Where did the idea for pastor dominated congregations come from?

[Norah63]

It seems to take a storm before we cry out, Lord don't you care if we perish?
He has always cared, I am too distracted by life to hear His voice.
Forgive us and visit us again.

 

[zelosravioli]

Because leadership sets the rules, the leadership made it's own rule that the leader is set in position by God Himself. I could assemble the usual verses to make that assumption, but to justify offices of a concentrated clergy and centralized religious rulers, I would have to ignore the biblical reasoning and principles behind doctrines such as One Lord / One Shepherd / The New Covenant / The Holy Spirit / The Body of Christ, etc. As well as the warnings of 'wanting a king' / 'following' men / trusting religious 'rulers' / 'trusting' in an arm of flesh / lording over others / false teachers / Idolatry, etc. The Reformation is commonly understood to have brought the truth of sola-scriptura and sola-fide to light (scripture alone, faith alone), but the real problem was the Papacy. The liturgy/service has always been the false production that enforces the belief that the professional leadership of the church is especially endowed with truth and that they should be the center of attention during church meetings and ministry.

Although it had appeared that the Papacy, Pope and this form of control disappeared and was discontinued within the Protestantism/reformation, but this was not the case. Simply put; the priest became the pastor/preacher, and the liturgy became the sermon (and the consequential being stuck in our seats through a long religious 'service' where the laity is separated and passive throughout the service).

This 'service' continues to be the Norm for all, even Protestant churches, but is this what believers are 'supposed' to do every Sunday, or is it simply a ritual?

It is as if Christians would have no idea what to do with themselves if they assembled together on a Sunday morning. They would just stand there, and maybe dissolve into vapors or something.The terrible truth is that they probably would 'not know' what to do with themselves, all assembled together as a church.

Therein lies the problem. What happened? Have we have become so indoctrinated into this format of service that we don't know 'how' to be 'assembled' without professional help? What if you do some thing together? What if after worship you allowed people to just talk? Would we just mumble and go home? What if that was the ritual? What if the ritual was to pray, read, share, encourage, relate, and get to know one another. What if? What if?

Those who want to argue and say "Service 'must' be done the traditional way!" - why can't they just 'consider' the alternative? So I get responses like: "You can't have conversations when you have 5000 people congregated together!!" Why not?

"It would be utter chaos and confusion! The people will be utterly without direction and leadership!!"
Well who's fault would that be? Yes the leadership is at fault. If they are that dumb, then that just verifies what holding service does for a church. If they were actually maturing and being disciples, leading and teaching one another as they should, then you would not have 'chaos' would you. The Church 'was' originally made up of 'disciples'.

"The people would all be teaching false doctrines!!"
Well that was what the papacy said also. Maybe the greatest false doctrine is the doctrine of this ritual. Which is supported by the doctrine of pulpit infallability (formally Papal infallability).

"Its not about you, it's about God!"
And since when is God not about people?? God came to Earth / God is here, His Holy Spirit indwells His people / The new Covenant was God with us / We are all called to be disciples, and make disciples / Jesus walked and talked with His disciples. And so God is not on a stage every Sunday with a microphone, God is in the midst of His people, and He walks with us, and talks with us. This is what we need to experience on Sunday, God with us, not on a stage.

And 'the' Pastor is not the only one in the room with the Holy Spirit. And 'the' Pastor is not the only one in the room with something to say. And 'the' Pastor not the only one in the room with wisdom. And 'the' Pastor is not the only one in the room who is able to teach (if he is the only one, well then his teaching hasn't been very effective). And no 'one' should be the center of attention every Sunday.

 

[hislegacy]

Here it is Sunday morning again, I would love to go to church and see some friends, brothers and sisters. But because most my Christian friends are content to go sit through a service for two hours, and looking down the pews at one another, it becomes torture. Surrounded by friends while this one guy rambles on for an hour every Sunday.

How good it is when brothers get together.

That's a shame! What city are you in or near? I might be able to hook you up with a good church. We are about 3,000 and growing.














Here you could praise and worship with many brothers and sisters, all singing pirates the King of Kings! You would here an inspiring message and a call to go out and reach others for Christ. But, you would also have the opportunity to join a number of ministries.

Small Groups
Homeless Outreach
Feeding Ministry
Divorce Recovery
Five different Bible classes (last six weeks)
Woman's Ministry
Men's Ministry
Businessmen's outreach
Job Preparation and search
Missions - a variety of support positions, including trips to 30+ different missionaries we support
Church Planting Team
Community Service Groups

​

The reason why we are growing is because of how many people we reach with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure there is a pastor, yes he is the shepherd of the church, as such he directs things. But what you might not see is the infrastructure, the many many hands and voices that carry out the ministry.

Love to have you come see what the real church looks like -​

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm still not sure this matches with scripture, I got it. You're a pastor and such a thread is stepping on your toes for some reason. But such bible studies you speak of don't include the whole of the body, only groups. In 1 Cor 14, Paul was teaching that when all the saints come together there should be shared responsibility. Still, no where in that chapter (the most comprehensive scriptural teaching on church gatherings) does Paul say the Pastor does this or that and everyone else needs to be silent. He emphasizes the role and responsibility of all saints in the service, not just one.

I believe that she was talking about 'in addition' to a Sunday service for a Bible study. Not as a substitute for Sunday and all the saints are gathered together.

Let us not forget that the Word says "where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there also".

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here it is Sunday morning again, I would love to go to church and see some friends, brothers and sisters. But because most my Christian friends are content to go sit through a service for two hours, and looking down the pews at one another, it becomes torture. Surrounded by friends while this one guy rambles on for an hour every Sunday.

How good it is when brothers get together.

I would hope that you would seek to find another church.

I went through a time years back where I was thinking about finding another church. What I started to do was go to a Wednesday service in addition to Sundays.

Or find a group of people of the same faith that meet. I would try to 'supplement' your Sunday service. You may find what you need or you may find that you really want a different church, but then you will have options.

 

[Svt4Him]

When God put moses in charge, who was moses accountable to?

 

[zelosravioli]

When God put moses in charge, who was moses accountable to? (Svt4him)
Not sure where your heading with that, but Moses is accountable to God. As is everyone actually.

A better question would be 'Were the Israelites accountable to Moses?'
They were accountable to God and His Word, whether a person 'followed' Moses or any other Prophet would only be as the Prophet followed God also, not otherwise. Prophets had to demonstrate or prove their words with miraculous intervention. And still, it was not the messenger that received allegiance, but the Word of God itself was what (or Whom) demanded allegiance. And the precept has always been to obey God rather than man.

 

[zelosravioli]

'I believe that she was talking about 'in addition' to a Sunday service for a Bible study. Not as a substitute for Sunday and all the saints are gathered together' (Tobeloved, post 124). So actually, BYtheSpirit was speaking of the general 'large' assembly, I would assume the Sunday service: 'But such bible studies you speak of don't include the whole of the body, only groups' (BytheSpirit, 102). Which was a response to Bushinokis post 101: 'No one has the authority to prevent small groups of believers from coming together and studying together' (Bushinoki, post 101)

I agree Bushinoki, no one should have the authority to do that. Then why do institutional pastors / preachers command authority to do just that?

That is: Why does the traditional service format prevent small groups of believers from coming together and studying together on Sunday? Because the traditional structure of the so typical church service is to have the Pastor/Priest be the center of attention, officiate, command, lord over, and talk through the entire service and assembly every Sunday morning, in 90% of all Sunday services world wide. So the question remains: Where does that come from?
(hint)

 

[zelosravioli]

(Most of the arguments above are from sincere believers, so I love you all, don't feel I am attacking your faithfulness, just consider what I'm saying, because it is being missed)

My previous posts stated that many churches no longer have any Sunday schools or Sunday bible studies/fellowships, at all. I pointed out that some Pastors do not tolerate smaller groups assembling within the building on Sunday, and certainly many do not tolerate adult groups that might run consecutively with the pastors main service.

I am becoming concerned that the 'supposed' push for small weekly home studies, rather than Sunday meetings at church, is really not that sincere. It is actually divisive, and greatly reduces the opportunity for the fellowship, communion and the community we should have on Sunday. Remember that I believe small groups are where real Church, love and Christianity truly happens. Weekday small groups are fantastic, but preventing the larger assemblies from having the same environment for interactive fellowship, conversation and mingling together on Sunday, is at it's core very divisive. And I am afraid, not from God.

The reason we should gather as a large assembly is for the actual fellowship of the body through actual 'assembly' (putting ourselves together: not superficially). That is: not a 'perceived' feeling of unity, like you get when going to a football game or movie theater. The isolation, autonomy, loneliness, and disconnectedness of life is 'not' solved or helped by large crowds or meetings where interaction and conversation can be entirely absent. Those who never come back to church aren't all together ignorant of the lack of sincere love that scripture speaks of between believers, and the lack of interaction, care, prayer and concern for one another at church in these 'assemblies' (that seem so fun, fulfilling and comforting to 'some').

Please do not ignore the fact that Sunday at church is often idolizing the Pastor or a religious experience, and ignoring most of the people, who are 'not ignorant' of this.

 

[geetrue]

We are all like sheep that have gone astray ...

My sheep hear my voice ...

My sheep follow after me ...

Find the narrow path that leads to the narrow gate ...

Strive to enter in through the narrow gate ...

Sheep need a shepherd ...

Jesus said "If you love me feed my sheep, feed my lambs"

How you doing Brian? Making a come back from the valley you've been in?

 

[Biblicist]

So the question remains: Where does that come from?

Rome!

 

[Svt4Him]

When God put moses in charge, who was moses accountable to? (Svt4him)
Not sure where your heading with that, but Moses is accountable to God. As is everyone actually.

A better question would be 'Were the Israelites accountable to Moses?'
They were accountable to God and His Word, whether a person 'followed' Moses or any other Prophet would only be as the Prophet followed God also, not otherwise. Prophets had to demonstrate or prove their words with miraculous intervention. And still, it was not the messenger that received allegiance, but the Word of God itself was what (or Whom) demanded allegiance. And the precept has always been to obey God rather than man.

So what happened to the people of Israel when they said that they too were God's people and they didn't need to follow His delegated authority? Anyone who claims to follow God must recognize that when God puts someone in authority over you, you answer to them as far as their advice doesn't counter the word of God or our conscience.

 

[zelosravioli]

You may have missed the point made in post 127: 'Prophets had to demonstrate or prove their words with miraculous intervention. And still, it was not the messenger that received allegiance, but the Word of God itself was what (or Whom) demanded allegiance' (post 127)
It is true that some of those in pulpits seem to think of themselves as Moses, but a real Prophet was so ONLY because they could verify so with actual prophecies and miracles that came to pass. like parting the Red Sea for instance. And again, the point of the verified prophet was to authenticate the canonization of the message, that is that the message was indeed Gods Word.

Tell me 'who' in a pulpit has the 'authority', the priest/pastor, or the Word of God?
Right, it is Gods Word that is our authority. Anyone who 'claims' to follow God (such as priests/pastors/teachers) must recognize that Gods Word is the authority. Otherwise it is them that do not know who has the authority, and they who are teaching falsehood.

Your arguing that the 'chair' pulpit, or office verifies the truth, that position has a extremely poor track record, historically, and biblically.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If a pastor thinks of themselves in a position higher than being a 'servant of Christ' than I see red flags.

We are all servants of Christ, we follow His example as He came only to serve mankind.

I really believe that if we (Christians) would hold our pastor/teachers to God's standard we could weed out a lot of these bad pastors. But when we continue with them, accepting them, allowing them to 'control' rather than to shepherd the flock given to them by Jesus Christ, we in a way create our own problem, because we stay and put up with it. We give them the audience to be controlling or domineering because if we are still there, we are supporting it. Even if it is just sitting in the pews.

I'm sorry, but that it just the reality of it.

 

[Biblicist]

You may have missed the point made in post 127: 'Prophets had to demonstrate or prove their words with miraculous intervention. And still, it was not the messenger that received allegiance, but the Word of God itself was what (or Whom) demanded allegiance' (post 127)
It is true that some of those in pulpits seem to think of themselves as Moses, but a real Prophet was so ONLY because they could verify so with actual prophecies and miracles that came to pass. like parting the Red Sea for instance. And again, the point of the verified prophet was to authenticate the canonization of the message, that is that the message was indeed Gods Word.

Tell me 'who' in a pulpit has the 'authority', the priest/pastor, or the Word of God?
Right, it is Gods Word that is our authority. Anyone who 'claims' to follow God (such as priests/pastors/teachers) must recognize that Gods Word is the authority. Otherwise it is them that do not know who has the authority, and they who are teaching falsehood.

Your arguing that the 'chair' pulpit, or office verifies the truth, that position has a extremely poor track record, historically, and biblically.

My concern with the concept of having a "pastor" in charge of a congregation is twofold; the first being that there is of course absolutely no support for such an Office. Most importantly, as this often horrid role has far too often placed such heavy weights on the often faithful person who has walked into such a role, where the pressures that this role has placed on their lives often results in a complete moral failure or even where they have committed suicide, then I would much prefer to see us returning to a more Biblical model where the leadership of the local church resides corporately amongst the Elders.

This does not mean that they could not appoint someone to be their spokeman, but it should never be a long-term role where maybe the spokespersons role could be rotated amongst those Elders who are up to the task.

 

[Biblicist]

That's a shame! What city are you in or near? I might be able to hook you up with a good church. We are about 3,000 and growing.














Here you could praise and worship with many brothers and sisters, all singing pirates the King of Kings! You would here an inspiring message and a call to go out and reach others for Christ. But, you would also have the opportunity to join a number of ministries.

Small Groups
Homeless Outreach
Feeding Ministry
Divorce Recovery
Five different Bible classes (last six weeks)
Woman's Ministry
Men's Ministry
Businessmen's outreach
Job Preparation and search
Missions - a variety of support positions, including trips to 30+ different missionaries we support
Church Planting Team
Community Service Groups

​

The reason why we are growing is because of how many people we reach with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure there is a pastor, yes he is the shepherd of the church, as such he directs things. But what you might not see is the infrastructure, the many many hands and voices that carry out the ministry.

Love to have you come see what the real church looks like -​

How about;
. . .

 

[zelosravioli]

"Here you could praise and worship with many brothers and sisters, all singing pirates the King of Kings!'' (SimplyPut #123) The OP, and many posts here are not speaking of the 'worship' or 'music' part of an assembly, we are talking about the pastor dominated part, the sermon and everything that's performed by a few up front. Most everyone loves the worship music (many like me, go just for the music) but then you are TRAPPED, and can't get out, and then the pastor/priest begins this hour long sermon/speech (please let me out, or someone please get the mic from him!)

"You would hear an inspiring message and a call to go out and reach others for Christ (SimplyPut #123) How many inspiring messages do you need before you can "go out and reach others for Christ"?? If you've heard it 'twice' I would think that would be enough ?!?

I am inspired, now what? Every Sunday inspired people should just sit and be inspired again? I believe many people don't need more 'inspiring', they're ready all ready. How about just doing Christianity rather than sitting in pews getting inspired?? Inspired to what, Love? Care? Share? Pray? Disciple? Be a neighbor? Be a friend? Teach? Encourage? 'Inspired' to talk to the person sitting in the pew next to you? How about stopping the sermon, and build relationships with these people and neighbors for an hour, instead of sitting and being inspired to do so?? That is what I am saying.


The sermon is defended as being our 'marching orders' or 'Gods word' for the day, or something. I am a well versed student of theology, I am a lover of all things academic, I am very dogmatic about doctrine, I am 'all' about teaching, and all about 'correct' doctrine, but come on people: Christianity is not that difficult, really, that's the beauty of it. The scriptures are inexhaustible, but 'most' people 'should' be able to open a bible and study together in a group, witness with, and to others, at least within a couple years or so. I know I, and others that were teaching and witnessing within 6 months of first being a believer. You can do this people

 

[ToBeLoved]

I will say as a talking point, that there does need to be someone to lead the flock in teaching, don't you guys think?

Otherwise, how will they learn the Word of God?

I do not see how having an open church service to socializing can take the place of good, solid biblical teaching.

We all know how important the Word of God is. How does the flock learning that fit in to these scenarios? If I may ask.

 

[Biblicist]

"Here you could praise and worship with many brothers and sisters, all singing pirates the King of Kings!'' (SimplyPut #123) The OP, and many posts here are not speaking of the 'worship' or 'music' part of an assembly, we are talking about the pastor dominated part, the sermon and everything that's performed by a few up front. Most everyone loves the worship music (many like me, go just for the music). . .

It can be hard to define what an ideal meeting would look like, but over the past decade or so where our church adopted a seeker-sensitive approach to worship entertainment, I have taken the opposite approach to you where I regularly started to go into the meeting just near the end of the entertainment component of our meetings.

 

[Biblicist]

I will say as a talking point, that there does need to be someone to lead the flock in teaching, don't you guys think?

Otherwise, how will they learn the Word of God?

I do not see how having an open church service to socializing can take the place of good, solid biblical teaching.

We all know how important the Word of God is. How does the flock learning that fit in to these scenarios? If I may ask.

Ideally each reasonably sized congregation should have a few competent teachers as most senior 'pastors' often seem to be less capable of providing solid teaching.