where did the idea that God was an old man in heaven was a city in the clouds come from?

[xpower]

Where did the idea that God was an old man in the clouds and heaven was a city to floats in the clouds come from?

As there are some people who have a very anthropomorphic view of God and literally think God is some kind of old man with a beard. Or think that heaven is literally some kind of Golden City in the sky.

I always thought God was an infinite disembodied mind(spirit), not a physical creature or even really a man or woman, and heaven was more of a state of being after the resurrection.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Heh, true. Probably stuff like Mark 16:19 where Jesus goes up into heaven and sits down beside God. Conjures up images of literally moving upwards into the sky and sitting down in the clouds beside Father God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where did the idea that God was an old man in the clouds and heaven was a city to floats in the clouds come from?

Pagan Greeks and Persians and Babylon mythology.
A lot came from mythology and it is sometimes UNlearning this that is the hardest part of life when it is required,
since we (everyone all over the world) may be brought up being taught mythology without anyone knowing it or admitting it.

 

[ewq1938]

Where did the idea that God was an old man in the clouds and heaven was a city to floats in the clouds come from?

Old man

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This and that scripture often speaks of heaven and clouds seems to be behind why heaven is thought to be a city in the clouds not to mention there is also a temple in heaven.

 

[mmksparbud]

It's a lot of detail for a nonexistent city that is only a state of being.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

 

[Philip_B]

God made man in his own image and man returned the compliment​

This is attributed to a wide range of people in various forms. It amounts to an anthropomorphic view of the divine. As an Anglican one wonders why it is as common as it is in view of Articles 1.

I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.​

Perhaps we have tried to dumb down to message to often. Certainly anthropomorphic views of God make an artists job easier, however that does not make it good theology.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It's a lot of detail for a nonexistent city that is only a state of being.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Yeah but the book of Revelation begins with "the revelation of Jesus Christ" and because it is a vision/revelation/experience much of what is written may not necessarily be literal. However I agree people read this stuff literally oftentimes.

 

[mmksparbud]

It was a vision of a very real city.

 

[Radrook]

Where did the idea that God was an old man in the clouds and heaven was a city to floats in the clouds come from?

As there are some people who have a very anthropomorphic view of God and literally think God is some kind of old man with a beard. Or think that heaven is literally some kind of Golden City in the sky.

I always thought God was an infinite disembodied mind(spirit), not a physical creature or even really a man or woman, and heaven was more of a state of being after the resurrection.

That assumes that the Hebrews and Christians reading those verses always understood them as literally as you do.

Numbers 23:19 ►

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

John 4:24 ►
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

1 Timothy 6:16
He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen


----------------------

About the city of New Jerusalem, which you think represents heaven. It does NOT. It represents the Christian Church composed of its members.


Revelation 19:7-9 ESV /

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

Revelation Chapter 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:2 ESV /
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So we see that this city is the Bride of Christ.

Who indeed is the Bride of Christ?

The Bride of Christ is his church.

How do we know?

We know because of this:



Corinthians 11:2 ESV

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 5:25 ESV /

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Ephesians 5:22-33New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.


So the book of Revelation uses the city described there as a symbol of the Church and not as a literal city.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It was a vision of a very real city.

Perhaps. Depends on definition of "real". John says he was in the Spirit (Rev 1:10). Then he saw things, probably in vision as you say. Visions are often symbolic with much meaning, much like dreams really. Taking the book of Revelation 100% literal is a little simplistic don't you think?

 

[ewq1938]

Perhaps. Depends on definition of "real". John says he was in the Spirit (Rev 1:10). Then he saw things, probably in vision as you say. Visions are often symbolic with much meaning, much like dreams really. Taking the book of Revelation 100% literal is a little simplistic don't you think?

As silly as taking it 100 percent symbolic.

The book is very literal at times, very symbolic other times. The city is literal. Rev 21 details it very well.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

As silly as taking it 100 percent symbolic.

The book is very literal at times, very symbolic other times. The city is literal. Rev 21 details it very well.

Literally in the spirit eh... So in the spirit, shown a literal thing... From my experience the realm of the spirit is very different

 

[ewq1938]

Literally in the spirit eh... So in the spirit, shown a literal thing... From my experience the realm of the spirit is very different

Being "in the spirit" does not affect the ability to see literal things.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Being "in the spirit" does not affect the ability to see literal things.

Fair enough.

 

[ewq1938]

Fair enough.

Take the two prophets being killed and laying in the streets of Jerusalem and then 3.5 days later resurrecting from the dead. I see that as literal.

Then there is the 7 headed beast with ten horns which is explained in Rev 17 so we know it's a symbolic beast.

 

[mmksparbud]

Perhaps. Depends on definition of "real". John says he was in the Spirit (Rev 1:10). Then he saw things, probably in vision as you say. Visions are often symbolic with much meaning, much like dreams really. Taking the book of Revelation 100% literal is a little simplistic don't you think?

Thinking that the city is not real is more than simplistic, it is quite silly as it rejects what Jesus Himself said--
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.