If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Trump expected to attack Biden's border policies and crime in Michigan and Wisconsin visits

LANSING, Mich. — Donald Trump is expected on Tuesday to attack President Joe Biden over his handling of the U.S.-Mexico border when he visits Wisconsin and Michigan, both critical battleground states in the 2024 election.

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That Mary was a virgin has been passed down to us through history. There are not a lot of historical records that survived from earliest Christianity, the earliest record is from a time when human beings who were alive at the time of Mary's death were still alive. This was long before Protestantism. As I have pointed out elsewhere, your claim "that Mary and Joseph had other children as mentioned in Scripture" is false.

The first written record of the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is found in Infancy Gospel of James (aka Book of James or Protoevangelium of James) (PoJ). The PoJ was written c170 CE. Origen mentioned it about 220 CE. Clement of Alexandria also mentions it in about 200 CE. Augustine, also a “church father”, however, appears to be the first who will clearly clean up, expound, and tie the doctrine together from where the PoJ ends.

The PoJ is not Scripture and it has Jesus being born in a cave. One manuscript exists from the 3rd century and all others are dated from the 10th century on. It is mentioned, as stated above, by early church fathers and we think it was written around 170 CE. This book is attributed to James but there is no proof it was the same James as in the NT Book of James. Regardless, it has never been considered canonical.

There were many speculations in the early church regarding Mary. Some believed that Jesus' birth did not include an afterbirth or umbilical cord. They believed that Jesus just "passed through" her and "took nothing from her." Others believed it was a normal birth. Since the earliest written record of such a belief comes from the late second century, we truly don't know when it started or how widely it was held. Even while the Apostles were alive there were attempts to pervert the truth and invent things like the Gnostics. They didn't have to wait until that generation died off to begin to alter the teachings of Scripture. Since Mary's perpetual virginity is not taught in Scripture, it was rife with speculation. While the writings of the early church fathers are instructive, they are not Scripture. They had their own opinions and speculations. I won't take what they wrote as gospel.

 

[Valletta]

The first written record of the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is found in Infancy Gospel of James (aka Book of James or Protoevangelium of James) (PoJ). The PoJ was written c170 CE. Origen mentioned it about 220 CE. Clement of Alexandria also mentions it in about 200 CE. Augustine, also a “church father”, however, appears to be the first who will clearly clean up, expound, and tie the doctrine together from where the PoJ ends.

The PoJ is not Scripture and it has Jesus being born in a cave. One manuscript exists from the 3rd century and all others are dated from the 10th century on. It is mentioned, as stated above, by early church fathers and we think it was written around 170 CE. This book is attributed to James but there is no proof it was the same James as in the NT Book of James. Regardless, it has never been considered canonical.

There were many speculations in the early church regarding Mary. Some believed that Jesus' birth did not include an afterbirth or umbilical cord. They believed that Jesus just "passed through" her and "took nothing from her." Others believed it was a normal birth. Since the earliest written record of such a belief comes from the late second century, we truly don't know when it started or how widely it was held. Even while the Apostles were alive there were attempts to pervert the truth and invent things like the Gnostics. They didn't have to wait until that generation died off to begin to alter the teachings of Scripture. Since Mary's perpetual virginity is not taught in Scripture, it was rife with speculation. While the writings of the early church fathers are instructive, they are not Scripture. They had their own opinions and speculations. I won't take what they wrote as gospel.

There are not a lot writings preserved on the subject from the first two centuries, but in the writings of the 300s we know it was well accepted. Even Protestant reformers from Luther to Zwigli to Calvin accepted it. I know Calvin was aghast at some of the attacks on the beliefs about Mary, I think a lot of it came as anti-Catholic reaction. That is, a Protestant approach of "what can we find that Catholics say that is not explicitly said in the Bible?" So much attention, and to a OSAS Christian what difference to their salvation would it make if Mary were or were not a perpetual virgin? Why so much attention?

 

[Grafted In]

I am not catholic.
May I comment on this forum?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

There are not a lot writings preserved on the subject from the first two centuries, but in the writings of the 300s we know it was well accepted. Even Protestant reformers from Luther to Zwigli to Calvin accepted it. I know Calvin was aghast at some of the attacks on the beliefs about Mary, I think a lot of it came as anti-Catholic reaction. That is, a Protestant approach of "what can we find that Catholics say that is not explicitly said in the Bible?" So much attention, and to a OSAS Christian what difference to their salvation would it make if Mary were or were not a perpetual virgin? Why so much attention?

I agree that believing in or against Mary's perpetual virginity is not a matter of salvation. It is part of a package of dogmas about Mary two of which greatly concern some. Those are her immaculate conception and her sinless life. We very much feel those two fly in the face of Scripture; violating verses that teach that all are born in sin and sin in life. Her perpetual virginity is of less importance although we still believe a natural reading of Scripture would lead one to conclude she and Joseph had other children and we don't see "why so much attention" is given to the belief she had other children. As for her assumption into heaven, once again not a lick of Biblical support. Nothing is written about her death but we were told about Enoch and Elijah being taken up into heaven. It is a notable exception to the human experience that it seems unlikely no mention would be made of it. That doesn't prove anything but neither is there proof she was taken up into heaven not tasting death. We see it as an unscriptural attempt to elevate Mary to a position Scripture does not give her. To have been saved from original sin, lived a sinless life, and then taken up to heaven would be highly noteworthy events, and yet Scripture is silent. Mary is virtually unmentioned beyond the Book of Acts including in John's epistles who was given care of her by Jesus.

It is true those three reformers believed in her perpetual virginity. Calvin did not believe in her immaculate conception or sinless life. There are cardinal doctrines in the Catholic church that took centuries to develop. Not all were of unanimous agreement within the magisterium of the church. The focus of the early reformers was on salvation and the abuses they saw in the church. They might not have given much thought to certain other doctrines. Regardless, while the Word of God does not change, man's understanding of it sometimes evolves as more time and thought are given to it. As I wrote, the same has happened in the Catholic church. Personally, the thought of Mary remaining a virgin does not bother me although I don't believe she did. It is the other beliefs about Mary that concern me.

 

[JoeT]

I am not catholic.
May I comment on this forum?

I don't see why not.

JoeT

 

[Grafted In]

Where is Mary now and what do you believe her exact purpose is?

I recall many years ago, shortly after becoming a Christian, stumbling across the Catholic tv channel. There was a very bold priest who was teaching and as I watched, I nodded my head agreement with his words. Sounded really good and solid.
Then suddenly he looked right into the camera and said, "And if you don't believe that Mary is in heaven with The Father and His and her son, you are going to hell.
She does not make intercession for me.
God's word says there is ONE intercesser between God and man, Christ Jesus, The Son of The Loving God.

How did you reach the conclusion that Mary is the Ark, by the way?

Why so very much of your time, effort and thoughts are with regard to Mary.
Why so very little of yourself focuses on God?

Blessed means very happy. Filled with joy.
Will you bless me, please.
Bless you, Soulx3

Grafted in

 

[prodromos]

God's word says there is ONE intercesser between God and man, Christ Jesus, The Son of The Loving God.

God's word says there is one MEDIATOR, not one intercessor. Christ is the one mediator between GOD and MAN because He is both God and man. Anyone who prays to God can be an intercessor for others.

 

[Grafted In]

God's word says there is one MEDIATOR, not one intercessor. Christ is the one mediator between GOD and MAN because He is both God and man. Anyone who prays to God can be an intercessor for others.

Thank you for pointing out my error. You are correct, of course.
I responded to this thread in haste. Makes no sense for me to have posted here in the first place.
Anyone is free to worship whoever or whatever they please.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

God's word says there is one MEDIATOR, not one intercessor. Christ is the one mediator between GOD and MAN because He is both God and man. Anyone who prays to God can be an intercessor for others.

Except, Mary does not pray to God. She is in heaven and can talk to God. She also cannot hear our prayers. Only God can hear prayers in heaven. Prayer, by definition, is communication to God. While pagans pray to fictional gods, those are not true prayers. We have NO examples in Scripture of believers praying to anyone other than God Himself. Only idolatrous prayers that are condemned. We are commanded not to try and contract the dead. No exception is given for Mary or the so-called Saints. No one ever prayed to Moses, or Elijah, or John the Baptist (after his death). Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Christ "ever lives to make intercession for us." If we have Jesus, who is the one mediator between God and man, making intercession for us, why would we go to Mary (not that we can)? God is sovereign. He is not going to change His mind because of Mary's request. He knows our needs before we even pray and He knows His answer to our needs. We pray not to change God's will to our will but to change our will to God's will.

 

[prodromos]

Except, Mary does not pray to God. She is in heaven and can talk to God. She also cannot hear our prayers. Only God can hear prayers in heaven. Prayer, by definition, is communication to God. While pagans pray to fictional gods, those are not true prayers. We have NO examples in Scripture of believers praying to anyone other than God Himself. Only idolatrous prayers that are condemned. We are commanded not to try and contract the dead. No exception is given for Mary or the so-called Saints. No one ever prayed to Moses, or Elijah, or John the Baptist (after his death). Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Christ "ever lives to make intercession for us." If we have Jesus, who is the one mediator between God and man, making intercession for us, why would we go to Mary (not that we can)? God is sovereign. He is not going to change His mind because of Mary's request. He knows our needs before we even pray and He knows His answer to our needs. We pray not to change God's will to our will but to change our will to God's will.

The Church has a long history of intercessory prayer by the Saints. I have personally witnessed several miracles through the prayers of the Saints.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The Church has a long history of intercessory prayer by the Saints. I have personally witnessed several miracles through the prayers of the Saints.

Perhaps, or perhaps Satan's deception.

 

[prodromos]

Perhaps, or perhaps Satan's deception.

It's backfiring badly if it is. We all give glory to God.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

It's backfiring badly if it is. We all give glory to God.

There is no category of Christians called Saints in the Bible. Just "saints" which includes all believers. We are all the saints. No one in heaven, save God, can hear our prayers. All the miracles of Apostles were performed by calling upon Jesus. We have no examples in Scripture of anyone praying to the dead.

 

[prodromos]

There is no category of Christians called Saints in the Bible. Just "saints" which includes all believers. We are all the saints. No one in heaven, save God, can hear our prayers. All the miracles of Apostles were performed by calling upon Jesus. We have no examples in Scripture of anyone praying to the dead.

I'm Eastern Orthodox. We don't follow Protestant notions. We don't pray to the dead either, the Saints are very much alive in Christ.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I'm Eastern Orthodox. We don't follow Protestant notions. We don't pray to the dead either, the Saints are very much alive in Christ.

Being dead is in reference to their earthly lives. All the dead are alive in a spiritual sense. Even the souls awaiting hell. Our souls are eternal. If your great grandfather was a believer, he is alive in Christ though dead, would you pray to him?

 

[prodromos]

Being dead is in reference to their earthly lives. All the dead are alive in a spiritual sense. Even the souls awaiting hell. Our souls are eternal. If your great grandfather was a believer, he is alive in Christ though dead, would you pray to him?

If God had revealed that my great grandfather was a righteous man, absolutely.

 

[JoeT]

Where is Mary now and what do you believe her exact purpose is?

I recall many years ago, shortly after becoming a Christian, stumbling across the Catholic tv channel. There was a very bold priest who was teaching and as I watched, I nodded my head agreement with his words. Sounded really good and solid.
Then suddenly he looked right into the camera and said, "And if you don't believe that Mary is in heaven with The Father and His and her son, you are going to hell.

The priest wasn't being bold at all. There is a reason for the Marian doctrine of assumption. To put crudely, Catholics hold that if the Mother of God isn't risen by virtue of her motherhood there can be little hope anyone else. It also implies that you do not believe the soul of Jesus Christ is both God and man, inseparably joined, without mingling, mixing or confusion. Thus, you believe that Christ is created, an absurdity - God does not make gods, and you believe salvation comes from the act of believing in His name only, not His grace. A common error in Protestantism.

She does not make intercession for me.
God's word says there is ONE intercessor between God and man, Christ Jesus, The Son of The Loving God.

If you don't ask for her to pray for you, then she wont. Scripture is says "there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus," [1 Timothy 2:5]. He is the one and only mediator who gave His life for the redemption of man. That doesn't mean others alive in Christ can't mediate through their prayers for whatever graces He wishes to extend. Those in Christ are spiritual brothers and sisters of Christ. Mary is the mother of Christ, thus being in Christ she is our spiritual mother as well.

How did you reach the conclusion that Mary is the Ark, by the way?

The covenant of Moses was placed in an Ark whereon God resides. The Personification of the Word was in the womb of Mary, thus she becomes a type of Ark bearing God; Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Jesus Christ is our Lord, King on earth and in heaven. The King's mother in antiquity was the Queen. Thus Mary becomes "Queen of Heaven". Christ sits at the right hand of God, Mary sits at the right hand of Jesus.

Why so very much of your time, effort and thoughts are with regard to Mary.
Why so very little of yourself focuses on God?

Mary magnifies the Lord according to Scripture. As our eyesight is poor we utilize an aid to enhance our sight. It is through Mary that we see the real Christ, it is only through Mary that one can focus

Blessed means very happy. Filled with joy.

In Catholicism:

BLESSING:

As found in Scripture, it means praise, the desire that good fortune go with a person or thing, dedication of a person or thing to God's service and a gift. In liturgical language a blessing is a ritual ceremony by which an authorized cleric in major orders sanctifies persons or things to divine service, or invokes divine favor on what he blesses. the Church's ritual provides for over two hundred such blessings, some of which are reserved to bishops or members of certain religious institutes. [Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary]

Will you bless me, please.

Done. Be blessed in your search for Truth.

Bless you, Soulx3

Grafted in

Thank you.

JoeT