Even if you interpret it that way, which is questionable according to many scholars and translators of the New Testament, your statement would still imply Mary is the source of grace......

Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE.

The context of the statement from the angel Gabriel is that Mary is the Virgin that has been Graced or favoured by God as his servant.

To say Hail Mary full of grace is misleading because it would be suggestive that Mary is the source of grace and really is an uncharitable twisting of the angel's contextual statement. Let us say, that the Catholic translators were correct and it is the word grace, then Mary is the recipient of grace because the Holy one inside of her is.................

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ

The Holy one Jesus Christ inside of her was the source of grace and truth and so Mary in this circumstance has been graced by the Holy one of Israel inside of her.

Now do you understand why Mary is not the source of grace or at least acknowledge that the statement Hail Mary full of grace is a misleading statement that plagiarises the angel's statement that is intended for the source of grace Jesus Christ.

To make Mary as the source of grace through chants can be construed by many as plagiaristic to say the least. Therefore you have to reference the source of grace who is Jesus Christ.

You can say Hail Mary imputed full of grace by Jesus Christ. This would be referencing the source of grace. Hail Mary imputed the righteousness of Jesus Christ, again this would be correct and transparent.

 

[Berean777]

...

 

[Open Heart]

Even if you interpret it that way, which is questionable according to many scholars and translators of the New Testament, your statement would still imply Mary is the source of grace......

No, being full of God's grace doesn't make one the source of that grace. I can be full of orange juice, but I'm not an orange tree. By pretending I'm making Mary the source of grace, you essentially set up a Straw Man, and then wasted your time on a post to knock it down.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi

FULL OF GRACE

“FULL OF GRACE!” That is the term that the archangel Gabriel used when addressing Mary, in Luke 1:28. Notice that Gabriel does not call her by her name of Mary, but instead calls her “Full of Grace.” This new name for Mary indicates a change in her status in life, just like when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham, Sarai’s name was changed to Sarah, Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, and when Simon’s name was changed to Kephas (Rock), or Peter. The actual term in Greek (the original language that Luke was written in) is “kecharitomene,” which is the perfect passive participle of the Greek word “charitoo” (grace). In other words, kecharitomene means “You who have been graced.” And when you add the word “full” to kecharitomene, Gabriel is calling Mary by her new title of “You who have been filled with grace.” And as anyone knows, when you are full of anything, there is no room left over for anything else. Therefore, Mary, who was full of God’s grace, could not sin, or have the stain of original sin on her soul, because there was no room for any of that. Romans 6:14 says: “Forsin will have no dominion over you,since you are not under law but under grace.” And while this is true for all of us sinners to a degree, it is fully true of Mary, who is not only under grace, but is FULL OF GRACE.


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Why is all of this significant? Because some erroneous translations of Luke 1:28 say “highly favored daughter,” which takes God’s grace out of the picture. “Charitoo” means “Grace,” not “favor.” But this erroneous translation was no accident; it was by design to downgrade the role of Mary in salvation. Catholics know and believe that Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus precisely because she was already full of grace due to God’s design; Protestants believe that Mary was somehow lucky to be chosen as God’s mother, and was therefore “highly favored.” Some even go so far as to say that Mary was the “incubator” of Jesus, and that God would have just chosen some other virgin if Mary had said no. But that isn’t how God works. God said in Jeremiah 1:5 that he knew Jeremiah before he was born, and had appointed him as a prophet to the nations. The same goes for us all, who have a destiny in the Kingdom of God. Some of us accept that destiny and fulfill it, while others reject it for the pleasures of this world. Mary was predestined to be the mother of God from all eternity, and the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 foretells that the savior would be born of a virgin.

So what does one say when Romans 3:23 is brought up – “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?” The Greek word used for “all” is “pas,” and while it can be used to mean “each and everyone,” it is also used to mean “some.” For example, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says: ”For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL (PAS) be made alive.” We know this to be very true for all of those who fully accept Jesus and do his will, but we also know that not ALL (PAS) will. And in Rom 15:14 it says: ”And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with ALL (PAS) knowledge, able also to admonish one another. “ But we know that not every Christian is filled with ALL (PAS) knowledge!

There is another example of scripture where the term “full of grace” is used, in Acts 6:8: And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.” But the Greek term for “full of grace” here is not “kecharitomene,” but rather, “pleres charitos.” “Pleres charitos” is a different tense of being filled with grace, and means “a temporary filling with grace at that point in time,” and does not equate to kechariomene,” which means “has been filled with grace.”

In other words, Mary was chosen by God from all time to be His mother (not His incubator) on earth, by being created full of grace. Original sin (Romans 5:12) is passed on from generation to generation through the womb, and just like Jesus was sinless, even from the womb, so was Mary created sinless by God in order to be the perfect, stainless Ark of the Covenant, who’s purpose in life is to hold the Word of God made flesh (for 9 months) and to be part of salvation history.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

No, being full of God's grace doesn't make one the source of that grace. I can be full of orange juice, but I'm not an orange tree. By pretending I'm making Mary the source of grace, you essentially set up a Straw Man, and then wasted your time on a post to knock it down.

Hi,
And OOPS!, maybe. Who are you? You certainly need nothing from me. I am sorry, that I worried over you.
Are you a nun?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Open Heart]

“Charitoo” means “Grace,” not “favor.”

Thank you for the excellent post, sister.

To be fair, if grace is God's forgiveness, it is his restored favor. It's kind of the same thing. Which is why even Catholic scholars translate it both ways.

 

[Berean777]

No, being full of God's grace doesn't make one the source of that grace. I can be full of orange juice, but I'm not an orange tree. By pretending I'm making Mary the source of grace, you essentially set up a Straw Man, and then wasted your time on a post to knock it down.

Hail Mary full of grace implies she is the source of grace.

Chanting it repeatedly is giving her the title of grace. I didn't knock down the valid statement that I made, I simply considered it from an unbiased point of view with all fairness intended.

I did say that she was graced by the Holy one inside of her and that he is the source of grace. I then proceeded to allow you to be more transparent by saying that the grace is imputed and not one that requires veneration as you are by your works doing when chanting this statement as indicating that it belongs to her.

Can someone say.....

Open heart full of righteousness hundreds of times and not be concerned that the message is lost in an idolatrous practice where devotion is pointed to the focal object that is Open heart for example. I used this example to continue from your example.

In the same way that the chanting of Hail Mary full of grace is lost in an idolatrous practice where devotion through veneration that started in 431AD that my church opposed still continues where Mary is now the object of worship.

Please find straws here.....

Your clasping at straws because that is your only response to a valid charge that any apostle would lay upon a practice that takes the ownership of grace from the source and venerates it to a created being as the object of worship.

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-dont-protestants-bless-mary.7890211/page-12#post-68405614">Why don't protestants bless Mary?</a>

 

[prodromos]

Hail Mary full of grace implies she is the source of grace.

No it doesn't, not even remotely. But don't let me spoil any enjoyment you get knocking down that strawman you keep putting up there.

 

[Berean777]

No it doesn't, not even remotely. But don't let me spoil any enjoyment you get knocking down that strawman you keep putting up there.

Thank you for your kind words. I do my best because I can't be seen only taking one side.

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-dont-protestants-bless-mary.7890211/page-12#post-68405879">Why don't protestants bless Mary?</a>

 

[Berean777]

This is why Protestants are turned of from blessing Mary because they see her veneration that started from 431AD as an idolatrous practice and guess what since that council of Ephesus the first of many schisms started within the church. This is the fruit of the spirits that resulted from this veneration practice.

In fact in the council of Ephesus Mary was called Theotokos (God bearer) after they took out Peter's elected church at Babylon who stood opposed to Rome by saying she is Christokos (Christ bearer), by condemning the church as heretical,my hey then proceeded in later years to deify Mary through the Mariology gospel.

As Seinfeld used to say look to the cookie look to the cookie. I say look to the schisms look to the schism for that is the result from the fruit of that spirit which obviously could not have been the Lord's doing but that which greatly diverged from the apostolic teachings and old liturgy of the church at Babylon.

 

[katerinah1947]

Thank you for the excellent post, sister.

To be fair, if grace is God's forgiveness, it is his restored favor. It's kind of the same thing. Which is why even Catholic scholars translate it both ways.

Hi,

If, Steven and Jesus are full of grace also, thus the person here who wants to say that Mary, being full of grace, means she is the Source of Grace, rather than God and Jesus is God also, he has now five people to him, that are the source of Grace.

Jesus, God The Father, The Holy Spirit, and now Mary and Steven, are all sources of Grace to him. That is five, people to me.

However, Who or What is the Source of passed on grace, or given grace? To have, like a rich man has wealth is not to pass it on, it is to hold. So, how is it that he is thinking that having grace, or even being full of grace, means that no one else has any to pass on, or to share, but those full of grace?

I do not understand.



LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Berean777]

There are many that are counted as righteous, though there is only one who is righteous who has imputed his righteousness onto our account, by his righteousness alone, Jesus is venerated, glorified, deified, Lordified alone.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

It is in my logical opinion that Mary being venerated in the first centuries was due to the sheer magnificence of the events altogether- people were astounded by Christ coming in the flesh, and Mary was included in having given birth to the child.

That is why, in tradition, she is still venerated. But only for that reason.
The Roman and Greek churches have taken that fanaticism far and beyond, especially in Rome, where she is put right next to Christ.

It is in conviction that'd I'd say between the pope and Mary, Christ may well assume their form and nothing else in this life or the next since apparently he can't do anything of his own accord_

 

[Berean777]

It is in my logical opinion that Mary being venerated in the first centuries was due to the sheer magnificence of the events altogether- people were astounded by Christ coming in the flesh, and Mary was included in having given birth to the child.

That is why, in tradition, she is still venerated. But only for that reason.
The Roman and Greek churches have taken that fanaticism far and beyond, especially in Rome, where she is put right next to Christ.

It is in conviction that'd I'd say between the pope and Mary, Christ may well assume their form and nothing else in this life or the next since apparently he can't do anything of his own accord_

Sorry this is not correct, Mary was never venerated in the first century by any church tradition. The church at Babylon challenged Rome even to the end when they delayed Rome from venerating Mary until they were taken out in the council of Ephesus in 431AD. All the other churches were wielded by Rome within the synod by using flatteries to maliciously and falsely accuse this church founded by Saint Thomas in 34AD and elected by Peter in his epistles as a Nestroian heretical church. The label itself is fallacious but through flatteries they were able to deceive the other churches and take out what was holding the Mariology gospel of venerating Mary from being manifested. No sooner after the church at Babylon was ostracised and taken out that Mary veneration started to come into play in 431AD, the same year that the church of the East/Babylon was falsely labeled Nestorian heretics.

This was the first schism that led to many schisms. So if one wanted to know the truth, they need to look at the fruits of the spirit that manifested after this evil deed against the elected church at Babylon. The schisms that followed were a sign that God had abandoned them because they censored his voice through his elected church by taken her out of the way.

There is no highway of God under Rome, it is the Assyrians, the men of Nineveh who Jesus spoke of and who are prophesied in Isaiah 19:23-25 to be his handy work and the highway that he opens for Egypt, who are symbol of the Gentiles, to come and serve alongside of them and not the Vatican. The 1st century Jewish apostles knew this formulae and they adhered to it by preaching to their Semitic brothers from the church of the East at Babylon, before Peter would even contemplate to preach to the Gentiles until Acts 10 where he was directed to by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Sorry this is not correct, Mary was never venerated in the first century by any church tradition.

The Assumption of Mary, which the Roman Church declared as infallible doctrine, is heavily designated on Early Christianity- in which she rose from the dead.
I mean, do I really need to explain more?

 

[Berean777]

The Assumption of Mary, which the Roman Church declared as infallible doctrine, is heavily designated on Early Christianity- in which she rose from the dead.
I mean, do I really need to explain more?

They may or may not have had the doctrine to serve to the congregation, but know this that they were not the first church and they wanted to force this doctrine and were opposed by the church at Babylon until they conspired to take her out in 431AD. Then after taking the Assyrian church of Babylon out of the way and sabotaged the highway of God they then did as they pleased by now openly serving this doctrine by venerating Mary and then later openly publishing the Mariology gospel.

You have to stop thinking that the Church of Rome was the church. The very bishop of Rome who eventually became a pope was ordained as bishop by the same church at Babylon that they assassinated at the council of Ephesus in 431AD and this was the first schism amongst many that highlight to all the fruits of the spirit and these fruits were definitely not from God.

Do you get the drift on what had happened historically.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

You have to stop thinking that the Church of Rome was the church.

I'm a Protestant.
If you thought I was defending the Church, well, I wasn't

There's just so much misinformation in today's world; I don't like misconceptions.

 

[Berean777]

I'm a Protestant.
If you thought I was defending the Church, well, I wasn't

There's just so much misinformation in today's world; I don't like misconceptions.

Study from scriptures who the church at Babylon was and what happened at the council of Ephesus.

Isaiah 19:23-25 states that the Assyrians are his handy work and that Egypt which is the gentile world will serve alongside of them. This was happening until Rome sabotaged the highway at the council of Ephesus.