What's your Messianic Judaism affiliation?

[BukiRob]

"We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15). Confusing if non-Jews wear it. We do have some non-Jews who are married to Jews or who have gone through our long confirmation process, who are approved to wear a tallit.We don't have conversion but they clearly stand with Israel for a long time. It is a case by case decision of the Elders."

It's pretty obvious what will happen if you reject the confirmation process, but continue to wear tzitzit.

Also the interpretation of Num 15 seems to be off a bit: "37Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 38"Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them that they should make themselves fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put on the fringe of each border a cord of blue: 39and it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look on it, and remember all the commandments of Yahweh, and do them; and that you not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you use to play the prostitute; 40that you may remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God."

That is the UMJC...

I know that not all of them are that strict. I think its a little unfair to cast them all in that light particularly if you haven't actually been kicked out of a synagogue

 

[Hoshiyya]

"how does your congregation specifically handle non Jewish wearing tzizit as an example?

Rabbi: "We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15). Confusing if non-Jews wear it. We do have some non-Jews who are married to Jews or who have gone through our long confirmation process, who are approved to wear a tallit."​

That there is the sound of a dying, or dead, religion. That particular type of MJ is not my type of MJ.

Discouraging ANYONE from wearing tallit?
Approval to wear tallit?

Alright Rabbi. If you want to chase people away, so be it. I'm sure there are many other religions who are eager to receive the people you've deflected.

Imagine if Catholics needed specific permission to wear crucifixes?
Or if Baptist women needed permission to wear wide-brimmed hats or what have you?

Imagine if an Italian cardinal said "non-Italians should not wear or carry a Roman Catholic symbol. If would be confusing."

Or if a an Arab imam said that only Arabs can wear or carry a crescent moon symbol, or something like that.

People seriously need to stop thinking in terms of covenants, and start thinking in terms of connecting to God.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

That is the UMJC...

I know that not all of them are that strict. I think its a little unfair to cast them all in that light particularly if you haven't actually been kicked out of a synagogue

I'm just surprised that I was led to believe that there was some unified, mainstream MJ belief system, yet there is a harsh judgement of belief from the supposedly dominant party. It's nothing personal Buki, but I was thinking that Gentiles pursuing the Torah were welcome in all MJ congregations. I'm not being unfair to all. The point is that there doesn't actually seem to be a consensus among the supposed authority figures.

 

[Open Heart]

I am first and foremost a Hebrew Catholic. Hebrew Catholicism is a movement in the Catholic Church of Jews who wish to retain our Jewish traditions. Some of us will even say we are Messianic Jewish Catholics, although our Church prefers the term Hebrew Catholic so that no one will think we are practicing Rabbinical Judaism. Some of us observe as few traditions as having a mezuzah on our door or lighting shabbat candles. Others of us have fully Orthodox observance.

In addition to that, I resonate very strongly with UMJC, its Rabbinical Council, and a subgroup called Hashivenu.

Sadly, there are no Messianic synagogues in my area. I attend the ONLY synagogue close by which is Reform, about once a month and for Holy Days. I have a past history of Orthodoxy which still influences my thinking.

 

[big macher]

I am first and foremost a Hebrew Catholic. Hebrew Catholicism is a movement in the Catholic Church of Jews who wish to retain our Jewish traditions. Some of us will even say we are Messianic Jewish Catholics, although our Church prefers the term Hebrew Catholic so that no one will think we are practicing Rabbinical Judaism. Some of us observe as few traditions as having a mezuzah on our door or lighting shabbat candles. Others of us have fully Orthodox observance.

In addition to that, I resonate very strongly with UMJC, its Rabbinical Council, and a subgroup called Hashivenu.

Sadly, there are no Messianic synagogues in my area. I attend the ONLY synagogue close by which is Reform, about once a month and for Holy Days. I have a past history of Orthodoxy which still influences my thinking.

Interesting. How is the acceptance in the Catholic church?

I'll be honest the idea of Hebrew Catholic 'weird' to me and I don't mean it in a bad way...however there are Hebrew Christians.

If you don't mind, were you raised Catholic and later found out you were Jewish?

 

[BukiRob]

I'm just surprised that I was led to believe that there was some unified, mainstream MJ belief system, yet there is a harsh judgement of belief from the supposedly dominant party. It's nothing personal Buki, but I was thinking that Gentiles pursuing the Torah were welcome in all MJ congregations. I'm not being unfair to all. The point is that there doesn't actually seem to be a consensus among the supposed authority figures.

I honestly think it has more to do with avoiding cultural confusion than anything else.

I know for a fact that the MJ synagogue I attend (which is a charter member of the UMJC) doesn't forbid gentiles from wearing a talit. There are also kippah's for use by anyone as you first enter....

There are gentiles as elders and among the leadership as well as women.... So as I've said, I cant speak for other synagogues.... I also know that our rabbi is a former past president of the UMJC.

Then there is the whole maturity issue as well. The UMJC is not very old and with that can come some immaturity.

 

[Open Heart]

Interesting. How is the acceptance in the Catholic church?

I'll be honest the idea of Hebrew Catholic 'weird' to me and I don't mean it in a bad way...however there are Hebrew Christians.

If you don't mind, were you raised Catholic and later found out you were Jewish?

It is completely Kosher with Rome. We even have our own Bishop. It'll grow on you.

I was raised fundamentalist. I converted to Catholicism as a young adult. My family has Jewish ancestry, and has retained some Jewish practices. Later in life, I fell away from Christ, and wanted to explore my Jewish roots. I had assumed I was a Jew, but my descent was not 100% matrilineal, so I made a conservative conversion. After many years of Judaism, I returned to the Church.

 

[sahjimira]

I've been a member of the MJAA and the UMJC. Both main congregations I attended and/or participated in the last 12 yrs fell into these catagories. Today I support and identify with the AMC established over 10yrs ago.

Association of Messianic Congregations

Our Purpose:
"The Association of Messianic Congregations exists to strengthen Messianic Congregations by providing resources, teaching and fellowship that promote Biblical values, proclaims personal faith in Yeshua as the one Atonement for all humanity, and encourages worship through the diversity of Jewish expressions of faith."

The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life. Both Jewish and non-Jewish believers have the freedom in Messiah to maintain any aspects of the Law of Moses which do not violate the entirety of the rest of scripture. (Acts 21:24-26; Romans 6:14;8:2;10:4;14:1-23; 1 Corinthians 9:20; 2 Corinthians 3:1- 11; Galatians 3:3,3:10-13;6:2; Ephesians 2:14 )

Revised and Approved by the AMC Board of Directors - August 28, 2003

tt
I am Messianic Christian and I sure wish tthere was an AMC I ccould attend. I live near Gainesville Florida and only one congregation there AMC sounds just like what I I'm looking for.

 

[Lulav]

tt
I am Messianic Christian and I sure wish tthere was an AMC I ccould attend. I live near Gainesville Florida and only one congregation there AMC sounds just like what I I'm looking for.

Have you visited Kol Simcha? from what I remember it is a wonderful congregation.

 

[sahjimira]

Yes I did a few yrs ago. That's probably what I'll do.TThanks for your reply

 

[ContraMundum]

Give your Rabbi a treat, a mitzvah of kindness of sorts- ask him about something other than Torah observance. He'll probably be delighted.

Ask him about his position on Christology, or election, or justification, or sanctification, or his preferred atonement theory, or eschatology, or baptism, or the Lord's Table, or prayer, or good works, or scripture....something. Anything. There's more to life and faith than the perpetual and seemingly solution-less question of observance.

 

[big macher]

Give your Rabbi a treat, a mitzvah of kindness of sorts- ask him about something other than Torah observance. He'll probably be delighted.

Ask him about his position on Christology, or election, or justification, or sanctification, or his preferred atonement theory, or eschatology, or baptism, or the Lord's Table, or prayer, or good works, or scripture....something. Anything. There's more to life and faith than the perpetual and seemingly solution-less question of observance.

Whenever I speak with our rabbi I don't ask about Torah observance. The 'feeling' I get from him is that there are weightier matters to discuss. He's more into revival .

 

[witness of G]

Since there are no Messianic congregation in Bangkok, I attend an Evangelical Church. I contribute financially to Torah resources and to FFOZ. Personally, I am for one law.

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

A Lutheran Jew

 

[Lulav]

Me: how does your congregation specifically handle non Jewish wearing tzizit as an example?

Rabbi: "We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15). Confusing if non-Jews wear it. We do have some non-Jews who are married to Jews or who have gone through our long confirmation process, who are approved to wear a tallit. We don't have conversion but they clearly stand with Israel for a long time. It is a case by case decision of the Elders."

If tzitzit are a sign of the Jewish covenant (which was the covenant that was broken and G-d said he would make a new covenant) then why wear a sign of the old covenant?

Isn't the New Covenant a Jewish covenant as well? Wasn't it to be made with Judah and Israel? If it is not related to the old covenant why then wear a symbol of the old if it's done away with as some MJ groups seem to perpetuate?

Association of Messianic Congregations

The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

In regards to "Messianic Jewish Affiliations", is there any estimated or official figure to show how many MJ denominations there are?

Off the top of my head I can ring off a few factors which might, in different combinations, make up different denominations:

Strict Torah observant
Lenient Torah observant
Believe Paul was pro-Torah
Reject Paul
Observe Talmud in full
Observe Talmud in part
Do not observe Talmud
Accept Trinity
Do not accept Trinity
Accept "Jesus=God" theology
Believe the Creator and the messiah to be separate individuals
Observe non-Lev23 feasts
Observe ONLY Lev 23 feasts
Do not observe Lev 23 feasts
7th day traditional Sabbath (sun down to sun down).
Saturday sabbath, day-light only or 24 hour clock day.
Lunar sabbath
Enochian calendar
Believe in the Nephilim / Illuminati type conspiracy theories
Do not follow Nephilim theories or conspiracy theories
Believe in "pre Adamic" civilisation
Believe Adam was the first man
Black Hebrew and other race-related beliefs
Jew-born
Gentile-born

... And I'm sure there are many other factors.

It would be interesting to see a demographic of where "messianic synagogues" are located, with a tick-box of which of the above they ascribe to and which they don't

 

[BukiRob]

I can not speak for the MJ movement only my particular synagogue. In fairness to them, the Rabbi is a former President of the UMJC and the leadership of the congregation is mature.

I know Rabbi believes that scripture from Genesis to Revelation is the inerrant, divinely inspired word of G-d.
I know they believe scripture and reject the traditions of man.

The Talmud is NOT scripture, the commentaries when viewed properly in the clear light of scriptures can be helpful. The Talmud NEVER is on equal footing as scripture just the same as the mishna and other writing of the sages.

Sabbath is defined by scripture for us... it is the 7th day of the week. Scripture tells us when a day starts and when it ends.

Strict observance of the Torah is impossible in the diaspora. It is also impossible in the land without the Temple.

<SE>

 

[BukiRob]

Doesn't say that in the text. Who taught you this?

https://www.google.com/#q=galatians+gnosticism

Feel free to read any number of the associated links some of which are academic in orientation.

 

[Dave-W]

For the last 15 years I have been in a congregation affiliated with Tikkun. Due to an issue (or 2) with the leaders, I am now not in that congregation. But I have found a chavurah of Messianics (recognized as such by the UMJC) and we have been attending there for the last 2 months in addition to attending a goyish church.

 

[ContraMundum]

https://www.google.com/#q=galatians+gnosticism

Feel free to read any number of the associated links some of which are academic in orientation.

Most of those links don't teach a "gnostic only" approach to Galatians and also I note that most of them merely posit it as a theory. I don't think I would build a doctrine on that. I still think the most obvious is the best approach.