The “Old Greek” of Daniel 7:13

[DavidPT]

in the OT, God descended from heaven and rode on the clouds in a “visible manner” during times of judgment (2 Samuel 22, Isaiah 19, etc….).

So If the Olivet discourse in Matthew is alluding to the OG Daniel 7:13, where the son of man comes on the clouds “as” the ancient of days, why should it be understood differently than when God rode clouds in the OT, especially considering the OD states “this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place”?

No matter how you look at though, Matthew 24:30 indeed involves coming in judgment. If it's involving 70 AD, though I disagree that it is, obviously that involved judgment. If Matthew 24:30 is meaning in the end of this age when Christ bodily returns, obviously that too would be involving coming in judgment the fact there is Revelation 19 to factor in, where a lot of us take that to be involving His bodily return in the end of this age. Therefore, I do not disagree that Matthew 24:30 involves coming in judgment. I just don't agree that it is pertaining to a coming involving 70 AD.

 

[claninja]

I tend to think verse 13 and 14 explain how Christ initially acquired His role as judge in the future, verses 9-12 in this case. Verse 13 and 14 pertain to His ascension 2000 years ago following His death and resurrection at the time. Verses 9-12 are meaning when He bodily returns in the end of this age, yet is not meaning Revelation 20:11-15 like some tend to take it to be involving.

There is no other passage in the OT, that I’m aware of, that has the phrase “son of man coming on the clouds” besides Daniel 7:13.

That being said -

If the original meaning of Daniel 7:13 of the son of man coming on the clouds should be understood as Christ ascending “to” the ancient of days, Then consistently - Matthew 24:30 should be understood as the son of man coming on the clouds “to” the ancient of days.

If the original meaning of Daniel 7:13 of the son of man coming on the clouds should be understood as Christ coming on the clouds “like” the ancient of days, then, consistently, Matthew 24:30 should be understood as Christ coming on the clouds “like” the ancient of days.


Matthew 24:30 They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Matthew 16:28 28Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming “with” (en) his kingdom (or royal power).”

“En”
of that which one either leads or brings with him, or with which he is furnished or equipped; especially after verbs of coming (ἐν of accompaniment), where we often say with: ἐν δέκα χιλιάσιν ὑπανταν, Luke 14:31; ἦλθεν ἐν μυριάσι, Jude 1:14; cf. Grimm on 1 Macc. 1:17; ἐισέρχεσθαι ἐναἵματι, Hebrews 9:25; ἐν τῷ ὕδατι καί ἐντῷ αἵματι, 1 John 5:6 (i. e. with the water of baptism and the blood of atonement, by means of both which he has procured the pardon of our sins, of which fact we are assured by the testimony of the Holy Spirit); ἐν ῤάβδῳ, 1 Corinthians 4:21; ἐνπληρώματι εὐλογίας, Romans 15:29; φθάνειν ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ, 2 Corinthians 10:14; ἐν πνεύματι καί δυνάμει ἥλιον, imbued or furnished with the spirit and power of Elijah, Luke 1:17; ἐν τῇ βασιλείααὐτοῦ, furnished with the regal power of the Messiah, possessed of his kingly power (Buttmann, 330 (284)): Matthew 16:28; (Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with)

Simply put, Daniel 7:13-14 refers to Christ coming on the clouds with His kingdom/royal power and in the glory of the Father.

So what meaning makes more sense - “to” the ancient of days or “like” the ancient of days based on the NT usage of it?

 

[claninja]

No matter how you look at though, Matthew 24:30 indeed involves coming in judgment. If it's involving 70 AD, though I disagree that it is, obviously that involved judgment. If Matthew 24:30 is meaning in the end of this age when Christ bodily returns, obviously that too would be involving coming in judgment the fact there is Revelation 19 to factor in, where a lot of us take that to be involving His bodily return in the end of this age. Therefore, I do not disagree that Matthew 24:30 involves coming in judgment. I just don't agree that it is pertaining to a coming involving 70 AD.

I absolutely agree that Christ did not come “bodily” in 70ad. But I believe Christ did come on clouds to judge Jerusalem, like the ancient of days had descended from heaven and come on the clouds to judge nations in the past:

Nahum 1:3
3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Isaiah 19:1
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloudand comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Psalm 18:9-11
He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
10He rode on a cherub and flew;
he came swiftly on the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him,
thick clouds dark with water.

And Since Paul believed he was living at the ends of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11), and James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand (James 5:8-9), and John believed it was the last hour (1 John 2:18-19), and Peter believed the end of all things was at hand (1 Peter 4:7), and the author of Hebrews believed Christ would come in a little while without delay (Hebrews 10:37)….so I would also disagree with your position as Christ said that the coming of the son of man on The clouds would occur within their generation (Matthew 24:30) and that some would not taste death until the son of man comes with his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

 

[DavidPT]

I absolutely agree that Christ did not come “bodily” in 70ad. But I believe Christ did come on clouds to judge Jerusalem, like the ancient of days had descended from heaven and come on the clouds to judge nations in the past:

Nahum 1:3
3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Isaiah 19:1
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloudand comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Psalm 18:9-11
He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
10He rode on a cherub and flew;
he came swiftly on the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him,
thick clouds dark with water.

And Since Paul believed he was living at the ends of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11), and James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand (James 5:8-9), and John believed it was the last hour (1 John 2:18-19), and Peter believed the end of all things was at hand (1 Peter 4:7), and the author of Hebrews believed Christ would come in a little while without delay (Hebrews 10:37)….so I would also disagree with your position as Christ said that the coming of the son of man on The clouds would occur within their generation (Matthew 24:30) and that some would not taste death until the son of man comes with his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

It's already obvious to me though I disagree with your interpretation of Matthew 24:30, that you don't take that coming to be involving a bodily coming. Hopefully it is obvious to everyone else as well. Actually that verse does not say it's a bodily coming or that it's not a bodily coming. But even so it is still fairly easy for some of us to conclude that a bodily coming is meant.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The first clue is this---and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see. 'See' in this verse is optanomai rather than eido, where the latter typically involves the perceiving of something, and that the former oftentimes involves literally seeing something with the naked eye.

what is recorded in Matthew 24:30 is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

To think this might be involving 70 AD is not reasonable. 'See' in this verse is also optanomai rather than eido. And this verse goes on to say every eye, not some eyes as in not all eyes, but every eye as in all eyes, shall see Him. One might argue that Matthew 24:30 informs us which eyes every eye is pertaining to, that it is only pertaining to all the tribes of the earth rather than literally every eye of every single person that has lived since the beginning of time.

To be fair that might be a valid argument since Matthew 24:30 is informing us that all the tribes of the earth shall see Him, rather than telling us that dead people good and bad shall also see Him coming. Of course though, there is verse 31 to consider. That seems to be involving dead people, but not bad dead people, good dead people. Which BTW, this argument actually helps Premil.

In order to see(optanomai) Christ coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, it has to be involving witnessing a bodily coming, otherwise you would think He would have used eido rather than optanomai if a coming in another sense was meant.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

As to Matthew 26:64, for instance, since 'see' in that verse is also optanomai, one way to make sense out of that verse is like such. When He initially said that He was in their court being judged and sentenced by them. Yet one day in the future the tables will be turned. They will be in His court being judged and sentenced by Him. And that's what makes the most sense to me per this verse.

Maybe it makes no sense to you since you oftentimes tend to interpret things in a vacuum, so to speak, but since I don't tend to interpret things in a vacuum, it makes perfect sense to me. After all, it's not like, those at the time of Jesus having said that, that they will never have to appear in His court someday. And when they do appear in His court someday in the future, they are obviously literally going to see Him sitting on the right hand of power.

It would be ludicrous to argue that when they appear in His court in the future, that they don't literally see Him sitting on the right hand of power at the time. How can He not be sitting on the right hand of power at the time? Of course He will still be sitting on the right hand of power since He will be performing the judging and sentencing rather than the Father doing that. So, maybe when Revelation 1:7 says every eye shall see Him coming with the clouds, it is also including those who were judging and sentencing Him at the time. Which BTW might mean Premil is not a valid position after all.

 

[claninja]

It's already obvious to me though I disagree with your interpretation of Matthew 24:30, that you don't take that coming to be involving a bodily coming. Hopefully it is obvious to everyone else as well. Actually that verse does not say it's a bodily coming or that it's not a bodily coming. But even so it is still fairly easy for some of us to conclude that a bodily coming is meant.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The first clue is this---and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see. 'See' in this verse is optanomai rather than eido, where the latter typically involves the perceiving of something, and that the former oftentimes involves literally seeing something with the naked eye.

what is recorded in Matthew 24:30 is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

To think this might be involving 70 AD is not reasonable. 'See' in this verse is also optanomai rather than eido. And this verse goes on to say every eye, not some eyes as in not all eyes, but every eye as in all eyes, shall see Him. One might argue that Matthew 24:30 informs us which eyes every eye is pertaining to, that it is only pertaining to all the tribes of the earth rather than literally every eye of every single person that has lived since the beginning of time.

To be fair that might be a valid argument since Matthew 24:30 is informing us that all the tribes of the earth shall see Him, rather than telling us that dead people good and bad shall also see Him coming. Of course though, there is verse 31 to consider. That seems to be involving dead people, but not bad dead people, good dead people. Which BTW, this argument actually helps Premil.

In order to see(optanomai) Christ coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, it has to be involving witnessing a bodily coming, otherwise you would think He would have used eido rather than optanomai if a coming in another sense was meant.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

As to Matthew 26:64, for instance, since 'see' in that verse is also optanomai, one way to make sense out of that verse is like such. When He initially said that He was in their court being judged and sentenced by them. Yet one day in the future the tables will be turned. They will be in His court being judged and sentenced by Him. And that's what makes the most sense to me per this verse.

Maybe it makes no sense to you since you oftentimes tend to interpret things in a vacuum, so to speak, but since I don't tend to interpret things in a vacuum, it makes perfect sense to me. After all, it's not like, those at the time of Jesus having said that, that they will never have to appear in His court someday. And when they do appear in His court someday in the future, they are obviously literally going to see Him sitting on the right hand of power.

It would be ludicrous to argue that when they appear in His court in the future, that they don't literally see Him sitting on the right hand of power at the time. How can He not be sitting on the right hand of power at the time? Of course He will still be sitting on the right hand of power since He will be performing the judging and sentencing rather than the Father doing that. So, maybe when Revelation 1:7 says every eye shall see Him coming with the clouds, it is also including those who were judging and sentencing Him at the time. Which BTW might mean Premil is not a valid position after all.

Matthew 24:30, should not be read in a vacuum as if it’s its own brand new information. Instead, The reader should notice that Christ, in Matthew 24:30, is alluding to OT passages - Zechariah 12:11-14 and Daniel 7:13.

“all” tribes of the land should be understood in context of what Jesus is quoting - the tribes of Israel wailing in Zechariah 12

The son of man coming on clouds should be understood in the context of its OT reference in Daniel 7:13 - coming “to” (TH or MT) or “like” (OG) the ancient of days.

If Christ is coming on the clouds “to” the ancient of days, well, those wailing wouldn't literally see.

If Christ is coming on the clouds “like” the ancient of days did in the OT (psalm 18, Isaiah 19, Nahum 1, etc…) then those wailing wouldnt literally see it, but instead would metaphorically “seeing” or experiencing it in the destruction of Jerusalem, in the same God came down from heaven on the clouds and destroyed David’s enemies, Egypt, Nineveh, etc…..Unless is it your position that the figure of God was literally visible on top of clouds when he defeated Davids enemies (psalm 118), went to judge Egypt (Isaiah 19), or went to judge Nineveh (Nahum 1)?

 

[grafted branch]

what is recorded in Matthew 24:30 is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

To think this might be involving 70 AD is not reasonable. 'See' in this verse is also optanomai rather than eido. And this verse goes on to say every eye, not some eyes as in not all eyes, but every eye as in all eyes, shall see Him. One might argue that Matthew 24:30 informs us which eyes every eye is pertaining to, that it is only pertaining to all the tribes of the earth rather than literally every eye of every single person that has lived since the beginning of time.

I would think Premil also has to interpret every eye seeing Him as not being literal in some kind of way.

Obviously those who physically pierced Him are now physically dead. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Wouldn’t a strictly literal interpretation of Revelation 1:7 mean that it takes place after the millennium?

Of course though, there is verse 31 to consider. That seems to be involving dead people, but not bad dead people, good dead people. Which BTW, this argument actually helps Premil.

Can you explain how that would help the Premil position? Are you thinking those that pierced Him represent the elect in Matthew 24:31?

 

[DavidPT]

Can you explain how that would help the Premil position? Are you thinking those that pierced Him represent the elect in Matthew 24:31?

Since Premil tends to see a resurrection event at the beginning of the thousand years, a second and final resurrection event after the thousand years, the former involving the good, the latter involving the bad, in that case if every eye shall see Him is not literally meaning every eye, this then means Premil is a possible valid interpretation. But if every eye is meant how can Premil still be a valid interpretation since this would have to mean everyone that has ever lived, both good and bad, would be raised during His coming in the clouds if every eye literally means every eye, and that every eye sees Him coming in the clouds.

But maybe there is another way that can be understood and still mean every eye yet not contradict Premil? It could simply mean when they are raised back to life, that is when they will see Him. IOW, when He comes in the clouds, those still alive at the time shall obviously see Him, those who have part in the first resurrection shall obviously see Him. Everyone else who have part in the 2nd resurrection after the thousand years, they don't see Him until then. This of course has some problems since some of those still alive at the time will be among the lost, thus they already see Him before they are even raised back to life after the thousand years. Keeping in mind per this scenario, Revelation 19:21.

 

[grafted branch]

Since Premil tends to see a resurrection event at the beginning of the thousand years, a second and final resurrection event after the thousand years, the former involving the good, the latter involving the bad, in that case if every eye shall see Him is not literally meaning every eye, this then means Premil is a possible valid interpretation. But if every eye is meant how can Premil still be a valid interpretation since this would have to mean everyone that has ever lived, both good and bad, would be raised during His coming in the clouds if every eye literally means every eye, and that every eye sees Him coming in the clouds.

But maybe there is another way that can be understood and still mean every eye yet not contradict Premil? It could simply mean when they are raised back to life, that is when they will see Him. IOW, when He comes in the clouds, those still alive at the time shall obviously see Him, those who have part in the first resurrection shall obviously see Him. Everyone else who have part in the 2nd resurrection after the thousand years, they don't see Him until then. This of course has some problems since some of those still alive at the time will be among the lost, thus they already see Him before they are even raised back to life after the thousand years. Keeping in mind per this scenario, Revelation 19:21.

Ok, thanks for that explanation. I guess maybe only Amil would tend to take Revelation 1:7 in a literal way.

 

[DavidPT]

Ok, thanks for that explanation. I guess maybe only Amil would tend to take Revelation 1:7 in a literal way.

From what I can tell, pretty much anyone who is not a Premil is an Amil, except for maybe full Preterists and Post Millers. I would then say that not all Amils are in agreement about that. Depending on how one interprets the OD overall has a lot to do with how that same person might interpret Revelation 1:7, meaning in regard to Amils. Amils that interpret Matthew 24:30, for example, to be involving 70 AD are likely not going to take every eye to literally be meaning every eye, while Amils that interpret Matthew 24:30 to be involving His bodily return in the end of this age are likely going to take every eye to literally mean every eye.