When does the Holy Ghost enter into someone?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Holy Spirit is received when one believes.

That certainly needs clarification.
Remember the ones in the Gospels who believed but didn't receive the holy Spirit ?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Remember the ones in the Gospels who believed but didn't receive the holy Spirit ?

Is that not before the Holy Spirit was poured out?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is that not before the Holy Spirit was poured out?

Perhaps. Will address that later if needed/ if God Wills.
What about "the demons believe" ? (again, for clarity at this point)

 

[TaylorSexton]

What about "the demons believe" ?

There is a difference between belief (mere mental assent in regards to the demons) and trust (the faith of regenerate believers). James in his second chapter, regardless, is speaking of genuine faith producing fruit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is a difference between belief (mere mental assent in regards to the demons) and trust (the faith of regenerate believers). James in his second chapter, regardless, is speaking of genuine faith producing fruit.

Good, yes, thank you. (not just in regards to demons I think; 'mental assent' is not the belief for salvation nor the faith to live by for people either.)

That helps for clarity, if perhaps someone reads and thinks erroneously that either belief or faith is just 'mental assent'.

 

[samir]

There is a difference between belief (mere mental assent in regards to the demons) and trust (the faith of regenerate believers).

How can a person mentally assent to Jesus' teaching without trusting in Jesus? I agree the words believe and trust have different meanings but I don't see how it's possible to believe without trusting. For example, how can someone believe Jesus died for his sins without trusting that Jesus died for his sins?

James in his second chapter, regardless, is speaking of genuine faith producing fruit.

The way I read it is if you act on your faith then your faith will save you but if you don't act on it then your faith won't save you. The demons believed but they rebelled against God instead of obeying so their faith didn't save them.

 

[TaylorSexton]

How can a person mentally assent to Jesus' teaching without trusting in Jesus? I agree the words believe and trust have different meanings but I don't see how it's possible to believe without trusting. For example, how can someone believe Jesus died for his sins without trusting that Jesus died for his sins?

One can believe in God without trusting in him.

The way I read it is if you act on your faith then your faith will save you but if you don't act on it then your faith won't save you.

That would be an incorrect reading. The issue is genuine faith as opposed to false faith (many times manifested as mere mental assent). Genuine faith leads to good works, while false faith is "alone." Nowhere in James or elsewhere is it argued that faith must be combined with works in order to be effective. It is not the faith that is combined with works that is effective, but the faith that produces works.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How can a person mentally assent to Jesus' teaching without trusting in Jesus?

I think you actually answered your own question in the same post >>>

The way I read it is if you act on your faith then your faith will save you but if you don't act on it then your faith won't save you.

 

[samir]

One can believe in God without trusting in him.

How?

That would be an incorrect reading. The issue is genuine faith as opposed to false faith (many times manifested as mere mental assent). Genuine faith leads to good works, while false faith is "alone." Nowhere in James or elsewhere is it argued that faith must be combined with works in order to be effective. It is not the faith that is combined with works that is effective, but the faith that produces works.

What exactly is the difference between genuine faith and false faith? I understand you believe the result is different but how exactly is the faith different?

 

[TaylorSexton]

How?

A person can believe in God, and even believe that he dies for sinners, and yet still not trust in him.

What exactly is the difference between genuine faith and false faith? I understand you believe the result is different but how exactly is the faith different?

James 2:14-26

 

[samir]

I think you actually answered your own question in the same post >>>

I'm saying both people mentally assent and trust Jesus but one of them chooses to continue sinning because he loves his sins more than God even though he believes and trusts Jesus' teaching that those who do evil will be condemned.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I'm saying both people mentally assent and trust Jesus but one of them chooses to continue sinning because he loves his sins more than God even though he believes and trusts Jesus' teaching that those who do evil will be condemned.

One cannot both trust Christ and reject him at the same time. It is a logical impossibility. Either one trusts him, or he does not.

 

[samir]

A person can believe in God, and even believe that he dies for sinners, and yet still not trust in him.

Can you give me an example? If a person believes in God and believes Jesus died for sinners then he trusts that what Jesus said is true.

James 2:14-26

I studied that chapter multiple times. I see no difference between saving faith and dead faith. They are identical as far as I can tell.

 

[samir]

One cannot both trust Christ and reject him at the same time. It is a logical impossibility. Either one trusts him, or he does not.

I agree. If a person doesn't trust Jesus then he doesn't believe him either. If a doctor told a patient he had cancer, can he logically respond, "I believe you that I have cancer but I don't trust your diagnosis"?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Can you give me an example? If a person believes in God and believes Jesus died for sinners then he trusts that what Jesus said is true.

Every false believer that has ever lived.

I studied that chapter multiple times. I see no difference between saving faith and dead faith. They are identical as far as I can tell.

Then the plain language of James has eluded you.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I agree. If a person doesn't trust Jesus then he doesn't believe him either. If a doctor told a patient he had cancer, can he logically respond, "I believe you that I have cancer but I don't trust your diagnosis"?

We are not talking about believing the words of a man, but spiritual trust in Christ Jesus versus mere mental assent.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then the plain language of James has eluded you.

I think there is an english / other/ language barrier/differences / here.

Simply seeing what's been posted about 'trust' and 'belief' and so on,
there's
some basic differences in english (or other) meanings
that are not fully understood.
I don't mean deeper or whatever meanings - I mean basic simple definitions seem different here for different posters.

 

[samir]

Every false believer that has ever lived.

What teachings of Jesus do they believe but not trust?

Then the plain language of James has eluded you.

It must have eluded every Christian who lived during the first 1,000 years after Christ because none of them understood it the way you understand it.

 

[EmSw]

One cannot both trust Christ and reject him at the same time. It is a logical impossibility. Either one trusts him, or he does not.

Peter says hello.

 

[samir]

I think there is an english / other/ language barrier/differences / here.

Simply seeing what's been posted about 'trust' and 'belief' and so on,
there's
some basic differences in english (or other) meanings
that are not fully understood.
I don't mean deeper or whatever meanings - I mean basic simple definitions seem different here for different posters.

I've heard pastors say to believe and trust mean the same thing. I don't see how you can do one without the other.

I'm sure I understand believe. What does it mean to trust in Jesus?