Where did the idea for pastor dominated congregations come from?

[zelosravioli]

I will say as a talking point, that there does need to be someone to lead the flock in teaching, don't you guys think?
Of course, and I agree with you, but i would add, it is not 'someone', as in ONE. Most, and many of us should be teachers by now! Yet that's the problem, not many seem to be able to, or at least not know they are able to teach.

Sermons don't create teachers. A good teacher communicates with people/students/disciples. He models teaching, a disciple should be learning to teach. You don't learn to teach by sitting quiet, you learn by doing. It is two way. That's why I am protesting this notion that sermons teach us how to be teachers /disciples.

When I teach, my goal is to have the students learn to form, ask, and answer questions. Often I have them lead the discussions while I listen from the side, that is how they learn, by doing. I have said here before, when the bible study group is studying, sharing, communicating 'with one another' about Gods Word, and learning on their own, my work is done. There are hundreds of good study series' in print, pick one up and start. Remember preaching and teaching are two different words, remember the church was originally made up of 'disciples' and people becoming disciples. Since then we have simply people sitting in rows, many have little knowledge or concern for what they believe, or why, historically speaking of Christianity.

Unfortunately 'many' small group 'leaders' don't get this, and just act like little preachers and lecture in their own group, dominating the discussions. So many just want to dispense 'their' great wisdom on everyone, rather than 'engaging' students 'friends' and others in conversation and study.

 

[Biblicist]

. . . Unfortunately 'many' small group 'leaders' don't get this, and just act like little preachers and lecture in their own group, dominating the discussions. So many just want to dispense 'their' great wisdom on everyone, rather than 'engaging' students 'friends' and others in conversation and study.

In our current day where we have so many wonderful electronic communication and training aids, this can make it hard for the average church communicator to get their message across as many seem to have little idea as to how they can effectively utilise the range of aids that are now available. Then there's the additional problem that it can be hard to employ these aids within some smaller churches due to expense or even that they lack the people who can train staff with how they can best incorporate these new technologies.

 

[zelosravioli]

You were on the freeway of enlightenment and then drove right into a cave. I obviously love the internet and Christian electronic study material, electronic technology, I am an electrician in Silicon Valley, etc. I am researching the idea of doing my own video interactive teaching series, but that said: electronic christian tools are the antithesis of actual Christian community, in fact 'church' buildings should be the last place you find Christian video/audio aids.

That's fine during down time at home, or on headphones while we are driving, or at work or something, when you want to research or hear teaching when we have no other comparable Christian interaction available. Electronic media is very addictive, and decomposes our natural abilities to communicate and socialize. We should actually be trying to spend less time in front of electronics, not more. Especially the Christian. The christian community is following societies inward spiral downward when we move towards electronic/video teaching over human interaction when they meet together (or 'rather than' meeting together). Check out the following churches having videos, why go to church to watch TV??

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1631880890419313

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1632141237059945

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1632149303725805

 

[zelosravioli]

On the other hand, the video during church service has exposed the church ritual for what it truly is; A spectator production, a TV show, for entertainment, and now church goers can simply watch it at home, and that is what they are doing, staying home. The goal of the gospel is that you be One together, love, fellowship, get to know one another. We can study, teach and develop relationships at the same time, that is THE WAY relationships happen, when we talk and have conversation

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Seriously, I have no idea and would like to be informed on it.

Matthew 23
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no manyour father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.


John 6
41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, Ever‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’yone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48“I am the bread of life. 49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”



And there are others, of course, but that is the gist of it.

Churches and church hierarchies are NOT of the Creator.

And note what Messiah says, it is the FATHER who sends you to the Messiah.
You bring no one to jesus.

 

[Hillsage]

Ideally each reasonably sized congregation should have a few competent teachers as most senior 'pastors' often seem to be less capable of providing solid teaching.

Unfortunately, I've heard a lot of preacher/pastors provide very "solid teaching"...might even say 'concrete teaching'....all mixed up and 'hard' to change.

I think one problem is that there is really only one true 'the pastor' over 'the' flock, and that pastor/shepherd is Jesus. What too many leaders in "pastor" roles today just don't seem to realize that they too are 'a' sheep. They just happen to be 'a' sheep with a bell/authority around their neck. And as 'a' shepherd, their true job is to make sure that they are following 'the' shepherd and then those who are immature lambs can follow/learn...be discipled...until they too don't just 'hear the voice' of The Shepherd, but actually understand it better for themselves.

When Paul left places scripture never says he 'appointed shepherds or pastors', it says "he appointed elders".

 

[ToBeLoved]

So can anyone really show or tell us how they feel church leadership should be. And explain each of the positions of leadership in modern language. Like what are examples of what each of them would oversee (if any), types of responsibilities, ect.

 

[zelosravioli]

Here's the model, let the people talk.

I tried to post photos of two books on the Theology of Church Leadership (note Richards/Hoeldtke) but it didn't work. Many Theological books on Ecclesia explain and argue for what should be servant leadership, but that is seldom the story in our institutions.

The institutional 'leadership' was put into practice by Roman ideology. It was supported by some writings of our own church 'fathers', who suspiciously became 'leaders' themselves (establishing their own office, to speak). It took away the horizontal structure of a servant who 'guides' through wisdom and models what is right, and turned it into a office of 'dictating' in the sense put into practice by Roman ideology, and it took away the horizontal structure of a servant leader and 'equal' who guides through wisdom and 'models' what is right 'by example' and the 'healthy' gifts of the Spirit, and turned it into a office of dictating and lording over others, in the sense that secular and pagan Rome was accustomed to.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The institutional 'leadership' was put into practice by Roman ideology. It was supported by some writings of our own church 'fathers', who suspiciously became 'leaders' themselves (establishing their own office, to speak). It took away the horizontal structure of a servant who 'guides' through wisdom and models what is right, and turned it into a office of 'dictating' in the sense put into practice by Roman ideology, and it took away the horizontal structure of a servant leader and 'equal' who guides through wisdom and 'models' what is right 'by example' and the 'healthy' gifts of the Spirit, and turned it into a office of dictating and lording over others, in the sense that secular and pagan Rome was accustomed to.

It's not always like that in every church. My pastor is very, very good and is very humble. Loves God's Word and knows that he is acting as a shepherd to the Lord's flock. Not a dominator and definatly not full of himself.

 

[Hillsage]

So can anyone really show or tell us how they feel church leadership should be. And explain each of the positions of leadership in modern language. Like what are examples of what each of them would oversee (if any), types of responsibilities, ect.

"Can anyone"???? Oh my yes, lots of people 'can tell and show how THEY feel it should be'. Question is, how's that been working?

Reminds me of a story I heard. "Two pastors ran into one another and the first one said; Hey, I hear you've been pastor of a new church for a while now, how's that going? The second pastor says; It's been going GREAT!!! It's dying a LOT slower than my last church."

 

[Hillsage]

It's not always like that in every church. My pastor is very, very good and is very humble. Loves God's Word and knows that he is acting as a shepherd to the Lord's flock. Not a dominator and definatly not full of himself.

Sounds like you have a 'very good' one then. My advice is 'pay him well'.

1TI 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of 'double honor', especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

Honor is a word which we get 'honorarium' from. And in the context of this scripture above, I don't think it means to 'shake his hand twice as long'.

 

[zelosravioli]

So what does pastor 'dominated' mean? This is when some person walks into a meeting and everyone believes he/she has a 'special' authority from God, and others believe it. They believe that the pastoral/priest role holds such a special position, that they hold the key to the scriptures, and most everyone else is an spectator. It brings with it the fallacy of clergy/laity. Scriptures revealed to us that a shepherd should 'protect' the flock 'from' those who want to lord over us. And protect the flock from those who make/allow themselves to be the center of attention. True pastors would be on the lookout for those who enjoy admiration and take positions of attention for themselves. Pastors should remind one another that we are not to 'follow' anyone but the Word Himself. No one is infallible. The whole church service PROMOTES the fallacy that only a select few can minister to all of the others at meetings, and especially on Sunday. That should be guarded against, not promoted. We have but One Lord and Father of us all.

 

[zelosravioli]

I will respond to the post below, If you read back from the beginning of the thread there are many references to the original church and meetings of believers.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I see that everyone is going to use this as a complaining thread with no real talk of what it would take to change things.

My church is fairly small, we have the pastor and two deacons under him that together they are accountable to God.

So I'll leave you guys to talk this out in whatever manner you like.

 

[zelosravioli]

Many previous posts have noted: All you need to do is have your 'pastors' (plural) actually sit with the congregation and minister with them, not at them.

1. Put down the microphones and join in discussions.
2. Turn your chairs around and talk with one another.
3. Set up round tables and open a bible together.

From post #100:
"The only thing necessary is to set up tables in the large rooms (and get rid of the pews). The bigger the room the bigger the fellowships. We often do this during the week, or during 'special' events, wouldn't it make sense to do it on Sunday, the day the church generally meets together?

We do this in many fellowship/study groups during the week, this is the best model of a service, not the Extra-curricular activity! This is not new, it is what the Church did before Rome and institutions. Do this and watch the relationships and community improve like friends and disciples should! True shepherds keep the sheep feeding in good pastures (sheep shouldn't be sitting in rows of chairs just watching the shepherd talk every Sunday, they should be reading, teaching and praying with each other on Sunday).

(Again, have speakers, but not the same one. Limit all lecturing to something like 5-15 minutes. Encourage discussion at every level, because lecturing is the antithesis of discipleship, love, fellowship and community. Please before the audience shrinks even more)

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

God will destroy the 'church' before the second coming of Messiah.

Read Ezekiel 8 and 9.
God starts with the 'church'.

 

[Biblicist]

So can anyone really show or tell us how they feel church leadership should be. And explain each of the positions of leadership in modern language. Like what are examples of what each of them would oversee (if any), types of responsibilities, ect.

As for the character of those who are to be placed in any form of leadership, then this is of course covered thoroughl in First Timothy.

As for the leadership of each local congregation, the Scriptures only speak of the Elders as being in charge with the support of the non-governing Deacons.

When it comes to ministry, this was covered superbly by Paul in 1Cor 28 where he says that "God has placed in the Church . . ." the following 8 Congregational Offices;

1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Teachers
4. Deeds of Powers (aka, miracles)
5. Healings
6. Guidance
7. Administration
8. Tongues

Even though these 8 Offices are to to be spread right across each local assembly, we should be expecting (yeah...sure) that the Elders would be representative of these 8 Offices. There we go . . . easy as pie!

 

[zelosravioli]

Where does the pastor dominated church originate? With Ignatius:

(I would note that this letter is contested, and I believe fabricated simply to promote the Bishop/presbytery and hierarchy of roman rule. This is a complete plagiarism of Paul, simply written with the intent to propagate the heresy of the ruling bishops/priests, or even Ignatius himself. All his epistles are highly self-congratulatory, of his own office. Joseph Smith has written a less obvious plagiarism and self-endorsement: The Book of Mormon, if you believe Ignatius you may as well believe Joseph.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
Chapter 1:4-5 ... I received, therefore, your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and your bishop in the flesh, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. And blessed be He who has granted unto you, being worthy, to obtain such an excellent bishop. (4-5)

As to my fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I beg that he may continue longer, both for your honour and that of your bishop. And Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom I have received as the manifestation of your love, hath in all things refreshed me, as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ shall also refresh him; together with Onesimus, and Burrhus, and Euplus, and Fronto, by means of whom, I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing," and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified. (1:6-9)

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for the name [of Christ], I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as fellow-disciples with me. For it was needful for me to have been stirred up by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would all run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the[manifested] will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds[of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ. (1:10-12, all verses vary and dependent on translation)

Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, ye may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus ye may always enjoy communion with God. (1:13-17 approx.)

For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop--I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature--how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, "God resisteth the proud." Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God. (2:1-3 approx.)

Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth. (continuing chap 2:4-5, or even 4 depending on the translator)

There are 7 other highly manipulative (by using extreme plagiarism of Paul) and of questionable sincerity and authenticity, Ignatius epistles along with other 'Fathers' used to promote this same thing (i.e. Clement). If you believe 'Ignatius' isn't a complete sham, and to be trusted over Christ, go for it, I choose Christ.

 

[hislegacy]

Has anyone ever taken the time to read the Book of Acts?

How do you miss that the FIRST church met in the Temple daily and when they were too large they met on Solomon's Porch? They were sitting under one voice.

Acts Demonstrates that Peter was the final Authority in the Jerusalem church.

Paul preached in Ephesis:

Not exactly a home cell group. And yes, he preached there for two years.

Timothy is called Bishop - he was over the churches in Asia. History shows his appointing, Elders, and Pastors over the churches.

With the huge amount of proof showing the church is a Pastor LEAD, and the examples of that leadership all the way to Hippoclytes, how on earth does anyone say it was other wise.

Now take those plain facts and look at the churches that are growing and reaching the world today. Are any of them home cell groups?

 

[zelosravioli]

Seriously, you are comparing Paul with - who??

You know that Paul also wrote letters, we have them still, most everyone has a bible now, and have for quite a few years now. If we still had some other Prophets and Apostles living still, I might go hear them myself, but even the Prophets and Apostles don't demand that we must forsake our Sunday fellowship, communion, participation, and prayers together 'for a sermon'.

And still, where does it say Paul went to that arena to preach on 'Sunday' mornings? I would bet that the other disciples and Paul enjoyed their communion and fellowship together on the Lords day.

Further still, you don't really think Pauls preaching here was like the church service we generally see on a Sunday, do you?
We dont have a lot of information on Pauls preaching there, other than the book of Acts. So please list your sources, for one Paul preached in a number of places during his stay in Ephesus. I know Paul also taught, argued and debated there in Ephesus, generally in synagogues, and he 'argued' with the unbelievers and such in the hall of Tyrannus for two years, and the disciples were with him, arguing would require a two way discussion, which is what I am saying. Paul was generally 'teaching' also, and showing from the scriptures, as in Acts 18:28 "...and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ"...
"And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 19:8-10)