Who are the twelve apostles?

[trentlogain2]

Are there just twelve apostles or are there more?

Who are the original apostles? If Paul is number twelve then how do you explain Matthias who the disciples cast lots for in Acts? I've heard someone say that they did that out of the will of God and thus that being null and void. What are your thoughts?

 

[Baptist Christian 1611]

The original twelve disciples were Simone Peter,Andrew, James and John Zebedee, Matthew(Levi), Philip,Thomas(Didymus), James and Judas Alpheus, Bartholomew(Nathanael), Simon Zelotes, and Judas Iscariot. Now when Judas died, lots were cast and Matthias was replaced to be the 12th disciple. Now Paul was an apostle, but nowhere is he referred to as the 12th disciple. But he was an apotle because he had seen Jesus(road toDamascus). That was a necessary requirement for an apostle. That is why there are no longer apostles today.

 

[Vince53]

There were other Apostles as well. They are part of the foundation, and the foundation has been completed.

 

[mlqurgw]

That is one of the reasons that I do not hold to voting in church. Every time they took a vote in the Scriptures the result was wrong. Instead of waiting on God to fill the place of Judas they took it upon themselves to fill it by vote. The church is not a democracy were everyone gets a vote but a theocracy were Christ puts His pastors to lead and govern. The church is filled with unbelieving tares who are evil at heart and when they vote it always causes evil to come into the church.

Now as to the Apostles there seems to be more than twelve. I do believe that Paul was to take the place of Judas but others, such as Barnabas, seem to have had the office of Apostle as well.

 

[dies-l]

That is one of the reasons that I do not hold to voting in church. Every time they took a vote in the Scriptures the result was wrong. Instead of waiting on God to fill the place of Judas they took it upon themselves to fill it by vote. The church is not a democracy were everyone gets a vote but a theocracy were Christ puts His pastors to lead and govern. The church is filled with unbelieving tares who are evil at heart and when they vote it always causes evil to come into the church.

Now as to the Apostles there seems to be more than twelve. I do believe that Paul was to take the place of Judas but others, such as Barnabas, seem to have had the office of Apostle as well.

Why do you believe that the selection of Matthias was wrong?

 

[sealacamp]

That is one of the reasons that I do not hold to voting in church. Every time they took a vote in the Scriptures the result was wrong. Instead of waiting on God to fill the place of Judas they took it upon themselves to fill it by vote. The church is not a democracy were everyone gets a vote but a theocracy were Christ puts His pastors to lead and govern. The church is filled with unbelieving tares who are evil at heart and when they vote it always causes evil to come into the church.

Now as to the Apostles there seems to be more than twelve. I do believe that Paul was to take the place of Judas but others, such as Barnabas, seem to have had the office of Apostle as well.

Then explain the use of Urim and Thummim.

Sealacamp

 

[mlqurgw]

Why do you believe that the selection of Matthias was wrong?

Mainly because you never hear of him again. Also because, just as I said, they didn't wait on the Lord but took matters into their own hands.

 

[mlqurgw]

Then explain the use of Urim and Thummim.

Sealacamp

The Urim and Thummim were not a voting system but, nobody really knows what, something through which God made known His will to the High Preist. Some think they were stones and others something else.

John Gill :
First, I shall endeavour to give some account of the Urim and Thummim. The first mention that is made of them, is in Exodus 28:30. And than shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord; and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually. The words Urim and Thummim are by the Septuagint rendered a manifestation and truth; though they may be much better translated lights and perfections; as they are by Aquilla, in Leviticus 8:8 and are frequently applied, by divines, to that light of knowledge and integrity of life, which are requisite characters in every minister of Christ; butwhat these Urim and Thummim were, is not so easy a thing to determine: Some of the Jewish Rabbi have ingenuously confessed, that they knew not what they were, and some of our Christian interpreters have thought it safest to leave them as things unknown, and not conclude anything certainly about them; though the scripture seems to speak of them as things well known; and an inquiry into them is nowhere forbidden; therefore we shall attempt it at this time.
There has been a variety of opinions concerning them, which particularly to enumerate, and enter into the consideration of, would be both tedious, and to little purpose, one thinks that these two words, Urim and Thummim were engraven on a stone, or a plate of gold, and put into the breast-plate, even as those words, Holiness to the Lord, were engraven on a plate of gold, and fastened, by a blue lace, to the front of Aaron’s mitre. Another is of opinion (Calvin in Ex. 28:4), that they were two famous and remarkable characters in the breast-plate, which suited with those names: Others have supposed, that this was the writing of Shemhamphorash, that is, the name Jehovah (which the Jews say is unlawful to be pronounced but by the high-priest when he entered into the holy of Holies) which name, either by itself, or with other divine names, explanative of it, were put into, or engraven on the breast-plate; and this way go most of the Jewish doctors. Others have imagined, that they were little images, which the high priest carried about with him in the folds of the breast-plate, and as often as he inquired concerning anything, God, or an angel in the name of God, did by these, answer very clearly and distinctly, what was to be done, or not to be done; and that, because of the perspicuity and certain completion of the answers, the one was called Urim, and the other Thummim; and that, whilst the priest was inquiring, the images glistered and appeared very bright, to fix the people’s attention, and raise their admiration: they also imagine, that these images are the same with the Teraphim made mention of in many places of scripture with the ephod, but never in a good sense; for they were idols which the Jews, who were a people prone to idolatry, had learned to worship of the nations; and they seem to be household gods, such as the Lares or Penates among the Romans; wherefore it cannot be supposed that these were the Urim and Thummim which were put into the breast-plate, because it would have been directly contrary to the second commandment. Others have been of opinion, that these were a work purely divine, not made by Bezaleel or any other artificer, but by God himself, as the two tables of stone were, on which the law was engraven: and that God gave these to Moses, and he put them into the breast-plate; though of what form and matter they were they will no more pretend to tell, that they would of what stone the two tables were made.
But the opinion, which at present I am most inclined to come into, is, that the Urim and Thummim were no other than the twelve stones in the breast-plate, on which were engraven the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and that these were called Urim, because they were clear, lucid, and transparent;and Thummim, because they were perfect and complete, had no blemish or defect in them: what induces me to embrace and prefer this opinion to all others, is, because in Exodus 34,where there is a particular account given of all the priest’s vestments, and more especially of the breast-plate and the things appertaining thereunto, there is mention made of the twelve stones, but no notice taken of the Urim and Thummim: now if the Urim and Thummim had been anything different from the stones, Moses would not have omitted the mention of them, seeing he takes notice of things more minute than these: and as also, in Leviticus 8:8where is given the like account, mention is made of the Urim and Thummim, and no notice taken of the stones, which is a further confirmation of this opinion. Likewise, I find some of the most learned of the Jewish writers are of the same opinion, particularly Josephus, whose testimony must go a great way in this matter, seeing he lived while the second temple stood, was by sect a Pharisee, by profession a priest, and of the blood royal; and therefore no doubt, had all the opportunities and advantages of informing himself in these affairs.
Having thus considered what they were, let us now observe what was the use of them, which I apprehend to be twofold.
I. The names of the twelve tribes of Israel being engraven on them, they were borne on Aaron’s heart, when he went into the holy place on the day of atonement, for a memorial before the Lord, so that what Aaron then did, more especially, he did, not in his own name, but in the name of the whole congregation of Israel; he acted as their representative, when he slew the sacrifice, and carried the blood within the veil, for it was not only for himself, but for all the people.
II. By these, the high priest consulted God for the people in matters of moment; thus we read in Numbers 27:21, And he (that is, Joshua) shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord; at his word shall they go out, and at his word shall they come in, both he and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation. Consultation by Urim and Thummim was made by the priest only, but not without having on the Ephod, and generally before the ark of the covenant; not for private persons and for private affairs or for things trivial, but for public persons, and in matters of moment. And so we read, in the Misnah, They inquire by Urim and Thummim, but they do not inquire by these .for a private person, but for a king, and for the house of judgment, and for him whom the congregation needeth.
This was certainly a very great favor, which God indulged this people with, that they could thus have recourse unto him on emergent occasions; and it was an evidence of God’s displeasure to Saul, when he would not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by Prophets: How long those things continued in use, is not so well known. The Talmudists say", That king ,Josiah hid the Urim and Thummim under ground in a cave, before prepared by Solomon, together with the anointing oil, the ark of the covenant, Aaron’s rod, and the pot of Manna, and that these things could not be found when they returned from Babylon; therefore tell us that these five things were wanting in the second temple, namely, 1. The ark with the mercy-seat, and cherubims. 2. The fire from heaven which burnt up the sacrifice. 3. The Shechinah, orthe divine presence. 4. The holy Ghost, or Spirit of prophecy. 5. The Urim and Thummim. And in the Misnah they say, "After the death of the former prophets the Urim and Thummim ceased." Maimonides indeed says, that the Urim and Thummim were made in the second temple, though not used; his words are these, "They made in the second temple Urim and Thummim, to the end, they might make up all the eight ornaments, although they did not inquire by them:and wherefore did they not inquire by them? because the holy Ghost was not there." Josephus says, that the shining of these stones had ceased two hundred years before he wrote his Antiquities; and it is manifest from scripture, that the Jews were without them when they returned from Babylon, as appears from Ezra,(2:63) And the Tirshatha, that is, Nehemiah, said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim. This shews the deficiency and imperfection of the Levitical priesthood, and what need there was of another priest to arise with the true Urim and Thummim, not after Aaron’s order, but after the order of Melehizedek.
But now let us consider a little, in what way and manner God was pleased to return answers by Urim and Thummim.
The Jews generally say, it was by the extraordinary brightness and protuberance of some of the letters upon the stones, which swelling, and appearing higher and brighter than others, either altogether, or one after another, the priest could read the answer which should be returned: but there not being a complete alphabet in the names of the twelve tribes, they added the names of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob;and this not being sufficient, they added these words, Col Elle Shibte Israel, "All these are the tribes of Israel." Here being now a complete alphabet, they suppose an answer might be returned this way upon any affair that was consulted about.
Others, that the priests knew the mind and will of God, by the brightness or dullness of the stones; that if the stones were bright, the answer was in the affirmative; if dull, in the negative; and so they returned the answer to the people.
Others have been of opinion, that the priest, when he went and asked counsel of God, having on the breast-plate and the Urim and Thummim it, God was pleased to enlighten his understanding, and fix in his mind a firm persuasion of the truth of the answer intended, and accordingly he returned it.
But I am most inclined to think, that God gave the answer by a distinct and articulate voice; my reasons for it are, because in Numbers, when the priest asked counsel of God, it is said, at his word, or at his mouth, that is, of the Lord, Shall they go out, and at his word, or mouth, Shall they come in (Num. 27:21);and in all the instances we have of inquiry, being made by Urim and Thummim, the answers, as they appear to me, were given this way: Thus, after Joshua’s death, when the people of Israel inquired of the Lord, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites? The Lord said Judah shall go up (Judges 27:21);And when David ordered, Abiathar the priest to bring the Ephod to hint, and he inquired of the Lord, saying, Will Saul come down? And the Lord said he will come down: Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said they will deliver thee up (1 Sam. 23:11, 12).

 

[dies-l]

Mainly because you never hear of him again. Also because, just as I said, they didn't wait on the Lord but took matters into their own hands.

Really, the only apostles that we do read much about are John, James, Peter, Matthew, and Judas. So, I don't think we should read that much into the lack of references to Matthias.

 

[spiersdodgerblue]

Really, the only apostles that we do read much about are John, James, Peter, Matthew, and Judas. So, I don't think we should read that much into the lack of references to Matthias.

 

[mont974x4]

Mainly because you never hear of him again. Also because, just as I said, they didn't wait on the Lord but took matters into their own hands.

They let God choose through the casting of lots. This was a common and acceptable practice.
I would say since the Word is silent about him that the choice was good (made by God no less) and he did nothing to warrant getting blasted for it.

I do understand your concern, I just wanted to share an opposing view.

 

[Allen1901]

I've noticed that Jesus picked the 12 Disciples after watching them at work.

God Bless!