Where did the idea for pastor dominated congregations come from?

[bushinoki]

Zelosravioli, I basically agree with you. The main problem is that nobody wants to hold Bible studies outside the main service on Sunday. That is where the whole "pastor dominated" thing comes from. It's not a forced dynamic. No one has the authority to prevent small groups of believers from coming together and studying together. The lack of this dynamic is a problem of laziness, not some tradition. If people want to enjoy that dynamic, invite others to your house, or to the nearest coffee shop, and hold a Bible study. Take turns teaching it. It's people's willingness that's the problem.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Zelosravioli, I basically agree with you. The main problem is that nobody wants to hold Bible studies outside the main service on Sunday. That is where the whole "pastor dominated" thing comes from. It's not a forced dynamic. No one has the authority to prevent small groups of believers from coming together and studying together. The lack of this dynamic is a problem of laziness, not some tradition. If people want to enjoy that dynamic, invite others to your house, or to the nearest coffee shop, and hold a Bible study. Take turns teaching it. It's people's willingness that's the problem.

I'm still not sure this matches with scripture, I got it. You're a pastor and such a thread is stepping on your toes for some reason. But such bible studies you speak of don't include the whole of the body, only groups. In 1 Cor 14, Paul was teaching that when all the saints come together there should be shared responsibility. Still, no where in that chapter (the most comprehensive scriptural teaching on church gatherings) does Paul say the Pastor does this or that and everyone else needs to be silent. He emphasizes the role and responsibility of all saints in the service, not just one.

 

[Alithis]

Zelosravioli, I basically agree with you. The main problem is that nobody wants to hold Bible studies outside the main service on Sunday. That is where the whole "pastor dominated" thing comes from. It's not a forced dynamic. No one has the authority to prevent small groups of believers from coming together and studying together. The lack of this dynamic is a problem of laziness, not some tradition. If people want to enjoy that dynamic, invite others to your house, or to the nearest coffee shop, and hold a Bible study. Take turns teaching it. It's people's willingness that's the problem.

but there is a perception that they need pastoral permission.. iv seen it happen, some ladies wanted to have a thursday morning fellowship.. so they approached and asked the pastor for permission... in that case he laughed and said great idea go for it.

interesting sideline point arises here..this is where his "shepherding" role can fully come into play... him and his wife(they are one) need to surprise attend and make sure some usurper hasn't instigated that meeting for the purpose of insinuating devilish doctrines into the group... (oh yes .it happens all to often)the pastoral role can get the shepherd's rod out and realign the sheep onto the path..etc

 

[ByTheSpirit]

but there is a perception that they need pastoral permission.. iv seen it happen, some ladies wanted to have a thursday morning fellowship.. so they approached and asked the pastor for permission... in that case he laughed and said great idea go for it.

interesting sideline point arises here..this is where his "shepherding" role can fully come into play... him and his wife(they are one) need to surprise attend and make sure some usurper hasn't instigated that meeting for the purpose of insinuating devilish doctrines into the group... (oh yes .it happens all to often)the pastoral role can get the shepherd's rod out and realign the sheep onto the path..etc

I've seen this as well, even to the point where if the Pastor sees or hears about members holding groups without his permission issues come up. The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is most who go to church have the understanding that the pastor is the only one allowed to do ministry, because he is the minister (or any person the pastor chooses). No where in the New Testament is it said that only one person is to do ministry while everyone else just sits and takes it. We are all priests to serve God. We are all gifted to do a part and build up the body as a whole. Not just one or two of us

 

[hislegacy]

I've seen this as well, even to the point where if the Pastor sees or hears about members holding groups without his permission issues come up. The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is most who go to church have the understanding that the pastor is the only one allowed to do ministry, because he is the minister (or any person the pastor chooses). No where in the New Testament is it said that only one person is to do ministry while everyone else just sits and takes it. We are all priests to serve God. We are all gifted to do a part and build up the body as a whole. Not just one or two of us

You need a new church.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I home church now... no one person but Jesus running the show. Its awesome!!!

 

[zelosravioli]

'No where in the New Testament is it said that only one person is to do ministry while everyone else just sits and takes it'
Hallelujah!

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I've seen a lot of fellowship situations that have a time of learning and worship. It's all in how you see it. Getting people together in fellowship would be pretty hard for any pastor to refute, unless the congregation has given them that type of control.

 

[hislegacy]

I home church now... no one person but Jesus running the show. Its awesome!!!

Good to hear!

What gifts are functioning? What was your last outreach like! How do you reach the lost individually and as a group?

 

[Frogster]

The chief personality flaw of the false apostles of Corinth, was to dominate. Paul could not believe they put up with all of that. They took their money, and were abusive. Domination, is also what Peter said not to do in 1 peter 5.

2 Cor 11:20 For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

Earlier in Corinth, Paul called them pedagogues, (guides) not very flattering, they were strict disciplinarians, who used rods. Same word as Gal 3:24, the disciplinarian word is used in the NRSV. That is why in 4:21, the rod word is used, they, the pedagogues, sometimes beat the children.


1 Cor 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.


Paul was not actually going to hit them, but was trying to show the church the comparison of his love, "be imitators of me", vs their rodlike, domination.

1 Cor 4:21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?

All in all, sometimes extremes prove a point, and personality flaws.

 

[Frogster]

I've seen a lot of fellowship situations that have a time of learning and worship. It's all in how you see it. Getting people together in fellowship would be pretty hard for any pastor to refute, unless the congregation has given them that type of control.

Good point, they give control to the leader.

 

[Frogster]

'No where in the New Testament is it said that only one person is to do ministry while everyone else just sits and takes it'
Hallelujah!

I like your user name, so Italian!?

 

[zelosravioli]

'What gifts are functioning? What was your last outreach like! How do you reach the lost individually and as a group? (Simplyput)
Have you ever been in a small home group? (I'm sure you have) I believe the NT demonstrates the home Church is where 'all' this happened, and 'all' the gifts can function. It is so unfortunate that the education, gifts and the function of the Church is stunted as a direct result of the dominant Pastor role.

"You need a new church" (Simplyput)
We all need a Church. People are taught that listening to a lecture every week, is having Church. This is wrong, it is deceiving, and it is killing the Church, and everyone in it. People say to us "Well you should just go to a different church!" This is missing the point: I am not talking about my own need or benefit. I am concerned about the health of the Church at large, and everybody! I want to warn people, to wake up and realize what the sermon time really is, that it is not required, and what this time could be! And experiencing the 'beauty' of 'actually' having 'Church together' on a Sunday.

'... If people want to enjoy that dynamic, invite others to your house, or to the nearest coffee shop' (bushinoki)
But, why can't we have this dynamic 'at' Church ??????
Why do we have to "go somewhere else" ???
I would think that 'church is where the church was supposed to meet together' not 'go somewhere else' All the churches around here say "We are promoting small groups!" and "We strongly support small groups!" But really, do they? They don't think its so important that they would give up their pulpit time. We all meet on Sundays, let us interact on SUNDAY. I have devoted my life to the study of small groups, and I know how many 'actually' attend small groups: often only 20-40% of the congregation, and of that the participation/attendance and continuation of these groups is often 'very' inconsistent. And still: 'most' small groups have long-winded teachers who don't know how to encourage and 'model' a good discussion or conversation. I noted on this thread that I attended 5 bible study groups in a row and at each one everyone remained quiet and sat around for a 30-40 minute DVD for teaching. Think about it: Could this be because nobody knows 'how' to teach from a bible anymore??

My wife and me have held had dozens of small groups in our home (with no DVDs). I have taught many small groups over twenty years. But this discussion is about Sunday! Small home groups; small weekday groups are great, and that's the point: they are great! So why not give the small group the love it deserves, on Sunday! Making the the Pastor the main event, the main attraction, ruling over the congregations, and over every Sunday meeting, is the problem, and this is all the pastors fault.

Many of us work all week, trying to do midweek studies is often very hard for most working people and families. This is precisely 'why' we have Church on Sundays! Because so many of us work all the other days! I love meeting with my Christian friends throughout the week, but one day a week, or a few hours on Sunday, is generally about all most of us really have. And Sunday is the One day of the week most of us consistently have for Church. Not many of us work the same hours or days. Working people sometimes don't even have time for their own family until the weekend. My small group friends and their families do know me. I want to hear from them on Sunday, and be there for them on Sunday: personally and sincerely. This is the calling of 'all' Church families, brothers and sisters.

 

[zelosravioli]

Please don't interpret what I am saying 'excludes' worship prayer or singing. As worship and prayer are a part of small groups, and in fact the 'wonderful' part of smaller groups. Remember my point is that the Church should still assemble as a large group, just not be focused on one or a few individuals. It really is quite simple: change the format from lecture to conversation.

It is amazing how hard and difficult it is to express such a simple format!

'Tobeblessed' said: 'Getting people together in fellowship would be pretty hard for any pastor to refute' (Tobeblessed, pg11).
I have been involved in debates and apologetics for years, and I honestly appreciate both sides of a good argument, but unlike other debates (i.e. Predestination, the Trinity, eschatology, etc.) this debate, often has its defenders absolutely at a loss! It really is an easy debate to win. The evidence is so evident. Yet I have never had the same level of hostile responses from most other debates, like I have with this one. I have had a few protestants kick themselves trying to defend this tradition, because they quickly realize they are defending the idea of Papacy instead of the Bible (The response is usually 50/50, with those who agree being very agreeable)

I believe that this problem goes back to "Give us a king" and extends to the religious rulers, secular rulers, and mans tendency to fall under them. The Papacy removed the believer's choice in the matter and instituted the man as the head of the Church. The reformation gave this authority back to all believers, but the 'traditional model' of church service had been long ingrained into the mind of the church. The Reformation did little to change the thinking about the pastor/priest role, and the traditions of the service and ceremony that had been built around these men.

Worsening the problem is that when a person goes to Seminary they are taught that they will be responsible (in the sense that the responsibility is all theirs) for the well being, feeding, and nurturing of the flock. True, a pastors duty is to care for other believers, but this information is given in the mind set that they are the few, and that they are the professional Pastors and associate pastors. These seminary students are also taught that this is a specific office in the Church, rather than holding that this gift was given to many in the Church. This role can quickly become a power position and a bed of abuse. That is why the true pastors role is expressed as 'loving and tending' to the sheep 'not' ruling and lording over them. Worse still is these hopeful seminary students who are taught that they are Gods mouthpiece to the congregation, and that 'they' will be giving a special message to the Church. This is forgetting that the Holy Spirit was given to the whole Church (This was the New Covenant, by the way).

If you have the gift of preaching or teaching go for it. But when you combine this ministry with the role of lord and pastor, you have the recipe for abuse and control that scripture has solemnly warned us about (you either have religious leaders, or you have disciples, you can't have both). The focus on the 'assumed' professional role and office of Pastors, removes the focus of the great commission that was given to disciples. The commission to them by Jesus was neither: Go and lord over churches! Nor was it: Go sit in a pew somewhere forever. The divine call was simply to: "Go and make disciples of all". It was actually the Reformers that turned the word 'vocation' into a professional position in the church, rather than leave the word in its historic understanding, as simply: a calling in the Church.

I hear too many sermons (and followers of such) that say 'they' are being given a message FROM GOD. I could go into detail here, but if we are supposed to believe that the pulpit guarantees us that truth will be taught, then how come so much false doctrine and baloney also gets spewed from behind pulpits? Not to mention the long-winded rhetoric and repetition, weekly being practiced from pulpits as if they are only trying to fill time, have lost direction, or can't figure out how to make their point quicker. The church is told 'from the pulpit' that: What they are hearing from the pulpit is nothing but truth FROM God! And the congregation is told that they should subject themselves 'to the pulpit' and the message, 'because' the pulpit has the 'approval of the pulpit'. This is circular reasoning, and has everything in common with Roman ex cathedra than it has to do with the Bible and the authority of Gods Word (and the believers place in the body of Christ).

(Thank you Frogster, I like your name too. My Grandpa was Italian and I love Rome, but God is my Father, and Rome is not my Mother)

 

[zelosravioli]

"... if we are supposed to believe that the pulpit guarantees us that truth will be taught, then how come so much false doctrine and baloney also gets spewed from behind pulpits?" (From above)

I had to make this point, because it is true. But some have taken this to mean that I am advocating throwing out all pastors and sermons. I am 'not' saying that. I owe a huge part of my growth in the faith to Christian radio and the teaching and sermons I have listened to on my radio. I admit I am still in love with J.Vernon McGee, and I have about 400 cassette tapes I recorded of others such as Charles Swindoll, James Boice, Charles Stanley, June Hunt, Jack Hayford. Chuck Smith, Tony Evans, Walter Martin and dozens of other teachers I admire. I still listen to Christian sermons as often as I can on MP3 with Ravi Zacharias, James MacDonald, Francis Chan, Alistair Begg, Aiden Tozer, and so many others. I love hearing a good teaching or sermon.

BUT STILL a sermon is not vital to having Church, and not required for an assembly of believers. Nor should a pastor be the focus of the congregation. Nor should the sermon be the main event of our Sundays together. Nor should a sermon have a priority over discipleship, fellowship, and love.

Note that we all have radios, CDs, MP3s and online video these days. And many in the church just watch the sermon online if they don't feel like going to a service, anyways. Why do we have to sit in a pew every beautiful Sunday for this? All while surrounded by hundreds of believers whom could be using this time to teach, learn about, and get to know one another? What a strong Church that would be! There are many wonderful and awesome teachers and preachers, but still this is not the 'best' way to teach, nor is it discipleship. The preacher most often does not really know you / they don't know what your thinking / they don't know what your believing / you can't ask them a question / you can rarely check them on their thinking / and it certainly is not what coming together as believers is all about.

I want to go back to the point that a pulpit and a stage do not 'confirm' that truth is spoken there. Without having to list all the Cult leaders who began with a pulpit in front of them, just look at your TV monitor to see the likes of Haggin, Copeland, Hinn, Tilton, and such. Not to mention the just plain boring and bad sermons so many have to sit through every Sunday. Sermons can be good and bad, but the point is that there is no confirmation that a pulpit gives a speaker a stamp of infallibility, and the Bereans would agree: "Examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11)

(If you think these posts are long winded, you should hear our Pastor! That's the point, just as this post has not been interactive with others here, this also, is just a diatribe and a rant until I interact with real persons here. So, thank you for listening. My next sermon series will be a twenty part sermon on 'Getting to know and love one another' please stay seated in your pews)

 

[hislegacy]

'What gifts are functioning? What was your last outreach like! How do you reach the lost individually and as a group? (Simplyput)

Have you ever been in a small home group??

My first experiences with small groups was with an Assemblies of God church where eventually I joined staff. That was in the mid 80's. After attending Bible School at Kenneth Hagin Ministries I joined a church and helped organize and facilitate small groups within the church. It was one of the many outreach things we did that resulted in a whole lot of growth and ministry experiences. I currently lead a small group in my home that meets twice a month. So in answer to your question. Yes I have been to a small group.

I believe the NT demonstrates the home Church is where 'all' this happened, and 'all' the gifts can function. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Well, Let's take a look

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
​

So the birth of the NT church saw 3,000 join the first day. They then began to meet in homes, but please note they - the 3,000 plus - met in the Temple daily.


Let's look here also:

Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
​

That makes the church well over 8,000 - the ones that met daily in the Temple

Acts 5:12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.​

Again - early church - meeting all together in the Temple where through the hands of the leadership.....
​

 

[zelosravioli]

For one: 'I' never said we 'had' to meet in homes. In fact the point I am making is that we 'do' need to assemble as a large group (I addressed small groups because 'you' asked what kind of gifts are used in (Onlybygraces) home fellowship. My point was that all the gifts function in a small group, and better I might add). Two: they did fellowship in homes 'because' the Temple was still a difficult place for continuous service or assembly, it was after all still run by the Jewish leaders. They met outside in the outer courts, not likely anywhere inside (much like the only room we have for fellowship at most churchs on Sunday, is usually out in the parking lots and hallways).

3: Most likely they began to have fixed places of assembly somewhere, but you shouldn't assume every believer lived in that one area, they were beginning to grow all over. 4: Were you thinking the meetings in Acts (at the Temple) had a sermon and everyone sat in chairs and had a service like we have today?? A pastor I knew was trying to get me to believe that once, he held onto that belief for about 3 minutes, until he started thinking about it. He also supposed that he was like one of The Apostles teaching in the Temple (wow).

What was your point then when you said:
What gifts are functioning? What was your last outreach like! How do you reach the lost individually and as a group? (Simplyput, post 109)
My point was that the Churches 'can' meet as a large groups and have all the gifts of worship and teaching ministered, only if they are allowed to 'communicate'. This allows them to have fellowship, prayer, communion, read, and study the word together (we do have printed materials nowadays).

 

[zelosravioli]

Here it is Sunday morning again, I would love to go to church and see some friends, brothers and sisters. But because most my Christian friends are content to go sit through a service for two hours, and looking down the pews at one another, it becomes torture. Surrounded by friends while this one guy rambles on for an hour every Sunday.

How good it is when brothers get together.

 

[Alithis]

Here it is Sunday morning again, I would love to go to church and see some friends, brothers and sisters. But because most my Christian friends are content to go sit through a service for two hours, and looking down the pews at one another, it becomes torture. Surrounded by friends while this one guy rambles on for an hour every Sunday.
<snip>
How good it is when brothers get together.

“The reason the world is not seeing Jesus is that Christian people are not filled with Jesus. They are satisfied with attending meetings weekly, reading the Bible occasionally, and praying sometimes. … It is an awful thing for me to see people who profess to be Christians lifeless, powerless, and in a place where their lives are so parallel to unbelievers’ lives that it is difficult to tell which place they are in, whether in the flesh or in the Spirit.”-Smith wigglesworth

 

[Andrea411]

&#8220;The reason the world is not seeing Jesus is that Christian people are not filled with Jesus. They are satisfied with attending meetings weekly, reading the Bible occasionally, and praying sometimes. &#8230; It is an awful thing for me to see people who profess to be Christians lifeless, powerless, and in a place where their lives are so parallel to unbelievers&#8217; lives that it is difficult to tell which place they are in, whether in the flesh or in the Spirit.&#8221;-Smith wigglesworth

when we sang in church today... "more of Jesus"
I was so aware of the fact that Jesus is always ALL, it will never be that we need more Jesus. We need less of ourselves to allow more of Jesus in us.... otherwise its just this carnal battle of what I want and what the Lord is doing. He is a gentleman and will wait till I get out of the way. Therein lies the problem, ME! getting out of His way.