When does the Holy Ghost enter into someone?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I've heard pastors say to believe and trust mean the same thing. I don't see how you can do one without the other.

I'm sure I understand believe. What does it mean to trust in Jesus?

To start (there is so much more later) >
This is one of the oldest stories / true stories/ examples I've heard as an example >>
http://www.inspire21.com/stories/faithstories/CharlesBlondin

A Lesson in Faith - The Charles Blondin Story

-- Author unknown

The amazing story of Charles Blondin, a famous French tightrope walker, is a wonderful illustration of what true faith is.

Blondin's greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat.

He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!

This unique story illustrates a real life picture of what faith actually is. The crowd watched these daring feats. They said they believed. But... their actions proved they truly did not believe.

Similarly, it is one thing for us to say we believe in God. However, it's true faith when we believe God and put our faith and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ.

-----

Note: In August of 1859, Blondin's manager, Harry Colcord, did ride on Blondin's back across the Falls.

Watch a short video about Blondin's amazing feats here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=lii9j95tqIw&feature=related

 

[TaylorSexton]

What teachings of Jesus do they believe but not trust?

Anything.

It must have eluded every Christian who lived during the first 1,000 years after Christ because none of them understood it the way you understand it.

Assuming this statement is true (it is not), what makes the first 1,000 of Christianity the only true interpreter of Scripture or the final authority? They got plenty wrong.

Peter says hello.

Un-expounded sarcasm contributes nothing.

I've heard pastors say to believe and trust mean the same thing.

So, because a pastor says it, it's true? How did this conversation shift from mental assent vs. trust to belief vs trust, anyway? I am talking about the former.

I'm sure I understand believe. What does it mean to trust in Jesus?

Refer to the immediate above reply.

 

[samir]

Anything.

How can a person believe Jesus died for his sins but not trust that Jesus died for his sins?

Assuming this statement is true (it is not), what makes the first 1,000 of Christianity the only true interpreter of Scripture or the final authority? They got plenty wrong.

I don't believe God left his church in chaos with everyone left to decide everything for themselves.

So, because a pastor says it, it's true? How did this conversation shift from mental assent vs. trust to belief vs trust, anyway? I am talking about the former.

The word believe means mental assent.

 

[TaylorSexton]

How can a person believe Jesus died for his sins but not trust that Jesus died for his sins?

I am talking about mental assent, not belief. Please use the terms I am using for sake of clarity.

I don't believe God left his church in chaos with everyone left to decide everything for themselves.

You're right, he didn't; He gave us his infallible Word by which to judge all matters, which is what I am doing right now.

The word believe means mental assent.

Not according to you. You literally just said the belief is trust above!

 

[samir]

I am talking about mental assent, not belief. Please use the terms I am using for sake of clarity.

Okay. How can a person mentally assent that Jesus died for his sins but not trust that Jesus died for his sins?

You're right, he didn't; He gave us his infallible Word by which to judge all matters, which is what I am doing right now.

Jesus is the infallible Word.

Not according to you. You literally just said the belief is trust above!

You can't mentally assent to something someone says unless you trust that what they said was true.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Okay. How can a person mentally assent that Jesus died for his sins but not trust that Jesus died for his sins?

Easily.

Jesus is the infallible Word.

...who spoke to us in the infallible Scriptures, which were breathed out from his very mouth.

You can't mentally assent to something someone says unless you trust that what they said was true.

Then I supposed the demons in James 2 are saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I studied that chapter multiple times. I see no difference between saving faith and dead faith. They are identical as far as I can tell.

You do know , don't you, that not only does "faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"
but also, (without which none) > "Faith is a gift, as is grace."
and
"No man can receive anything , unless the Father in heaven grants it".
i.e no faith, no understanding, no good thing unless the Father grants it.

 

[samir]

You do know , don't you, that not only does "faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"
but also, (without which none) > "Faith is a gift, as is grace."
and
"No man can receive anything , unless the Father in heaven grants it".
i.e no faith, no understanding, no good thing unless the Father grants it.

I agree. Saving faith and dead faith are both gifts from God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...Then I supposed the demons in James 2 are saved.

Again,
different use/ definition of the word "trust", et al, in this thread by different posters.
Even though some attempts to clarify definitions were made ,
it may be some time before they are grasped or understood, God Willing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree. Saving faith and dead faith are both gifts from God.

The difference between the two is perhaps largely without definition in Scripture.
Very little definition of faith is given in Scripture, and is perhaps not helpful to try too much to define it.
(as God has shown and revealed).

 

[TaylorSexton]

Saving faith and dead faith are both gifts from God.

Dead faith a gift from God? Are you mad? I hope you are prepared to back that up with Scripture.

 

[samir]

Easily.

I had to consult my dictionary. I see assent means "to agree to something especially after thoughtful consideration." I was thinking mental assent meant firmly agree, certain that is was true but I see now it looks like assent can involve uncertain agreement with doubts. If faith/believe means firmly agreeing that everything Jesus taught was true then it wouldn't be possible without trusting Jesus at the same time.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I had to consult my dictionary. I see assent means "to agree to something especially after thoughtful consideration." I was thinking mental assent meant firmly agree, certain that is was true but I see now it looks like assent can involve uncertain agreement with doubts. If faith/believe means firmly agreeing that everything Jesus taught was true then it wouldn't be possible without trusting Jesus at the same time.

Or I could just be talking about false belief...

 

[samir]

Dead faith a gift from God? Are you mad?

Nope. Quite serious. Can a person believe in Jesus without God's grace? If not, then faith is a gift from God even if it is a dead faith.

 

[samir]

Or I could just be talking about false belief...

What is false belief?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Nope. Quite serious. Can a person believe in Jesus without God's grace? If not, then faith is a gift from God even if it is a dead faith.

Why do you insist on conflating concepts? Dead faith could not be farther away from saving faith (which is what you clearly mean by "belief"). Dead faith in no way is grace. How ludicrous.

 

[TaylorSexton]

What is false belief?

James 2:14-26

 

[samir]

James 2:14-26

Are you unable to define false belief? I didn't see any false belief in James 2:14-26.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Are you unable to define false belief? I didn't see any false belief in James 2:14-26.

Then the plain language of James had eluded you.

 

[samir]

Why do you insist on conflating concepts? Dead faith could not be farther away from saving faith (which is what you clearly mean by "belief"). Dead faith in no way is grace. How ludicrous.

If a person can only have faith because of God's grace, then everyone who has faith received it as a gift from God.