When your spouse is a big fat liar

[mkgal1]

This is from the link that Catherineanne provided...

In my opinion, the DSM IV criteria (listed at the bottom) for Narcissistic Personality Disorder do not really help the average person. Sometimes people have narcissistic traits that overwhelm us, and we feel drained by their behaviour. When an aura of confusion surrounds an encounter with someone grossly narcissistic, it helps us to recognise this red flag, and to take measures to deal with that person. Narcissistic Personality Disorder does not run rampant in our population, but dealing with narcissistic people may be a challenge for many of us across our respective lifetimes.


Even though I have a Master's in psychology, it did not help me identify and deal with people who are severely narcissistic. The cues, the verbal abuse and emotional abuse, and the manipulation, can be subtle and insidious; our sense of self erodes over time as the narcissist slowly undermines us

Most of the literature that I had read about Ns in the past was about their sense of "grandiosity"....and it would talk about them living a lavish lifestyle etc. I couldn't relate to any of that.....but, everything that you (Catherineanne) are saying, is what's being lived out.

What I'm seeing written so often is, how even people that are aware (and educated) of the Psychology, still miss it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Most of the literature that I had read about Ns in the past was about their sense of "grandiosity"....and it would talk about them living a lavish lifestyle etc. I couldn't relate to any of that.....but, everything that you (Catherineanne) are saying, is what's being lived out.

I am afraid that literature has fallen for the N hype. Ns imagine themselves to be special, but sometimes they are very ordinary people indeed; that is what makes them so dangerous.

A little narcissism is a good thing; it enables us to have a stable sense of self, and to believe in ourselves. It is very likely that those of us who have lived with the more toxic kind of narcissists will have too little of this. In my own case I have a very fragile self, and it is prone to disintegrate without warning if I am around the wrong kind of people for too long. This is useful as a warning sign, but only if I realise in time and can get away. If I can't get away, I disintegrate.

I have a fragmented personality. Ns cause me to lose touch with who I am. But on the plus side I have a very keen awareness of when there is an N anywhere near; even described by other people. I can't actually diagnose anyone, but I can talk about patterns, and about what I have known.

What I'm seeing written so often is, how even people that are aware (and educated) of the Psychology, still miss it.

It looks as if they are looking for the N projection, rather than the N. The projection is not real; it is an illusion. You have to look for an ordinary person with an exagerrated sense of self, not for an extraordinary person. Some Ns will achieve great things, but none of them are quite as good as they think they are. Very little in the N illusion is real.

The vague sense of confusion is a very good way of knowing there is an N about; like being Alice in Wonderland, suddenly falling down a rabbit hole. When that happens, we will assume it must be us. It is not us; it is them.

 

[Chaplain David]

I've seen this for years with my husband and it really troubles me. Most people know the history - inappropriate content, online flirtations, an EA with a neighbor - but what troubles me most right now, is his lying. I know from experience, from when I was trying to uncover at different times what he was doing, that he was a "good" liar. He can lie, straight faced, charmingly, in great depth and with such credibility .. you would not know they were lies, if you didn't know they were lies, IYKWIM. The first time I saw him do it was many many years ago, when he lied to my dad right in front of me. We were struggling financially at that time, and we hadn't paid our phone bill, so it had been cut off. We were waiting for him to get paid so we could get it reconnected. My dad was staying with us (we were still living in England then), and he wanted to call his friend. I didn't want to tell him the truth, so I said there was a fault on the line - yes, I lied. I would have left it there, but then my husband went into this long story about how BT had sent out workmen, but the workmen couldn't find the fault, and so now they were sending out someone else .. I mean, he almost had me convinced that we had a fault on the line by the time he was done. Sure, I lied too. I lied out of embarrassment to tell my dad the truth. But why did my husband lie? He had no reason to say anything whatsoever as my dad had accepted my lie as truth, and hadn't asked any questions. So, I think that made me wary of my h even then.

I'll cut short the part in the middle about him lying about all the other stuff with inappropriate content, women etc. But again, very complex, very believeable lies - at least they were believable for a while.

Cut to tonight. A couple of months ago, our eldest son's gf asked my h if we could all go camping when she graduated hs. To me, I think she was being cheeky to ask for this, because it's quite an expense for 6 people to rent a place, take a dog, pay for the food, eating out etc. We're talking about $300-$400, and that's more of a graduation gift we would give our kids. I mean we love her and everything, but still ... anyway, my h started looking into it but didn't even talk to me about it until last week, which is only a month to graduation. I don't even know why he talked this over with our son and his gf and not with me. So I told him that my summer classes started that weekend, and I am not going to be away from the computer for 3 days with Maymester only being so short and so much to do in that time. So he asked me what he should say to the gf, and I said he would have to tell her that we couldn't do it after all. I was pretty irritated that I hadn't been a part of the discussion - so asking me to be part of the solution is another piece of cheek, imho.

Anyway, he told our son yesterday some story, and when he came back with his gf tonight, apparently she wanted to hear for herself why we couldn't go, and I literally had to walk out of the room and go upstairs, because my husband sat there and lied up and down and sideways about what the people told him about how it gets filled up, and how all the military folks have taken the spots because of x, y and z, and how he tried this other place, and then another place .. I could still hear him talking several minutes later from the bedroom, so he didn't stop there.

It really bothers me. How can you ever trust someone who lies like that? He didn't even have to lie at all. He could have told her the truth about my classes, and admitted that he messed up with not even asking me, when I could have told him months ago, when all this was started, that my classes would be starting then, and there's no way I am taking that time out. My school comes first, you know? There's a lot based upon me pulling my degree off as quickly as possible.

Anyway .. .. that's my life with a husband I cannot trust to tell me the truth from day to day, hour to hour ..

Jane I am sorry for all of this. After reading some of the posts it sounds like some of you married some real doozies.

Have you ever just said, we're going to a good marriage and family therapist or I'm out of here? If you've gone, were the boundaries for each of you clear and did you each adhere to them? Doesn't sound so good and I would really like you to have a good marriage. I do and there's nothing like it. I mean we have problems and the occassional minefield but all in all, I have the best woman in the world.

The thing that makes our marriage good isn't just that we tend to do the right stuff but it's that if we are wrong, we always come back to the other to see how we can make it right. Doesn't always happen quickly but we do that. God bless you and your husband and family. I pray the very best for you.

In Christ,

 

[Catherineanne]

Jane I am sorry for all of this. After reading some of the posts it sounds like some of you married some real doozies.

Have you ever just said, we're going to a good marriage and family therapist or I'm out of here? If you've gone, were the boundaries for each of you clear and did you each adhere to them? Doesn't sound so good and I would really like you to have a good marriage. I do and there's nothing like it. I mean we have problems and the occassional minefield but all in all, I have the best woman in the world.

The thing that makes our marriage good isn't just that we tend to do the right stuff but it's that if we are wrong, we always come back to the other to see how we can make it right. Doesn't always happen quickly but we do that. God bless you and your husband and family. I pray the very best for you.

In Christ,

With a normal couple experiencing problems, if either side suggests a counsellor the other will not like the idea, but will generally agree to give it a go; what do they have to lose?

If someone particularly narcissistic is involved they may well refuse to go for counselling. To do that would be to admit that there is a problem, and Ns have no problems. If there is a problem at all, it will be something wrong with their spouse, so she can do to get counselling if she likes; that is fine. In fact, that will confirm the N in pathologising his wife and regarding her as inadequate, flakey, unstable or whatever.

So while it is right and proper to recommend counselling to try to save a marriage, with an N it may well be a non starter, I am sorry to say. If they go at all they will expect the counsellor to agree with them; if that does not happen they are unlikely to return.

 

[Chaplain David]

With a normal couple experiencing problems, if either side suggests a counsellor the other will not like the idea, but will generally agree to give it a go; what do they have to lose?

If someone particularly narcissistic is involved they may well refuse to go for counselling. To do that would be to admit that there is a problem, and Ns have no problems. If there is a problem at all, it will be something wrong with their spouse, so she can do to get counselling if she likes; that is fine. In fact, that will confirm the N in pathologising his wife and regarding her as inadequate, flakey, unstable or whatever.

So while it is right and proper to recommend counselling to try to save a marriage, with an N it may well be a non starter, I am sorry to say. If they go at all they will expect the counsellor to agree with them; if that does not happen they are unlikely to return.

It's really hard to deal with legitimate, DSMIV classified N's. I know someone very well who is an N and while they have their good points, it's been impossible for me to have a good relationship with me because the other half of the person in the relationship is not there. They can't be there and it's not really their fault, it's a mental illness but it is still hard. N's really like everything going the way they want but one of the kickers is that even when it is, it's never enough. God bless.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Wow, Catherineanne. You certainly have a lot of experience and knowledge in this area. God is using your pain for His good.

I suspected my wife to be an N and even brought it up with a counselor we were seeing. We didn't see her long enough to address that. I see some of the tendencies in her that you are describing, like lack of empathy, empty promises, and unwillingness to admit wrong doing or forgive me for my wrongdoings. Just not sure where on the scale of healthy to unhealthy my suspicions lie.

I have made up in my mind my boundaries. Our 9th anniversary is a week from tomorrow. She just started seeing her 6th counselor for her various issues that have contributed to the breakdown in our marriage. I'm not convinced there will be a 10th anniversary, but remain hopeful that things will change.

Jane - you are a Godly woman and I commend you for your honoring your marriage the way you have despite what you have had to put up with.

 

[David Jerome]

I think spouses who lie have some deep emotional issues that they're too afraid to talk about. The OP said the husband lied about inappropriate content...there's an obvious sexual issue he's too ashamed or to afraid to talk about openly with you.

People don't lie, unless they have something to hide. Lying won't stop unless you get to the root of the issue. I think some posters here are focusing too much on the behavior rather than the cause.

 

[JaneFW]

If someone particularly narcissistic is involved they may well refuse to go for counselling. To do that would be to admit that there is a problem, and Ns have no problems. If there is a problem at all, it will be something wrong with their spouse, so she can do to get counselling if she likes; that is fine. In fact, that will confirm the N in pathologising his wife and regarding her as inadequate, flakey, unstable or whatever.

So while it is right and proper to recommend counselling to try to save a marriage, with an N it may well be a non starter, I am sorry to say. If they go at all they will expect the counsellor to agree with them; if that does not happen they are unlikely to return.

Absolutely true. We have been to counselling twice. After two sessions, my h said he thought the counsellor was on my side, and didn't want to go any more. So we stopped.

Second time - he didn't see why we had to go to counseling (he didn't the first time either) - and again I chose a man, so that my h would feel more comfortable, but while my h agreed with what he said at the time, by a few weeks later, he was saying that the counselor had no idea what he was talking about. We didn't finish out the sessions we had planned, and none of the real issues was ever raised.

I would really like to go to counselling just for myself. I'm beyond believing it can help the marriage, but I would sure like to sort out my own head.

 

[JaneFW]

I think spouses who lie have some deep emotional issues that they're too afraid to talk about. The OP said the husband lied about inappropriate content...there's an obvious sexual issue he's too ashamed or to afraid to talk about openly with you.

People don't lie, unless they have something to hide. Lying won't stop unless you get to the root of the issue. I think some posters here are focusing too much on the behavior rather than the cause.

The behavior is what affects the marriage. My husband has lied about a wide range of things, inappropriate content just being a small part of it. He has lied pretty much non-stop for our whole marriage. He lied to me yesterday (fact), and I'm sure he lied to me today too. I think it has become such a habit, he wouldn't know the truth if it kicked him in the behind.

 

[David Jerome]

The behavior is what affects the marriage. My husband has lied about a wide range of things, inappropriate content just being a small part of it. He has lied pretty much non-stop for our whole marriage. He lied to me yesterday (fact), and I'm sure he lied to me today too. I think it has become such a habit, he wouldn't know the truth if it kicked him in the behind.

I don't think it is; for example, if your husband was honest about watching inappropriate content, would you then be okay with it?

Lying is simply a sympton of deeper issues.

 

[Athene]

I think spouses who lie have some deep emotional issues that they're too afraid to talk about. The OP said the husband lied about inappropriate content...there's an obvious sexual issue he's too ashamed or to afraid to talk about openly with you.

People don't lie, unless they have something to hide. Lying won't stop unless you get to the root of the issue. I think some posters here are focusing too much on the behavior rather than the cause.

This is a well meaning attitude, but when you're dealing with abusive personalities the last thing you ever want to do is get them to focus on themselves. Abusers already do that, they believe other people are the cause of their behaviour, they don't see that they do anything wrong. They think the world revolves around them and they can shoot rainbows out of their .... you get the idea.

The most successful (and I use that world lightly because abusers have very high rates of recidivism) abuser programs will always turn discussions round to focussing on the behaviour and the consequences that has on other people. The aim is to get the abuser to empathise with the victim, instead of keeping the focus inwards.

 

[David Jerome]

This is a well meaning attitude, but when you're dealing with abusive personalities the last thing you ever want to do is get them to focus on themselves. Abusers already do that, they believe other people are the cause of their behaviour, they don't see that they do anything wrong. They think the world revolves around them and they can shoot rainbows out of their .... you get the idea.

The most successful (and I use that world lightly because abusers have very high rates of recidivism) abuser programs will always turn discussions round to focussing on the behaviour and the consequences that has on other people. The aim is to get the abuser to empathise with the victim, instead of keeping the focus inwards.

Well maybe we now have the reason why these "abuser programs" aren't very successful. If you don't get to the root cause of something, the problem will always be there.

 

[JaneFW]

I don't think it is; for example, if your husband was honest about watching inappropriate content, would you then be okay with it?

Lying is simply a sympton of deeper issues.

Duh, no. I wouldn't be okay with him chasing women either, or flirting with them online, or any of the other 101 things he has done that show he has no sexual fidelity whatsoever. Is there something wrong with not being happy when your spouse can't keep his or her vows? Maybe I crossed into the twilight zone unwittingly.

Yes, he has problems, but his problem isn't shame from the behavior - the behavior itself is the problem.

Believe it or not, N's don't see this behavior as a problem. They were "just talking" or "just looking at this" or "just ..." whatever.

And the biggest problem? The fact that that he doesn't see his denial of a problem as a problem.

And so it goes.

 

[David Jerome]

Duh, no. I wouldn't be okay with him chasing women either, or flirting with them online, or any of the other 101 things he has done that show he has no sexual fidelity whatsoever. Is there something wrong with not being happy when your spouse can't keep his or her vows? Maybe I crossed into the twilight zone unwittingly.

The behaviors you described are indeed wrong. There's no argument there, and they need to stop immediately. All I'm saying, is that if they "stop", those issues will still linger. You may have a functional marriage on paper, if there's no outright breach of marital vows, but you'll still have issues in your marriage.

Believe me, I'm not saying the behavior should be ingored in the slightest; you have more than enough right to be upset at them, and demand they stop. I'm just saying, get at the root.

Yes, he has problems, but his problem isn't shame from the behavior - the behavior itself is the problem.

Believe it or not, N's don't see this behavior as a problem. They were "just talking" or "just looking at this" or "just ..." whatever.

And the biggest problem? The fact that that he doesn't see his denial of a problem as a problem.

And so it goes.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. It's easy to spit out advise when you're not in this situation yourself. It must be hard to even talk about on a public forum.

All I'm saying, is that if your husband denies the behaviors you can see him doing, adressing the behavior directly isn't working. Try getting at the root of the issue instead; try to get him to open up about his sexual issues, and go from there.

For example, instead of adressing his inappropriate content habbit, try to get into a dialogue about inappropriate content...not HIS inappropriate content habbits, but inappropriate content in general. That may reveal somethings, both to you and him, and maybe you both can find a solution.

 

[Catherineanne]

It's really hard to deal with legitimate, DSMIV classified N's. I know someone very well who is an N and while they have their good points, it's been impossible for me to have a good relationship with me because the other half of the person in the relationship is not there. They can't be there and it's not really their fault, it's a mental illness but it is still hard. N's really like everything going the way they want but one of the kickers is that even when it is, it's never enough. God bless.

That is all very true.

It is also true that it is often hard to get an N classified under DSM IV because they will not go along to a doctor to discuss what might be wrong with them; there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[JaneFW]

All I'm saying, is that if your husband denies the behaviors you can see him doing, adressing the behavior directly isn't working. Try getting at the root of the issue instead; try to get him to open up about his sexual issues, and go from there.

I believe you are well meaning, but really we have been through the mill on this time after time, and my husband fails to see that he has a problem, in fact in classic "IWM" he says that *I* have the problem for even thinking he has a problem, or that we have any marital problems at all. It's a total messed up, screwed up, Catch 22 situation, that I have no way of dealing with. The information that Catherienanne has provided has been illuminating, and I see now why we continue to go round and round, with his denial, his lies, his refusal to see the reality .. and it doesn't look like classic N behavior. The more I read about it, the more it first. Of course I'm not a shrink, etc. So, I don't know where I go from here. I just know that I'm noticing things more and more that are totally out of whack. After 13 years of waiting for change, I doubt that change is suddenly around the corner, but I'm not cutting God out of the equation either.

 

[Athene]

Well maybe we now have the reason why these "abuser programs" aren't very successful. If you don't get to the root cause of something, the problem will always be there.

You misunderstand me, the most successful programs are those which look at the behaviour and not the root cause, the least successful ones are those that look at the root cause.

See Lundy Bancroft - Why Does He Do That. At the time of writing the book he had 15 years experience working with abusive men. Looking at the root cause gave these men an excuse to continue abusing, it wasn't their fault you see, they had bad childhoods, a traumatic experience. It fed their delusion that what they did to their spouse was out of their control.

 

[David Jerome]

I believe you are well meaning, but really we have been through the mill on this time after time, and my husband fails to see that he has a problem, in fact in classic "IWM" he says that *I* have the problem for even thinking he has a problem, or that we have any marital problems at all. It's a total messed up, screwed up, Catch 22 situation, that I have no way of dealing with. The information that Catherienanne has provided has been illuminating, and I see now why we continue to go round and round, with his denial, his lies, his refusal to see the reality .. and it doesn't look like classic N behavior. The more I read about it, the more it first. Of course I'm not a shrink, etc. So, I don't know where I go from here. I just know that I'm noticing things more and more that are totally out of whack. After 13 years of waiting for change, I doubt that change is suddenly around the corner, but I'm not cutting God out of the equation either.

You may have missed an edit to my post, before you replied, so I'll repeat it. But try not even adressing the behavior at all; for example, try opening up a dialogue about inappropriate content, and find out his thoughts on in. Doing so may reveal answers to both of you, and you guys may find a solution. That might help.

But if you've already tried my suggestion, than I empathize with you. I hope something changes, and that your marriage can be restored.

 

[Catherineanne]

Wow, Catherineanne. You certainly have a lot of experience and knowledge in this area. God is using your pain for His good.

That is most kind of you. Thank you.

I suspected my wife to be an N and even brought it up with a counselor we were seeing. We didn't see her long enough to address that. I see some of the tendencies in her that you are describing, like lack of empathy, empty promises, and unwillingness to admit wrong doing or forgive me for my wrongdoings. Just not sure where on the scale of healthy to unhealthy my suspicions lie.

I think for me the deal breaker would be empathy. You say lack of; does this mean none whatever, or sometimes a bit? If there is none whatever, then the chances are she is towards the unhealthy side, I am sorry to say.

I have made up in my mind my boundaries. Our 9th anniversary is a week from tomorrow. She just started seeing her 6th counselor for her various issues that have contributed to the breakdown in our marriage. I'm not convinced there will be a 10th anniversary, but remain hopeful that things will change.

It is always good to hope, while hope remains reasonable. And I am sorry for your situation.

Jane - you are a Godly woman and I commend you for your honoring your marriage the way you have despite what you have had to put up with.

Agreed on that one!

 

[David Jerome]

You misunderstand me, the most successful programs are those which look at the behaviour and not the root cause, the least successful ones are those that look at the root cause.

See Lundy Bancroft - Why Does He Do That. At the time of writing the book he had 15 years experience working with abusive men. Looking at the root cause gave these men an excuse to continue abusing, it wasn't their fault you see, they had bad childhoods, a traumatic experience. It fed their delusion that what they did to their spouse was out of their control.

I see what you're saying.