Why aren't the natural sciences more welcoming?

Justatruthseeker

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The social sciences are nurturing. Maybe it is due simply to highly technical content or to differences in writing/presentation styles, but I have honestly almost never experienced mathematics or the natural sciences in that way.


Because the less assessable you make knowledge, the more arcane the language requiring specialty, the more control you have over any dissent. One simply must then defer to the so-called "experts." It is not welcoming because it is not meant to be. It does not invite you in because they do not want you in, they simply want you to believe what they tell you to believe. Without question. Research only in the avenues they point. Without question.

Sad state of affairs mainstream cosmology has fallen into, but as it happens we have been there before and will get through this religious epoch in Fairie Dust as well. Once the Earth was flat, then everything moved in epicycles with the Earth at the center. Then we were but part of the Milky-Way, the entire universe. Then the Milly-Way was but one of billions. Next we will be talking of our folly in ignoring what the universe is really composed of and how it really behaves.

Exciting times we are in, we get to witness the shift in paradigms in our cosmological theories!!!
 
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Loudmouth

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Naraoia

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It goes all the way back to formal instruction in elementary and secondary school. Mathematics and the natural sciences have almost never been presented to me as part of any intellectual tradition. It is like they are nothing but technical user's manuals that we have developed and people are either working on refining those manuals or fighting to keep their development funded, fighting to keep them from being destroyed by opponents of the process (you know...political battles such as the one over Darwinian evolution in public schools), etc. Very little about people's curiosity, people's place in the world, people being able to better appreciate the value of things, etc.

I am not saying that scientists never touch on the latter three themes. I am simply saying that my experience has been that such themes are extremely rare in the world of formal science.
Aw, that sounds like a very screwed up education. I'm lucky that I (a) never really got the political side of things (creationism isn't really an issue in Hungary) (b) got into science before I even went to school. I loved it too much to be discouraged by poor teaching. ^_^

I have not used the internet much to try to immerse myself in mathematics and science, and when I have it has been mostly sources such as Wikipedia that are not written intelligibly for the layperson.
Oh, Wikipedia maths pages are deadly.

I do the same thing that I do with the social sciences, humanities, etc.: I browse through the books and periodicals almost everywhere I go that they are sold. The result has been reading a little bit of Scientific American and Discover here and there and finding one book that I wanted to try: the aforementioned book by Kenneth R. Miller (and I spent plenty of money on it--it was a hardback; I will invest the time and money if it means having a richer intellectual life). The latter was worth reading--I recommend it often--but it was almost entirely more of the same: the politics of scientific education, the technology arms race, etc.
Yeah, Miller is heavily involved in the crevo "controversy", so I'm not surprised that his book is very much centred on political and social issues.

There are probably psychological barriers: the book that I need is right in front of me but I have internalized the belief that math and science are exceptional disciplines for exceptional minds and I am too intimidated to notice that book.
Could be :)

I think that part of the problem is that the things in the natural sciences that interest me seem to have been deemphasized. In physics I am interested in things like optics and acoustics. In biology I am mostly interested in ecology (ecology as pure theory, not as a part of environmentalism). If you are not looking for cosmology, evolution, genetics, etc. then there does not seem to be much left.
Oh. That will indeed be a problem. I'm afraid I'm interested in the "fashionable" subjects myself, so I have no idea if layperson-friendly books on, say, theoretical ecology even exist. (That, and most of my science reading nowadays is technical literature.)

Though it's geology/palaeontology/evolution, I can't not recommend Life on a Young Planet, which is one of my favourite science books ever. (The quote in my signature sums up its attitude pretty well, and is one of the reasons I loved it so much.)

Hmm, what other maths and science books did I like? If memory serves, Alex's Adventures in Numberland is quite fun. The physics things I have on my bookshelf are relativity or QM, unfortunately.

I'd certainly suggest looking around the blogosphere. I'm willing to bet that at least one good ecology or acoustics blog is out there somewhere waiting to be found. There are blogs about everything. (Not Exactly Rocket Science is a really good general one.)
 
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Michael

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Because the less assessable you make knowledge, the more arcane the language requiring specialty, the more control you have over any dissent. One simply must then defer to the so-called "experts." It is not welcoming because it is not meant to be. It does not invite you in because they do not want you in, they simply want you to believe what they tell you to believe. Without question. Research only in the avenues they point. Without question.

That depends on the field of "science" IMO. Particle physicists for instance seem to remain open to various "non standard" particle physics theories in spite of the incredible success of the standard model. Biologists also tend to debate various points of view quite openly as well. As you point out, cosmology is in really sorry shape at the moment, but I'd resist the temptation to paint all branches of science with the same wide brush strokes.

Exciting times we are in, we get to witness the shift in paradigms in our cosmological theories!!!

Always the eternal optimist I see. ;)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That depends on the field of "science" IMO. Particle physicists for instance seem to remain open to various "non standard" particle physics theories in spite of the incredible success of the standard model. Biologists also tend to debate various points of view quite openly as well. As you point out, cosmology is in really sorry shape at the moment, but I'd resist the temptation to paint all branches of science with the same wide brush strokes.



Always the eternal optimist I see. ;)


Yes, I have no problem with the "sciences" (particle physics, plasma research, chemistry, biology). But I do not consider current cosmology to be a science. Their theories are currently falsified by every "science," yet they pretend voyager, THEMIS and IBEX didn't falsify their entire stellar and galactic models. And still they try to defend a falsified cosmology, instead of embracing the next paradigm we are close to entering into.

I do believe this is an exciting time in science, the shift of paradigms in our cosmological beliefs! I see no alternative, it's coming and if one looks carefully at the the articles by NASA, they will see even it slowly embracing PC/EU cosmology.

Mainstream is just in the magnetic stage is all. But when the convection fails, again and again, they will finally realize magnetic fields are only created by moving charged particles. That when the circuit is broken the magnetic field collapses, and when the current reconnects, the magnetic field reforms.

There is no such Fairie Dust as magnetic reconnection, frozen in magnetic fields, magnetic field lines or magnetic monopoles. There exists no such thing as magnetism until two or more charges interact. Whether they be protons and electrons, or quarks, bosons, gluons, or whatever one wants to call a charged particle.

Quite the optimist :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XadqnsNFjoo&feature=c4-overview&list=UUvHqXK_Hz79tjqRosK4tWYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LPD6yqizc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUvHqXK_Hz79tjqRosK4tWYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDDL...ew-vl&list=PLwOAYhBuU3UeYFyfm2LilZldjJd48t6IY
 
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Michael

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Yes, I have no problem with the "sciences" (particle physics, plasma research, chemistry, biology). But I do not consider current cosmology to be a science. Their theories are currently falsified by every "science," yet they pretend voyager, THEMIS and IBEX didn't falsify their entire stellar and galactic models. And still they try to defend a falsified cosmology, instead of embracing the next paradigm we are close to entering into.

I agree of course, but then consider our position for a moment. In a very real way we're *defending* empirical physics (other branches of science) from being abused by a *small sector* of the scientific community. It's not as though we reject "science", we're actually trying to "fix" a very specific dogma problem in astronomy. Your earlier criticisms are valid and they certainly do apply to astronomy IMO, but less so to other branches of science. The information is pretty freely available in astronomy, but not much of the new information jives with their claims.

I do believe this is an exciting time in science, the shift of paradigms in our cosmological beliefs! I see no alternative, it's coming and if one looks carefully at the the articles by NASA, they will see even it slowly embracing PC/EU cosmology.

Considering the empirical facts from Planck and SDO, they have very little choice in the matter. :) I just have no idea how long they'll drag their feet. :)

The single most "uninviting" aspect of astronomy is that they refuse to embrace any valid falsification process as it relates to any of their claims, and they immediately label anyone who dissents as a "crackpot/crank/yada yada yada". It's that verbally abusive attitude and denial process that gets old after awhile. :(
 
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Split Rock

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I have not used the internet much to try to immerse myself in mathematics and science, and when I have it has been mostly sources such as Wikipedia that are not written intelligibly for the layperson. I do the same thing that I do with the social sciences, humanities, etc.: I browse through the books and periodicals almost everywhere I go that they are sold. The result has been reading a little bit of Scientific American and Discover here and there and finding one book that I wanted to try: the aforementioned book by Kenneth R. Miller (and I spent plenty of money on it--it was a hardback; I will invest the time and money if it means having a richer intellectual life). The latter was worth reading--I recommend it often--but it was almost entirely more of the same: the politics of scientific education, the technology arms race, etc.

There are probably psychological barriers: the book that I need is right in front of me but I have internalized the belief that math and science are exceptional disciplines for exceptional minds and I am too intimidated to notice that book.

I have some recommendations:

Your Inner Fish, Neil Shubin
Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body: Neil Shubin: 9780307277459: Amazon.com: Books

The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, Spencer Wells
The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey: Spencer Wells: 9780812971460: Amazon.com: Books
 
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Naraoia

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Elendur

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Oh, Wikipedia maths pages are deadly.
No kidding :| I have a hard time with many of them, and I've studied math for 3 years straight...
(Including some programming and some other related stuff)

Wikipedia cuts to the chase when it comes to math, since you're pretty much supposed to know it already. Else they'd fill it up fast.
 
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keith99

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There's a little bit of that same "he said, she said" process as it relates to various gravity theories in the realm of hard physics. Typically one is introduced to gravity theory from Newton's perspective. From there it typically moves on to Einstein and GR theory. Then of course there are QM concepts of gravity. Unfortunately the last two concepts typically require a pretty strong grasp calculus and advanced mathematics. Nobody however is likely to try to "teach all three" concepts of gravity at the same time (in the same class) due to the steep learning curve of each concept, and the math that goes with each theory is unique.

Hard core physics is 90 percent math at some point, and IMO that's the real "turn off" for most folks.

I have long forgotten much of my Physics.

But one of the last things to go will be remembering that first year physics started in the second quarter and it was not long until we were barely (and on occasion barely missing) getting to something in calculus before we needed to use it in Physics.

The one thing I may remember longer is something written on the door of a bathroom stall in the basement floor of the Physics/ math building:

And Maxwell said:

<insert Maxwells equations>

And there was Light.

Then Einstein said:

<Insert relativistic form of same equations>

And the darkness returned.

The relativistic form of the equations has symbols many people have never seen.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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I think that part of the problem is that the things in the natural sciences that interest me seem to have been deemphasized. In physics I am interested in things like optics and acoustics. In biology I am mostly interested in ecology (ecology as pure theory, not as a part of environmentalism). If you are not looking for cosmology, evolution, genetics, etc. then there does not seem to be much left.

Sorry in advance for the essay.

First of all, science builds on itself. Its like learning a musical instrument. You have to do the simple pieces before you can master the harder pieces of music. And learning a musical instrument takes an incredible amount of time to get good at and it also has an incredibly steep learning curve. Furthermore, you can't be a master of all the instruments simply because there isn't enough time in someone's life. You can be a master in one and dabble in others, but likely you'll never achieve the same level of mastery on multiple instruments. You also can't expect to take up classical guitar one day and be playing Pagannini's 24th caprice the next day.

The same with science. It builds on itself. Physics, biology, and chemistry are broad categories like woodwinds, strings and horns. Sub-disciplines like theoretical physics, ecology and organic chemistry act as specific instruments like flute, violin and trombone. All these "instruments" take a huge amount of time to learn and master and you can always learn more; there are always more pieces to learn and compositions to make. You also can't expect to pick up a new "instrument" with no prior knowledge and be able to thoroughly understand the subject.

Math is the sheet music that everyone is reading. Its a written language with a fully functional syntax. But math is a lot more complicated than sheet music with a much more complicated syntax. Learning to read the sheet music of science is part of becoming a master of your instrument. And you'll often come across a piece of music that has all sorts of funky new symbols that you've never encountered before and you need to get over that hurdle and figure it out in order to play the piece.

Like I said, someone who is a master at the trombone might be able to do a decent job at trumpet and someone who is an expert on the piano can dabble playing the guitar, but they are ultimately so specialized that you can't be a master of all of them at the same time.

The social sciences is more like the rhythm section. It still takes effort and skill to become a master, but if you can keep a decent beat then at least you can hit the snare drum or shake the shaker and make a decent contribution. Percussive instruments are generally harder to make sound bad. If you hand someone an African drum who has never played a drum before, they can probably make something resembling a rhythm. If you hand someone a violin that has never played a violin before, they can literally do nothing with it that resembles music. Furthermore, percussion doesn't rely quite as much on written music just as social sciences don't rely quite as much on math.

There are quite a few books written by scientists that make science easier to swallow. This is akin to a master pianist writing a simplified version of their piece that only contains one melody line using one hand rather than including both hands and all the underlying chords. In this case, both the scientist and the master pianist get the gist of their work accross, just without a lot of the richness, depth and complexity.

Einstein was a huge proponent of this simplification for the masses (i.e. simplification for all the non-musicians). He wrote his book entitled Relativity in which the first few chapters have almost no math and only discuss the conceptual ideas such that they are easily readable by any layperson. The later chapters delve into more complex math. The book is only about 100 pages too, making it a "relatively" easy read for the public (sorry...couldn't resist the pun).

If you're interested in acoustics and how they affect the brain, This is Your Brain On Music by Daniel Levitin is a great book.

Why Does E=Mc^2 by Brian Cox is a great and mind-bending look at the implications of relativity but dumbed down with almost no math at all.

Zero by Charles Seife is also an interesting read that gives some historical background to mathematics and the concept of zero.
The Golden Ratio by Mario Livio is also a cool book about math.

If you want more suggestions, PM me.
 
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Naraoia

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Sorry in advance for the essay.
No, it's quite beautiful. :)

Not entirely truthful, however, in that you don't actually have to know that much math to understand and contribute to many areas of biology. However, I think (theoretical) ecology, which LOVEthroughINTELLECT indicated an interest in, is one of the more mathsy areas.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Just to add a note here, while the social science may seem more inviting and easier to get involved in than the natural sciences, that's only at the most basic level.

Case in point, when people think of political science (my area of study), they think of the type of pundits you see on the news. What most people don't think of are the things that we actually do. We analyze pundits to see what their incentive structures look like, and we find that they're lacking because their utility is maximized by making unrealistic predictions. Instead of talking about how "stupid" Republicans are in Congress, we analyze the complex nested game that they play with other legislators, their own party, their constituents, and the executive branch. Instead of ranting about how terrorists hate us for our freedom, we study whether groups are motivated by existential constructs or by rational economic choice, and we argue with each other over how best to discern that from statistical data regarding per capita income, terrorist murder rates, and qualitative data coming from extremist mission statements.

In a lot of ways, there's more of a perception that the social sciences are easy, when they're really very hard and often involve more mathematical analysis than most individuals expect.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I agree of course, but then consider our position for a moment. In a very real way we're *defending* empirical physics (other branches of science) from being abused by a *small sector* of the scientific community. It's not as though we reject "science", we're actually trying to "fix" a very specific dogma problem in astronomy. Your earlier criticisms are valid and they certainly do apply to astronomy IMO, but less so to other branches of science. The information is pretty freely available in astronomy, but not much of the new information jives with their claims.



Considering the empirical facts from Planck and SDO, they have very little choice in the matter. :) I just have no idea how long they'll drag their feet. :)

The single most "uninviting" aspect of astronomy is that they refuse to embrace any valid falsification process as it relates to any of their claims, and they immediately label anyone who dissents as a "crackpot/crank/yada yada yada". It's that verbally abusive attitude and denial process that gets old after awhile. :(


Because that is all mainstream cosmology has, is Fairie Dust and abusive attacks against the person, as they are unable to defend thier theories. The data has contradicted every single Big Bang theory since th beginning of the space age.

They can not see because they turn their heads from the facts. Can not discuss magnetism without violating every known scientific fact about magnetic fields.

The sciences have nothing to do with current cosmology. Cosmology is a user of science, they do not innovate. They take what suits their theories from the sciences, then ignore all the rest.

They decided what the Sun was long before Plasma physics became established. Still use theories falsified 50+ years ago when the first probe was launched into space and measured electric currents. And what did they conclude from a universe filled with charged particles and electric currents? Why it was neutral of course. Sad, sad, sad.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Because that is all mainstream cosmology has, is Fairie Dust and abusive attacks against the person, as they are unable to defend thier theories. The data has contradicted every single Big Bang theory since th beginning of the space age.

They can not see because they turn their heads from the facts. Can not discuss magnetism without violating every known scientific fact about magnetic fields.

The sciences have nothing to do with current cosmology. Cosmology is a user of science, they do not innovate. They take what suits their theories from the sciences, then ignore all the rest.

They decided what the Sun was long before Plasma physics became established. Still use theories falsified 50+ years ago when the first probe was launched into space and measured electric currents. And what did they conclude from a universe filled with charged particles and electric currents? Why it was neutral of course. Sad, sad, sad.

Now I would normally warn Justa that he is breaking the Ninth Commandment, but unfortunately it seems that he cannot even learn the simplest of science. He finds it easier to follow a bunch of woo woo morons rather than to look at even the simplest of ideas that he should be able to understand.

What he calls "Faerie dust" are conclusions based upon observations. Unfortunately he has his own fairy dust. Since he does not understand the nature of plasma he ascribes to that state of matter magical capabilities.

Now it would not be so bad if he was actually curious. Actual physicists have explained to him where he is wrong, with fairly simple math. I don't think that anyone here can help him.

This is just a friendly warning about the sort of person that is on your side. With friends like Justa you do not need any enemies.
 
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corvus_corax

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You want to feel like you're contributing to the "talking about" the hard sciences?
Math is a language
Granted it's a language most people absolutely hate, but it is still the language of physics, cosmology, GR, QM, etc etc etc

On the other hand, one can read something like "A Brief History of Time" and understand basic concepts, and thereby communicate with other laypeople about these scientific theories, and that might, perhaps, contribute to the overall societal conversation and contribution.

Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding what you're asking about
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Now I would normally warn Justa that he is breaking the Ninth Commandment, but unfortunately it seems that he cannot even learn the simplest of science. He finds it easier to follow a bunch of woo woo morons rather than to look at even the simplest of ideas that he should be able to understand.

It seems to me the only way I can follow your brand of science is to ignore 99% of the universe. It is the only possible way to justify your Fairie Dust.

What he calls "Faerie dust" are conclusions based upon observations. Unfortunately he has his own fairy dust. Since he does not understand the nature of plasma he ascribes to that state of matter magical capabilities.

No, just hard scientific facts. Explain to me how magnetic fields are formed on the sun?


K&J Magnetics Blog


Please explain to me how this magnetic field is produced in a multimillion degree stream of plasma when your convection theory was found to be 99 orders of magnitude off? Come on science man, explain this to me. Don't tell me my theory is wrong, prove it. We know yours is wrong, your convection was 1% of what you required, you can't justify the magnetic fields now can you?

Now it would not be so bad if he was actually curious. Actual physicists have explained to him where he is wrong, with fairly simple math. I don't think that anyone here can help him.

No, they explained where you were wrong. Actual physics tells you plasma does not behave like solids, liquids or gasses, yet you still ignorantly treat it just like those you tell us it does not behave like. Just what is up with that kind of math? It is no wonder you require so much Fairie Dust in your theories.

Plasma (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The presence of a non-negligible number of charge carriers makes the plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. Plasma, therefore, has properties quite unlike those of solids, liquids, or gases and is considered a distinct state of matter."


Why do you ignore your own science to attempt to defend imaginary Fairie Dust?






This is just a friendly warning about the sort of person that is on your side. With friends like Justa you do not need any enemies.


Subduction will just continue to lie to you being he has not one shred of laboratory evidence to back up his theories. Where is your solar convection? Why didn't the solar wind veer sideways at the heliosphere as your theorist predicted? Why are all planetary nebula in the galaxy core aligned perpendicular to the plane of the galaxy? At complete opposition to your theory of how stars are formed.

Sad, sad, sad.
 
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