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Why did God afflict Job?

Discussion in 'Word of Faith' started by simply christian, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    I can really relate to Job in the Bible. He goes through a great deal. However, I would like to know why God afflicts Job and why he does the same today. Even if we blame the devil, God still authorized Satan to attack Job. So how do we make sense of this, in light of Word of Faith teachings?
     
  2. jamadan

    jamadan Newbie

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    Could you please provide the actual quote that says God afflicted Job? It's not in my Bible that I can see. It says Satan afflicted Job.
     
  3. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    Certainly.

    God himself says,

    'And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.'

    The text here (Job 2:3) actually has God himself saying that Satan made God attack Job. Satan was able to persuade God to let him sift him like wheat. That's a scary thought.

    Both times, also, we see that Satan was given PERMISSION BY GOD to afflict Job. That is no different than a mob boss sending out a hitman to kill someone. Ok, maybe the mob boss did not pull the trigger, but he still authorized the killing. If God gave permission to Satan, then he effectively did it to Job.

    This is further seen in Job 42:11, when the bible says,

    'Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.'

    Job himself even said that we receive both good and evil from the hand of God. (Job 2:10)

    'But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.'

    Notice, Job did not sin by saying that.
     
  4. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Word of Faith Teacher

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    Yes, a scary thought indeed. Satan MADE God attack Job?

    Well, there went sovereignty right out the window.



    --------
    CF Rules:
    Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
    Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
     
  5. Abana

    Abana Newbie

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    I struggle with Job. I'll leave it at that.
     
  6. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    Yes, unless it was God's design to simply use Satan as his means to afflict Job, which is debatable. You will notice I did not mention the word "Sovereignty" of God.

    All this text tells me is that God was more than happy to oblige Satan's request, which means Satan can tell God what to do. That is a frightening thought. God is at Satan's behest?
     
  7. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Old guy -

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    "I can really relate to Job in the Bible. He goes through a great deal. However, I would like to know why God afflicts Job and why he does the same today.

    there were two PERSONAL PROBLEMS that Job had, and God's PROCESS as described in the Book was designed to cause them to surface so that Job could repent of them:

    BEhemoth - Job's tendency to Do thing in HIS OWN strength, independent of God.

    And Leviathan - Job's personal issue with self pride.

    "Even if we blame the devil, God still authorized Satan to attack Job."

    Why would we "blame the devil"?? it's perfectly obvious that God STARTED the process, and Controlled it all the way through to its successful conclusion (Job's repentence in Chapter 42).

    "So how do we make sense of this, in light of Word of Faith teachings?"

    Simple - you don't pay any attention to "Word of faith teachings" which always throw the blame for problems on the "Victim".

    Bottom line - we're being CONFORMED to Jesus' Image in the life process (romans 8:28-30), and God will HURT US TERRIBLY when our situation requires it - but He will NEVER "Harm us", and we'll come out of the "mill" better than we went in.
     
  8. PastorMike

    PastorMike Newry Christian Centre

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    Funny that you would fall into the same pit that Job fell into, you are trying to blame God for everything to make you look good (or the innocent Party)

    Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

    Job was condemning God to make him look good or blaming God when Job was really to blame...

    Prov. 26:2 so the curse causeless shall not alight

    Prov. 3:33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
     
  9. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Word of Faith Teacher

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    You may not have "mentioned" it, but it was written all over the text. God is sovereign and God is omnipotent. Satan cannot manipulate Him.

    Further, God using Satan as His "means" is synonymous to this:
    Matthew 12:25-26
    But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
    God is perfection; perfect Love, perfect Holiness. He does not have a need to use evil to further His divine Will. Do you not think that the God of all existence doesn't have means to have His will enacted without using some means that is less than holy? Mighty human of you.

    Let me assume for just one second (for that is all my senses can take of this abhorrant thought) that you interpretation of Job 2:3 is correct: I don't see God's "happiness" in being moved in this way.

    No. We have several things at work here. One is free will -- both Job's and Satan's. What you take as God either ordering or offering Satan opportunity I see simply as God referring to his free will to attempt to come against Job. The earth is the domain of man; God put us here and gave us dominion over all that is here, to rule over, to subdue, to tend and keep. See Psalm 82:6 -- we have been told to judge and to rule (we are called elohim).

    God gave us an offer:
    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    Free will. We choose. We can choose blessing or we can choose the curse. (God gives a big hint here: choose Life!)

    But Job stepped out of the blessing when he chose to fear and wander within his own sacrifices to protect his own, instead of trusting God. Note that this did not change his "standing" with God -- God still loved him and considered him a righteous man -- but Job stepped out of the blessing and into the curse:
    Job 1:10-12
    Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
    12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power;
    Job has a hedge around him. He stands in the blessing and the results are spoken of her: increase, what he touches is blessed, etc. Satan tries to get God to curse Job, but God simply says to Satan: you have the ability already to touch his stuff....

    Why? Because Job chose to fear, he recalls it here:
    Job 3:25
    For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me,
    And what I dreaded has happened to me.
    We see very early that Job has taken things into his own hands because he thinks that his children may be sinning, revelling, drinking:
    Job 1:5
    5 So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did regularly.
    The fact that Job would want to sancify them and make offerings according to the Lord's commandments is not necessarily the issue, but Job feared that the curse would touch him, he dreaded what would happen. And in so doing, he stepped out of his trust of the Lord and into the curse. He called these things upon himself; he opened the door (the hedge) for Satan to touch him.

    It is too easy to look at Job and come to a conclusion that God did this, and then to extrapolate that into God must be cause of my own problems. He must have a reason to have done this to me, just as He had a reason to have done that to Job.

    But God didn't "do" anything to Job. Unless if you want to say that simply because God gave man dominion and rule and choice that God is causal to the choices that man makes. But that would be disengenuous.

    Job had free will. He chose the curse. That opened a door for Satan; God simply recorded in scripture that this was the case. Job dropped his protection (see Ps 91 for instance). Satan touched him and his family and his stuff. Satan comes to steal, to kill and to destroy.

    God is Love. And He is holy and nothing evil is in Him nor with Him (nor in His use).
     
  10. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Word of Faith Teacher

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    Amen. :thumbsup:
     
  11. 7he4uthor

    7he4uthor 7he 7rue he4RT of 7he CRE4TOR

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    3407LOVE

    reading upside down





    por/job
     
  12. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant

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    I can relate to Job as well.

    I suffer from demon possession and until now, is still suffering from demon possession.

    God did not answer me as to why He allowed me to suffer from demon possession.

    Yet, one thing is certain, Job's story did not end with his suffering. He persevered in God and continued to trust in God in spite of suffering.

    The story ended with Job getting double the blessings he used to receive from God. Likewise, you ought to persevered in God and wait for God to offer you the 'double blessings' that are bound to come.

    That is what I am doing, anyway, hoping in hopeless situation for the 'blessings' to return to my life.
     
  13. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    Mentioning Job 3:25 is a good answer, but is it intellectually honest to take one passage and make a doctrine out of it? That is my concern.

    The text itself has God, not Satan, saying that God did the evil to Job. God's explanation didn't exactly clear that idea up either. It would be so much easier if Job simply was not in the bible. Then I would have less reason to doubt God or him being good. Job has probably destroyed more people's faith than any secular source. It has for me.

    Also, the only way we can really say God is still good, in light of Job, is to say that God had no control over the earth or people or his angels (including Satan). Is this true? I've heard things of the effect said before, but then we cannot possibly claim God is omnipotent in the traditional sense. In order for God to be all-powerful in the text, we must sacrifice his goodness or love. So which is it?

    Even if we blame the devil for Job's misfortunes, the text clearly says God authorized it all. What do you say about that?
     
  14. pk4yahweh

    pk4yahweh Pressing in...

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    These types of debates about Job get so tiring. Most if the time people start with "doubting God's goodness" and then find scriptures in Job to support that errant position - and THEN want others to disprove their conclusions. Difficult to prove a negative - it is!

    A quick search through the threads here will bring up numerous discussions on the correct application of the story of Job (for those really interested in learning).
     
  15. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    And you're too slothful to post those correct answers here? That's not very kind of you.

    The kind thing to do would be to share the truth as you understand it with those struggling.

    I am simply going by what the text says. If that is a problem for you, then I wonder.
     
  16. didaskalos

    didaskalos Guest

    Satan did not ask for or need permission to afflict Job.
    Show me where Satan said "give me permission" to get Job.


    To the contrary, satan told God to afflict Job. God, of course, never laid a hand on Job. Job, Job's wife, Job's servant, Jobs friends, and Jobs neigbors all blamed God. But show me specifically where "God reached down and touched Job." You will not find it. You will find that it was always and only satan.

    Not only did God NOT afflict Job, He intervened and prevented satan from doing what he could normally do - that is devour (kill) Job. God protected Job, not afflicted him.

    Satan is a roaring lion who is roaming around getting whomever he can. He no more needs permission to "get" a vulnerable person that a lion needs permission to "get" a vulnerable gazelle. Satan has the same permission to do whatever he can do as every other free agent in the universe.

    The word tells us to" be sober and vigilant. "

    If God gave satan permission(sic) to get us, what good would being sober and vigilant do us? This would be a moot issue.

    The word tells us to "resist the devil."

    If God gave satan permission(sic) to get us, what good would resisting him do us? This would be a moot issue.


    The reality is if you do not resist, fail to be sober, and fail to be vigilent... then the devil will be able to get you. He will not flee, he will attack, and he may even devour you.

    1. Satan is the "god of this world", which would be a meaningless assignment if in fact he could do nothing in his own domain.
    2 Corinthians 4:4
    4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    2. We have been given all authority over "the power of the enemy", satan therefore has power, which would be meaningless if he in fact could not exert that power. There is no evidence that he cannot do whatever he wants to whoever he wants to if nobody stands against him.
    Luke 10:19
    19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
    3. Satan directs the course of this world, is the prince of the power of the air, and his spirit works in the fallen people of this world.
    Ephesians 2:2
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    It is pure ignorance that says God afflicts us or even gives satan immediate and direct permission to afflict us. Satan does what he does because like everyone else in the universe he has standing permission to do whatever we can.

    Ephesians 6
    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil



    2 Corinthians 2
    11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

    Satan has wiles and devices. If you are ignorant of them,he will devour you. Blaming God is one of these wiles/devices. This is why he is devouring you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2013
  17. PastorMike

    PastorMike Newry Christian Centre

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  18. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    But you are completely ignoring what the bible actually says. You are ignoring Job to suit your own beliefs.

    God himself said, "You moved me to afflict him, without cause." There you have it. Later it says, God brought evil upon Job, not Satan. But you ignore this completely.
     
  19. 7he4uthor

    7he4uthor 7he 7rue he4RT of 7he CRE4TOR

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    interesting then that the 2 witnesses [rev]
    are witnesses of THE GOD OF THIS WORLD

    thr bible says 2 things
    - christ will rule the world/earth
    - satan is ruler of the world/earth

    these are 2 very obscure lines in the bible
    1- states that god is an angel
    2- states that you are gods

    moses said ---> ''my god is a MAN of war''
    [warlord/warlock] few ppl ever acknowledge these things
    and their teachings omit such things as god being a man
    or the witnesses being of satan, or the promise messia rules with a fascist rod of iron
    [sword] or that christs last commantment was to sell what you have and buy a sword
    or that his arrest happened after he assaulted ppl with a weapon [whip] at the temple


    the confusion about job, god/satan is easily cleared up by discarding the techings of man, god gives truth from inside, it isnt found on chat forums, churches, institutions, or teacher/preachers nor communicated between individuals.

    life can be accepted as the miricle it is, and the need to analyse everything, or attempt to make it fit into textbook formulas holds no value

    where were you when the morning stars sang creation into being
    son of the morning is who lucifer/jesus ?

    satan is what an idividual or demonic legion?
    god is what an individual or holy assembly of angels [body of christ]?
    when christ returned the 2nd time why didnt institutional churches recognize it ?

    poor job an envied rich man

    the god of this world is satan but christ will rule it
    trust the government its ordained by god but watch out for an antichrist ruler

    the bible states cleary that god hates [which god]
    jesus told ppl to worship the father, but was worshipped himself

    moses stated god is a man
    but jesus said a spirit

    job suffered prolonged torture
    this is a method of mind control
    after a while the victim identifies with the dungeon master as good

    what is good?
    to be kind/nice to everybody?
    or to excel in achieving an agenda/goal?

    if ppl were living their own lives
    minding their own business
    and free not only in their will to act but in their minds from programming
    how would things look ?

    job's life is his own



    the airwaves
    radio
    television
    and a worldwideweb which the spider uses to suck the life out of its prey [nsa] http://www.itanimulli.com

    at what point do ppl live their own lives
    and find enjoyment in the gift and each other
    analyzing things is destruction
    disecting, microscopes, second-guessing.

    elisha got a double-dose
    so did job
    elijah was taken up then returned as john and was beheaded
    returning at the same location east shore of jordan as his ascension

    all the things you want to figure out in an obscessive/compulsive manner
    many professionals call this mental illness
     
  20. simply christian

    simply christian Newbie

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    The bible does say those things, but God tells us in the old testament that HE is the *only God* and there are no other gods beside him, including us or the devil. The devil is simply an angel, not a god.

    You are right, Moses did call God a "man". In the old testament, God could appear like a man, even though he is not one. Theophany, it is called I believe.
     
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