When your spouse is a big fat liar

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JaneFW

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I've seen this for years with my husband and it really troubles me. Most people know the history - inappropriate content, online flirtations, an EA with a neighbor - but what troubles me most right now, is his lying. I know from experience, from when I was trying to uncover at different times what he was doing, that he was a "good" liar. He can lie, straight faced, charmingly, in great depth and with such credibility .. you would not know they were lies, if you didn't know they were lies, IYKWIM. The first time I saw him do it was many many years ago, when he lied to my dad right in front of me. We were struggling financially at that time, and we hadn't paid our phone bill, so it had been cut off. We were waiting for him to get paid so we could get it reconnected. My dad was staying with us (we were still living in England then), and he wanted to call his friend. I didn't want to tell him the truth, so I said there was a fault on the line - yes, I lied. I would have left it there, but then my husband went into this long story about how BT had sent out workmen, but the workmen couldn't find the fault, and so now they were sending out someone else .. I mean, he almost had me convinced that we had a fault on the line by the time he was done. Sure, I lied too. I lied out of embarrassment to tell my dad the truth. But why did my husband lie? He had no reason to say anything whatsoever as my dad had accepted my lie as truth, and hadn't asked any questions. So, I think that made me wary of my h even then.

I'll cut short the part in the middle about him lying about all the other stuff with inappropriate content, women etc. But again, very complex, very believeable lies - at least they were believable for a while.

Cut to tonight. A couple of months ago, our eldest son's gf asked my h if we could all go camping when she graduated hs. To me, I think she was being cheeky to ask for this, because it's quite an expense for 6 people to rent a place, take a dog, pay for the food, eating out etc. We're talking about $300-$400, and that's more of a graduation gift we would give our kids. I mean we love her and everything, but still ... anyway, my h started looking into it but didn't even talk to me about it until last week, which is only a month to graduation. :mad: I don't even know why he talked this over with our son and his gf and not with me. So I told him that my summer classes started that weekend, and I am not going to be away from the computer for 3 days with Maymester only being so short and so much to do in that time. So he asked me what he should say to the gf, and I said he would have to tell her that we couldn't do it after all. I was pretty irritated that I hadn't been a part of the discussion - so asking me to be part of the solution is another piece of cheek, imho.

Anyway, he told our son yesterday some story, and when he came back with his gf tonight, apparently she wanted to hear for herself why we couldn't go, and I literally had to walk out of the room and go upstairs, because my husband sat there and lied up and down and sideways about what the people told him about how it gets filled up, and how all the military folks have taken the spots because of x, y and z, and how he tried this other place, and then another place .. I could still hear him talking several minutes later from the bedroom, so he didn't stop there.

It really bothers me. How can you ever trust someone who lies like that? He didn't even have to lie at all. He could have told her the truth about my classes, and admitted that he messed up with not even asking me, when I could have told him months ago, when all this was started, that my classes would be starting then, and there's no way I am taking that time out. My school comes first, you know? There's a lot based upon me pulling my degree off as quickly as possible.

Anyway .. :sigh: .. that's my life with a husband I cannot trust to tell me the truth from day to day, hour to hour ..
 

dallasapple

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Join the club..my husband "pretended" to go to a specific custmer we had ..that he had lost..for months..I mean got dressed left and said "goignto Rosewood be back later" and then provided me with FAKE invoices..(3 times a week he did this for months)..that was about 12 years ago..flash forward last month he baught a gun witout telling me...oh flash back to last year aroudn this tiem he told me "I knew he had money hdden'..Yep..he told me I KNEW he had HIIDEN thousands of $$$'s in oru closet and I said I KNEW that and he said "yes remember?" I said NO thats the point then he said well you must have forgot ...I siad I FORGOT ?He siad yep..So accoridign to him I FORGOT that several months earlier (accordign to him ) he told me "we" had thousands of dolloars "hidden' in our closet..

I said if THATS true ..seriously ..why arent YOU CONCERENED about my neurolgical functions?If I REALLY "knew about this" you should be making an appointment for me TOMORROW to have a cat scan on my BRAIN ..he said "whatever"...

anyway...I know how it feels how can you trust them?YOU CANT..final answer..YOU can NOT trust someone that lies like that straight to your face...

Dallas
 
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JaneFW

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Just to clarify. I admit that I lied that time. I freely admit that I sin on a regular basis - daily in fact. However, for honesty, I am as honest as it is possible to be without offending people. If it comes to a point where there would be real pain caused if I told the truth, like to a friend, then I would find a way around it, but other than that - I am absolutely straight, above board, and honest. I always tell my husband the truth. Because I have been so lied to over the years by him, the one thing that really does matter to me is that I am honest, even if he is not. He doesn't particularly like my honesty. He would rather I had more diplomacy or tact or sugar coated things, and for me not to tell him straight to his face what I think, but that's what I do because integrity matters to me. So yes, I have lied, and I have learned what it is like to be lied to, and so I don't do this any more.
 
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dallasapple

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Just to clarify. I admit that I lied that time. I freely admit that I sin on a regular basis - daily in fact. However, for honesty, I am as honest as it is possible to be without offending people. If it comes to a point where there would be real pain caused if I told the truth, like to a friend, then I would find a way around it, but other than that - I am absolutely straight, above board, and honest. I always tell my husband the truth. Because I have been so lied to over the years by him, the one thing that really does matter to me is that I am honest, even if he is not. He doesn't particularly like my honesty. He would rather I had more diplomacy or tact or sugar coated things, and for me not to tell him straight to his face what I think, but that's what I do because integrity matters to me. So yes, I have lied, and I have learned what it is like to be lied to, and so I don't do this any more.


I completely understand what you are saying..its the differnce between an HONEST person who lies on occassion for the betterment of everyone..evne in the Bilbe the woman lied and it was a righteous thing to do ..and a habitual liar ..a DISHONEST person who spins elaborate lies to cover their own butt.OR heck..for SPORT.."sport liars"..

I doubt any one person has NEVER told a lie by the time they reach say age 10...(probably younger but just beign conservatice)..thats not what yo are talkign abotu and I understadn you loud and clear..

Dallas
 
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JaneFW

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Join the club..my husband "pretended" to go to a specific custmer we had ..that he had lost..for months..I mean got dressed left and said "goignto Rosewood be back later" and then provided me with FAKE invoices..(3 times a week he did this for months)..that was about 12 years ago..flash forward last month he baught a gun witout telling me...oh flash back to last year aroudn this tiem he told me "I knew he had money hdden'..Yep..he told me I KNEW he had HIIDEN thousands of $$$'s in oru closet and I said I KNEW that and he said "yes remember?" I said NO thats the point then he said well you must have forgot ...I siad I FORGOT ?He siad yep..So accoridign to him I FORGOT that several months earlier (accordign to him ) he told me "we" had thousands of dolloars "hidden' in our closet..

I said if THATS true ..seriously ..why arent YOU CONCERENED about my neurolgical functions?If I REALLY "knew about this" you should be making an appointment for me TOMORROW to have a cat scan on my BRAIN ..he said "whatever"...

anyway...I know how it feels how can you trust them?YOU CANT..final answer..YOU can NOT trust someone that lies like that straight to your face...

Dallas
I don't get it any more than you do Dallas. And, yes, I don't trust anything my husband says, pretty much. I have caught him lying to me on several occasions, because later he hasn't even remembered his lie, and I'm like "yes, you said x" and he's like "no, why would I say that?" I'm thinking, exactly! Why would you? Uh. It's pretty depressing stuff. He forgets that I have really, really good recall - a quite amazing memory for events and conversations, although I wish I could remember my math lessons half so well. Blah.

Also, yes, I remember the thing with the gun. :( As a quite separate subject - imo, a spouse should not buy a gun without the other's knowledge and agreement. You guys have a 3yo grandson running around for goodness sake. I would not have had a gun in my house when the boys were little, and we did not get any until we were 100% in agreement that it was the right time, and that we could successfully keep the guns secured, and teach the boys about gun safety. Even then, I had to really get on my husband before to get a proper gun safe, and persuade him that, no, our 15yo could not have his rifle in his bedroom! :doh:It's a big commitment, not something casual, and it should absolutely have been a matter for discussion, and not for him to go and do the purchase in secret and then spring it on you.
 
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Catherineanne

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You might care to take a look at this, or Google narcissism for yourself. Narcissists are the best liars in the world, and they don't even know they are doing it; if they say it is true, then it must be true:

Narcissism Support Resources: NARCISSISM SYMPTOMS
 
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dallasapple

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You might care to take a look at this, or Google narcissism for yourself. Narcissists are the best liars in the world, and they don't even know they are doing it; if they say it is true, then it must be true:

Narcissism Support Resources: NARCISSISM SYMPTOMS

For me (not sure about Jane)..I have already looked heavily into the possiblility my husbadn is a narcassist..I am of the conclusion he has tenedncies that are out of the normal range..everyone has some narcissistic tendencies to my understandign his are just more prevelent ...there are some key personality traits however for full blown narcissim he just doesnt fit..like his extreme need for affection physically ..thats the oppostie of a narrcissit..narcissist are actually disgusted by peoples natural and normal needs for affection and sex.They consider it to be a huge weakness so they are very cold with affection ..or they USE it to entrap a narcisstic supply(a person) then taunt or tease them with it..or withold it to control the person etc..My husband has NO issue letting it be known he NEEDS affection ..a narrcissist would never "need " that ..

Dallas
 
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Catherineanne

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For me (not sure about Jane)..I have already looked heavily into the possiblility my husbadn is a narcassist..I am of the conclusion he has tenedncies that are out of the normal range..everyone has some narcissistic tendencies to my understandign his are just more prevelent ...there are some key personality traits however for full blown narcissim he just doesnt fit..like his extreme need for affection physically ..thats the oppostie of a narrcissit..narcissist are actually disgusted by peoples natural and normal needs for affection and sex.They consider it to be a huge weakness so they are very cold with affection ..or they USE it to entrap a narcisstic supply(a person) then taunt or tease them with it..or withold it to control the person etc..My husband has NO issue letting it be known he NEEDS affection ..a narrcissist would never "need " that ..

Dallas

Narcissism is on a continuum from the healthy kind that allows us all to have a degree of self esteem, to the pathological kind that equates to Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I do not think you are right, however, in saying that an N would not be able to express a need for affection. What he would not be able to do would be to recognise someone else's need for affection, and then set aside his own desires in order to meet that need for them; his own needs would be no problem whatever; in the world of the N, only his own needs exist, and everyone around him is there to meet those needs.

There are some Ns who will not ask directly, but make it clear what they want in ways that appear telepathic; they have a circle of codependents who are trained to read their mind and provide everything they need without ever having to ask. And there are others who will ask, and in very inappropriate ways. For example, an N will ask his or her children for affection, not realising that it is the role of the parents to offer affection to their children, not to demand it. This is called role reversal, and Ns do it all the time.

If your h is capable of asking for affection, that does not mean he is not following the pattern for N behaviour. My h was very needy, and made no secret of it, but he was totally oblivious to the fact that I might ever need anything myself. Much of my family is exactly the same. It is true that they will despise anyone that they come to rely upon, but they can be very, very demanding at the same time. It is always about them.

If someone is capable of being aware when you need affection, and can meet that need with empathy and consideration, that would be contrary to N behaviour. Ns are incapable of empathy.

:)
 
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dallasapple

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Narcissism is on a continuum from the healthy kind that allows us all to have a degree of self esteem, to the pathological kind that equates to Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I do not think you are right, however, in saying that an N would not be able to express a need for affection. What he would not be able to do would be to recognise someone else's need for affection, and then set aside his own desires in order to meet that need for them; his own needs would be no problem whatever; in the world of the N, only his own needs exist, and everyone around him is there to meet those needs.

There are some Ns who will not ask directly, but make it clear what they want in ways that appear telepathic; they have a circle of codependents who are trained to read their mind and provide everything they need without ever having to ask. And there are others who will ask, and in very inappropriate ways. For example, an N will ask his or her children for affection, not realising that it is the role of the parents to offer affection to their children, not to demand it. This is called role reversal, and Ns do it all the time.

:)

Hmmm..thats interesting ..everything I read made it sound liek narrcisssist have low need for physcial affection ..and sex is more like a tool or instrument to manipulate people OR just for their own physcial realease .

but still my husband has the "need" for me to have NEEDS if that makes sense..he does word things backwards though like he will say "YOU need a hug" when I clearly DONT ..LOL!!And its HIM that wants the hug for reasurence of to put his hands down the back of my pants..LOL!!But he isnt "selfish" acting ....I do get tehfeeling though if I WAS more physically needy he woudl use it agaisnt me..he uses everythign else agains tme..he mocks me for "needing' the encouragement..litterlly will tell me "HE doesnt need that" ..and or he says sorry "you need me to go ..Oh you awesome and wonderful person for cleaning the bathroom" ..like in a mocking voice..and thats not even what im talking about anyway..But he does make fun of me for SAYING I have the need to be encouraged and validated verbally what everyone says men need..RESPECT adn honor..Im deprevied of..he admitted it even he said "its not in his make up to say nice things "..

Anyway he definately got the lying part of narcissim..Adn he does think the WORLD revolves aroudn him in the sense what HE feels about something is what EVERYONE (me ) should feel too adn if they dont they are WRONG..no one can just be "differnt" its his way..his feelings'..or the"wrong way adn the wrong feelings"..His needs are "normal' my needs are "abnormal"..

Dallas
 
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JaneFW

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I didn't look any of that up yet, but I will.

I really don't get it, okay? Any thoughts on these things? I was thinking back and last year, he worked for a year at the school district. When he got a better job, he lied to his co-workers about why he was leaving. :( When he told me what he was going to say, which was that it was connected to his Master's degree (he was going to work at his alma mater) and he had to work there as part of it - I asked him why he didn't just say that he was going for a better job? Oh no, he didn't want to do that. Then when he quit that second job, again, he wouldn't tell them the truth, but said he had to have surgery that would require him being off for a long time. In fact, he was so convincing (he really is!) that they started trying to find out if they could put him on LOA!! I was like dude, really! Don't have them working hard to try to accommodate you when all you want to do is leave. I know it can be hard to give in your notice, but really! He already started telling me what to say when I leave here (when we move north) and I'm like ya know, I think I will tell them the truth!

So, he was supposed to be a helper at a Walk to Emmaus in June, but it's the weekend before he and the kids go to NM, so he said to me that he didn't really want to be gone all weekend when he leaves on Monday. I told him that it was up to him - and I said it dead straight not like "HUH, it's up to YOU, I guess" LOL. Nothing like that. I really didn't care whether he went or not. One of his friends is the director of this walk, and had asked him to be involved. So I saw this morning that he had emailed the friend's wife and told her that he had to have surgery and therefore couldn't take part on the walk!! :confused: It's just craziness. So, the wife had emailed him and said they would be praying for him etc etc. I don't know whether he ever has a fit of conscience that he is lying to some of the most sincere and Christlike people that either of us have ever met in our lives. He could have explained. He could have even not made the commitment when he knew they would be going to NM. (Just like he could have not made the camping commitment to our son's gf.)

I don't know what goes on inside of him.

I did I think actually read a little bit of the narcissim thing where it says that the person always has to have done more, seen more than others. Well, he does that too. When we first met, we talked a lot about places we had been, and I told him I had been to Amsterdam. He distinctly said to me that it was a place he had never been, and we should go together one day. I went to great length to describe to him the beautiful, tall houses, and the canal ride etc. A few weeks ago, our youngest kid said something about Amsterdam, and now suddenly my husband has been there!! I just looked at him and said I didn't think he had ever been there, and he said yes, when he was stationed in Italy, he went to Amsterdam. Like, really? I mean, Amsterdam doesn't "belong" to me, and I don't care if he had been there, but did he lie to me the first time when he said he hadn't been, or the second time when he said he had been?

Color me con.fused.
 
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mkgal1

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To me.....it sounds as if he's trying hard to protect his image---the loyal employee, nice father of boyfriend, helpful community activist image. If he were to tell the truth about changing jobs, not being able to go on the camping trip after all, or that he couldn't participate in the walk---all that would blow his image. That's my two-bit analysis.... :)
 
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JaneFW

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Hmmm, that's interesting. I guess it's like a child does stuff, right? They don't want you to think badly of them so they will tie themselves up in knots with "IWM" so they don't have to admit that they did whatever. I just don't get it. Why not just don't commit to these things? I'm still fuming that he had been discussing this camping trip with ds and his gf for months now, and I was aware that something was going on, but not the details until the other day. Then it's like "you will have to take off a Friday or a Monday." Uh, no, I don't think so - not when Maymester starts that weekend.

He does like to impress people - even our kids - and even tries with me. He needn't bother with me because, yeah, no veil over my eyes any longer. I don't know how to deal with this. I hate the lying. He also says that he hates lying, like when the kids have lied about stuff. I guess he doesn't see what he is doing as lying.
 
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Catherineanne

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An N never tells a lie. What he does is to make up reality as he goes along, and because he is incapable of making a mistake, whatever he says MUST be true. If he says one day he has not been to Amsterdam, then that is true. If he says the next day that he has not, then that is true. He has no problem with this, and if anyone around him does have a problem, then he will interpret that as a sign of disloyalty; how dare you question his truthfulness; he ALWAYS tells the truth. If you try to point out what he has said, he will flat out deny it; he will swear blind that he never said anything of the kind, and he will do this so convincingly you will assume you must be going mad.

The options are to accept his crazymaking behaviour and decide to abandon any idea whatever of an objective reality - which many, many people choose to do, rather than give up on all the hope, all the dreams, all the emotional investment they have already made, OR, to accept that this relationship is not going to go anywhere, because without an objective reality there is no possibility of trust, and therefore also no possiblity of happiness.

This is not an easy choice to make.
 
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Catherineanne

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Hmmm..thats interesting ..everything I read made it sound liek narrcisssist have low need for physcial affection ..and sex is more like a tool or instrument to manipulate people OR just for their own physcial realease .

but still my husband has the "need" for me to have NEEDS if that makes sense..he does word things backwards though like he will say "YOU need a hug" when I clearly DONT ..LOL!!And its HIM that wants the hug for reasurence of to put his hands down the back of my pants..LOL!!But he isnt "selfish" acting ....

That IS selfish acting, Dallasapple. :)

Someone who uses you to meet their needs, while pretending to be generous, is being selfish. This is very standard N behaviour. They cannot accept needing anything themselves, so they project the need onto you, and then they can feel all virtuous about meeting your need for affection. Fine if you do not mind, but what happens when you do NOT want affection, and they still tell you that you need it, and proceed to do the same thing?

At that point it becomes abusive behaviour.

Ns need everything that the rest of us need. The difference is that they will never admit it; they will manipulate to get what they want. They will take the credit for everything good, and blame other people for everything that is less than perfect. They will project their own failures onto their spouse, their children or even grandchildren; Ns have no mercy, no compassion, no empathy, and no pity whatever.

They really are not safe people to spend time with.
 
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JaneFW

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An N never tells a lie. What he does is to make up reality as he goes along, and because he is incapable of making a mistake, whatever he says MUST be true. If he says one day he has not been to Amsterdam, then that is true. If he says the next day that he has not, then that is true. He has no problem with this, and if anyone around him does have a problem, then he will interpret that as a sign of disloyalty; how dare you question his truthfulness; he ALWAYS tells the truth. If you try to point out what he has said, he will flat out deny it; he will swear blind that he never said anything of the kind, and he will do this so convincingly you will assume you must be going mad.
This just struck home with me SO forcefully. This is him. :( In the past, I started to wonder if I was losing it, that I "thought" he had said certain things, and he swore blind he had not (or vice versa). But I know I'm not losing it. Like I said, I have really good recall, and there are lots and lots of places that this same thing has happened. Also, yes, he used to say to me, before I really knew him, that he was a man of principle and integrity. Yeah, then I found out not so much. But even though he knows I know about a lot of the lies he told me, if I try to share any doubts or fears I have about him - for instance - spending a LOT of time on his laptop (which in the past was where he was doing all this crazy stuff), then he just explodes. Last time, he threw the laptop into the wall and gouged out a huge chunk. All that fuss and yelling - and yet I knew, because I had seen for myself what he was doing - so all of his yelling was just more lies. So he was shouting at me for distrusting him, when we both knew he was not to be trusted. KWIM? If I knew what he was doing, then he for sure knows what he is doing. But shouting that he wasn't meant that he wasn't?? I guess ... that fits with what you're saying. I think.

The options are to accept his crazymaking behaviour and decide to abandon any idea whatever of an objective reality - which many, many people choose to do, rather than give up on all the hope, all the dreams, all the emotional investment they have already made, OR, to accept that this relationship is not going to go anywhere, because without an objective reality there is no possibility of trust, and therefore also no possiblity of happiness.

This is not an easy choice to make.
There's not a box #3? :eek:

I have always hoped and prayed that he would become the Christian man he says he is - and that he probably thinks he is - as much for himself as for me. There must be a lot of cognitive dissonance going on, right? I mean, if I told myself I look exactly like Audrey Hepburn, and then I looked in the mirror, I would have to see that, uh, no I don't actually. Or if I thought I was 6ft tall, or could play the violin - then I would have to come down to earth as soon as I stood up, or as soon as someone handed me a violin. So, why can someone who believes they have integrity really not know that they don't? Or is that part of the condition?

I don't get it I guess.
 
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