What's Wrong With this Picture?

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

Is our first obligation to accept and support the laws of the land, or to look at how we can help better align them with what is right? I'm not blaming one particular party, but giving blind allegiance to the country and the free market leads to war, suffering and destruction.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Is our first obligation to accept and support the laws of the land, or to look at how we can help better align them with what is right? I'm not blaming one particular party, but giving blind allegiance to the country and the free market leads to war, suffering and destruction.

I don't have any allegiance. I believe we can do better, too. I just disagree with a lot of how you think we can do it. Your mischaracterizations of what 'the other side' believes don't help, either. If a law is wrong, or immoral, we may ignore it. Pius XII did just that. And many priests and so on have supported the oppressed, and been oppressed themselves. I would not hold it against a priest, or anyone else, for treating a human being with dignity, with or without citizenship, so there you have a mischaracterization of the conservative point of view. In fact, I don't know anyone who wants to mistreat anyone-that's why nothing is being done. And I don't know that doing nothing is better. Unlike Obamacare, which I believe makes the problem of healthcare for everyone worse.

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

I'm not sure if I'm making my point very well, so I'll try again.

If you are a Catholic living in a country that has laws that go against Catholic teaching, do you have an obligation to work to change those laws?

It seems to me the answer varies depending on the law. Some are very quick to work to ensure gay marriage is illegal, but are fine with our current immigration laws. Some are very pro life and want to see that reflected in laws against abortion, but aren't nearly as motivated to work against the death penalty.

If we're not consistent, what additional motivation do we need before we work to make our country a better place? The blessings of the free market, the government, a political party or ???

 

[catholicbybirth]

I'm not sure if I'm making my point very well, so I'll try again.

If you are a Catholic living in a country that has laws that go against Catholic teaching, do you have an obligation to work to change those laws?

It seems to me the answer varies depending on the law. Some are very quick to work to ensure gay marriage is illegal, but are fine with our current immigration laws. Some are very pro life and want to see that reflected in laws against abortion, but aren't nearly as motivated to work against the death penalty.

If we're not consistent, what additional motivation do we need before we work to make our country a better place? The blessings of the free market, the government, a political party or ???

I guess what I take offense at is your equating being gay with being an illegal immigrant. Are you thinking that all those who are illegal immigrants are the only heterosexuals in the USA? Or are you thinking that no one can willfully not practice homosexuality in the same way someone can not be of the nation in which they were born?

Both of those thoughts are absurd.

I can be very consistent in not wanting gay marriage legal and not wanting to be crossing the border illegally.

Very consistent.

Janice

 

[Dusky Mouse]

What's wrong with this picture?

They're wearing dunce caps!

Wrong, is a long list.

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

I guess what I take offense at is your equating being gay with being an illegal immigrant. Are you thinking that all those who are illegal immigrants are the only heterosexuals in the USA? Or are you thinking that no one can willfully not practice homosexuality in the same way someone can not be of the nation in which they were born?

Both of those thoughts are absurd.

I can be very consistent in not wanting gay marriage legal and not wanting to be crossing the border illegally.

Very consistent.

Janice

You can, but you are only aligned with the Church on one of those issues, which is my point.

I'm not equating being gay with being an immigrant (and I honestly can't follow what you are saying above..). I'm just noticing that in some cases, it's pretty easy for people to get behind what the Church teaches, as with regard to gay marriage, but in other areas, like immigration law or just war teaching, it seems difficult for people to get behind it.

 

[catholicbybirth]

You can, but you are only aligned with the Church on one of those issues, which is my point.

I'm not equating being gay with being an immigrant (and I honestly can't follow what you are saying above..). I'm just noticing that in some cases, it's pretty easy for people to get behind what the Church teaches, as with regard to gay marriage, but in other areas, like immigration law or just war teaching, it seems difficult for people to get behind it.

So, are you saying the Church teaches that we must make it enticing for folks to cross the border illegally, which is what amnesty will do?

I always thought the Church just taught that we have to treat everyone, illegal immigrant, native born citizen, or even Islamic terrorists alike. With love and respect.

Janice

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

So, are you saying the Church teaches that we must make it enticing for folks to cross the border illegally, which is what amnesty will do?

I always thought the Church just taught that we have to treat everyone, illegal immigrant, native born citizen, or even Islamic terrorists alike. With love and respect.

Janice

MikeK posted Church writings on the issue of immigration upthread.

 

[Tallguy88]

So, are you saying the Church teaches that we must make it enticing for folks to cross the border illegally, which is what amnesty will do?

I always thought the Church just taught that we have to treat everyone, illegal immigrant, native born citizen, or even Islamic terrorists alike. With love and respect.

Janice

Is saying "throw them all in jail, all 15 million of them" treating them with love and respect? MikeK posted an article from the USCCB outlining their beliefs regarding immigration in this country.

Edit: Hockeymom beat me to it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm not sure if I'm making my point very well, so I'll try again.

If you are a Catholic living in a country that has laws that go against Catholic teaching, do you have an obligation to work to change those laws?

It seems to me the answer varies depending on the law. Some are very quick to work to ensure gay marriage is illegal, but are fine with our current immigration laws. Some are very pro life and want to see that reflected in laws against abortion, but aren't nearly as motivated to work against the death penalty.

If we're not consistent, what additional motivation do we need before we work to make our country a better place? The blessings of the free market, the government, a political party or ???

OHM, We are inconsistent. It's humanity. We're all working to be better.

For example, I believe there is a fundamental difference between abortion and putting criminals to death, although I don't think every criminal should be put to death. But there is a fundamental difference.

I don't believe that there's any comparison between so-called gay marriage and immigration reform.

I don't know about others. I don't believe we should corral illegals and ship them anywhere. They need to be treated in a dignified manner. They were given wrong information, acted on it, and now they're not in a good place. There was a thread on one of these forums about a man and a woman married, he went to war, was involved in a huge explosion, was assumed dead, but was only captured. The wife was told he was dead and in the ensuing years, she remarried and had children. One day the husband showed up. The question was, who is she rightfully married to? It's a dilemma.

The fact is that they came here in an unlawful manner. There is a consequence to acting against the law. Some, many in fact, have used these circumstances to circumvent the law. Many didn't, they just want a better life. What needs to happen is that the law needs to grow teeth. There needs to be a period after which someone who gets caught out unlawfully being here should pay a penalty. Employers should pay a price for hiring such undocumented people, too. What doesn't help is to confuse the issue. California is issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. A DL is one of those ID's that can be used for many purposes, one of which is securing voting rights. Someone who's here illegally, at a minimum, should not have the right to vote, until they demonstrate some respect for the laws of this country. This problem is hurting this country. We're, in the eyes of the world, a fat old cow that's easy to kick around, and nobody takes us very seriously. They laugh at us because of some of our attitudes. I'm married to a foreigner who waited 16 years to become a citizen, but had a permanent visa because she had investment money and a way to support herself. But I know what her ex-compatriots say about us. I can't spend much time around them...shame, too, because they're right.

 

[ebia]

... I don't think every criminal should be put to death.

Very merciful of you! :-O

 

[Sarcalogos Deus]

If the laws are written in such a way that immigrants are not welcomed into our country, then should we punish them for breaking the law? Would God support our laws as written?

I have feeling any law short of one that just says "Report that you're here and you'll get US citizenship" wouldn't satisfy you.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

What's wrong with this picture?

You do know that most of the Klan were Democrats (Dixiecrats"?
The were "Blue Dog" Democrats.

 

[Armoured]

You do know that most of the Klan were Democrats (Dixiecrats"?
The were "Blue Dog" Democrats.

What's that got to do with anything?

Oh, right, that American difficulty understanding that politics is dynamic, rather than religiously static. See also: the pervasive belief in American quarters that the USSR is still a pressing threat.

 

[MikeK]

What part of soverign nation do you not understand??? And let me ask you this: Every country, even our neighbor to the north, requires that people have a way to earn a living, so that they don't become a drain on the system.

I'm sorry you don't understand my point. Every country has immigration policy. To be followed to be allowed entry to the country. That is the way it is.

Look, we have too many social problems internally, as a government, to deal with every social problem in the world. There's a reason we're swamped with people wanting to live here permanently-it's because we're the best country on earth. Open the borders, as you want to do, and we will quickly become a third world country. Are you ready for that? Louisiana is still reeling from opening the border to the Vietnamese refugees. We need to control the rate of entry, I'm sorry. We just do. Not only is this the best country on earth, we're the most generous, though I might disagree just where that money goes.

I'll tell you what...why don't you offer 10 illegal families living space in your house, and ask everyone who wants open borders to support 10 families. Do that. Prove your sincerity. Not 10? How about 2. Provide them with medical and living expenses.

In fact, all those who feel we don't pay enough federal taxes in this country, how about listing how much extra you're going to pay on April 15? Heck, go all in...if you're going to receive a refund of your withholding, let 'em keep it.

I'm reminded of the pro-choicers who challenged me to adopt just 10 high-risk infants-juveniles and raise them. Just 10.

 

[MikeK]

You do know that most of the Klan were Democrats (Dixiecrats"?
The were "Blue Dog" Democrats.

Wouldn't it have been faster to type "I didn't read the thread?"

 

[Rhamiel]

hockeymom

If you are a Catholic living in a country that has laws that go against Catholic teaching, do you have an obligation to work to change those laws?

are you going to start working to outlaw the creation of idols?

bring back sodomy laws?

 

[ebia]

hockeymom are you going to start working to outlaw the creation of idols? bring back sodomy laws?

There's a duty to change laws that create or encourage injustice.

 

[Rhamiel]

There's a duty to change laws that create or encourage injustice.

I agree, we should change laws that encourage injustice
the creation and housing of idols encourages idol worship
is the worship of false gods right and just?
or is it right and just to give worship and praise to Jesus Christ?

 

[ebia]

I agree, we should change laws that encourage injustice the creation and housing of idols encourages idol worship is the worship of false gods right and just? or is it right and just to give worship and praise to Jesus Christ?

Is worshiping idols right? No. Is it unjust? Not really, no. Would making true religion compulsory help? Not at all.

Wrong is not the same as unjust.