What Would Jesus Think?

[Revolution81]

A Christian is a 'follower of Christ' right?
And Christ calls on his people to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless etc etc.
Some of my 'non-christian' friends are really passionate about looking after the poor etc, and some of my 'christian' friends think that it is more important to live a moral personal life (don't drink, don't swear, don't have sex before marriage, try to convert people etc etc).
Which of these do you think Jesus would be happier with?

 

[BigNorsk]

How does one split such things?

Your second list does sound like maybe your friends might be involved in pietism or even full blown legalism though. Don't drink is not necessary. That harkens back more to the Holiness movement and Prohibition than the Bible.

The Godly person leads an upright life (not that he never sins) and he loves his fellow man. It is not a one or the other, it is not one is more important. It just is. And if it isn't, then I believe he is missing the mark.

Marv

 

[ReformedChapin]

Ours works mean nothing to God if our nature is perverse. The pherasies thought that they were doing good works by killing Christ. They thought it was some heretic calling himself God. Works although important are only our byproduct of our regeneration. They will mean nothing when compared to the standard which Christ set up (perfection).

 

[cubanito]

As Marv hinted, sin is "to miss the mark." One may miss it to the left, right, up, down and probably a whole bunch other ways.

Now a question for you. Which is better, to feed a hungry man, or teach him how to earn/grow/catch his own food?

A second question for you, while exeptions occur, it turns out that there is a strong correlation between the more a person attends or identifies with a more conservative Church, the more likely, by far, that person contributes money AND time to various charities, including non-faith-based charities.

So, I ask you, why do the statistics clearly belie your personal experience?

JR

 

[Lisa0315]

As Marv hinted, sin is "to miss the mark." One may miss it to the left, right, up, down and probably a whole bunch other ways.

Now a question for you. Which is better, to feed a hungry man, or teach him how to earn/grow/catch his own food?

A second question for you, while exeptions occur, it turns out that there is a strong correlation between the more a person attends or identifies with a more conservative Church, the more likely, by far, that person contributes money AND time to various charities, including non-faith-based charities.

So, I ask you, why do the statistics clearly belie your personal experience?

JR

Please cite source for these statistics.

Lisa

 

[arunma]

A Christian is a 'follower of Christ' right?
And Christ calls on his people to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless etc etc.
Some of my 'non-christian' friends are really passionate about looking after the poor etc, and some of my 'christian' friends think that it is more important to live a moral personal life (don't drink, don't swear, don't have sex before marriage, try to convert people etc etc).
Which of these do you think Jesus would be happier with?

As has already been said, one can't separate all these good works. Good works of all varieties are essential to the believer in Jesus. One must not care for the poor and then go home to commit fornication. All of the good works you mentioned are commandments of God, except for abstinence from drinking.

But I would ask: are you sure you know your non-Christian friends as well as you think? Non-Christians, at least the ones I know, have a fine way of taking a lot about helping the poor, but in my experience they rarely lift a finger to actually do so. I know many Christians and non-Christians, and while my fellow Christians have a genuine concern for the welfare of all humanity, most non-Christians I know (even the friendly ones) worship their own belly. Talking about good works and carrying them out are two very different things.

By the way Cubanito: are you sure that sin constitutes "missing the mark?" From my understanding of the Bible, sin constitutes devaluing of an infinitely holy God, and inciting his just anger and wrath. Seems to me like far more than missing the mark. I understand that a Hebrew word for sin is a derivative of the word for "missing the mark." But I feel that this description of sin fails to account for the Biblical usage of the word.

 

[MikeMcK]

A Christian is a 'follower of Christ' right?
And Christ calls on his people to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless etc etc.
Some of my 'non-christian' friends are really passionate about looking after the poor etc, and some of my 'christian' friends think that it is more important to live a moral personal life (don't drink, don't swear, don't have sex before marriage, try to convert people etc etc).
Which of these do you think Jesus would be happier with?

Well, given that the Bible says that your non-Christian friends cannot please God with good works, I'd have to say the Christians who are striving to follow God's commands about living holy lives and presenting the Gospel to the lost.

Yes, Christians should do good works, but to do good works to the exclusion of preaching the Gospel is, in the words of the late Adrian Rogers, "just making the world a better place to go to Hell from".

 

[sethseidler]

i think that it is more important to just be a good person

 

[DeanM]

These scriptures stand out in my mind when the question of works comes up:


"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mt 7:21)

Mt 25:31-44-- At the Last Judgement, the Lord judges the sheep and the goats based on what they have done.

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. (Lk 6:45)

Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (Jn 14:23)

``For he will render to every man according to his works'' (Rm 2:6)

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)

to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. (Col 1:10)

Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called ``today,'' that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold to our first confidence firm to the end,... (Hebrews 3:13-14)

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. (1 Jn 3:23-24)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. (Rev 20:12)

 

[MikeMcK]

i think that it is more important to just be a good person

So, do you think you're a good person?

 

[Jeff1]

A Christian is a 'follower of Christ' right?
And Christ calls on his people to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless etc etc.
Some of my 'non-christian' friends are really passionate about looking after the poor etc, and some of my 'christian' friends think that it is more important to live a moral personal life (don't drink, don't swear, don't have sex before marriage, try to convert people etc etc).
Which of these do you think Jesus would be happier with?

Well, faith in Christ is more important, but if you truly love Christ, you will want to live to please him. You will want to do good deeds, convert people, help wayward believers, and defend your faith.

 

[Albion]

I figure that Christ expects us to be able to attempt all of that, so I can't go with the question as framed.

 

[BrotherDave]

I believe the works that result from a Christian’s faith are to be focused on getting the true Gospel out to the world (Mark 16:15)so others may hear and understand (Romans 10:17) if it be God’s will. Our energy, time and money should be spent in getting the gospel out. If we think we have come to faith and do not spread the word and sound the alarm we should question our salvation because faith w/o works is dead (James 2). One of the parables God used to explain this is the one about the sower. The seeds that fell on good ground sprang up and increased (Mark 4:8, Luke 8). Likewise through our work we spread the word so He can increase his kingdom (1 Corinthians 3:6,7). As we do good works our faith also strengthens (James 2:22)

This is also summed up in the “greatest” commandment of love thy neighbor as thy self (Gal 5:15). The love that Jesus displayed by doing the great work of paying the price of sin for His elect. Paul is another good example of good works, he endured persecution, abuse and God’s testing as he devoted his life to the Lord after God opened his spiritual eyes (Gal2:15).

Another example of works from great faith is the poor widow who gave all her money as a tithe (Mark 12, Luke 21). She really needed every last cent to survive but gave it all for the advancement of God’s word. This is the true measure of faith. Today there are so many other ways to spend money and time on what pleases us or what we think is the right thing to do. Even tithing to the church today has become a concern. Is the money truly used for the advancement of God’s word or is it paying a large salary or paying for beautiful windows, statues, magnificent buildings or being spent to glorify a particular domination?

Every human knows what is right and wrong (Deut 6:6, Hebrews 8:10) and has a concern for other people. As a member of the human race there are many ways to provide for the poor. People of the world can give to the Red Cross, United Way, etc…but as a Christian our good works should be focused on spiritual things.

There is nothing more important than a person’s salvation. Often in the Bible when bread is mentioned and feeding the poor, God is talking about sharing His word so others may feed on it, Christ is the bread of life (John 6:48,6:51). Like water can mean the water of the gospel, living water (John 4:14).

It is by Gods grace a person is saved, truly believes and is capable of doing good works as God strengthens us and helps us grow in grace with a focus on spiritual things. This is a christians primary objective. Things of this world will take care of themselves.

 

[desmalia]

I believe the works that result from a Christian’s faith are to be focused on getting the true Gospel out to the world (Mark 16:15)so others may hear and understand (Romans 10:17) if it be God’s will. Our energy, time and money should be spent in getting the gospel out. If we think we have come to faith and do not spread the word and sound the alarm we should question our salvation because faith w/o works is dead (James 2). One of the parables God used to explain this is the one about the sower. The seeds that fell on good ground sprang up and increased (Mark 4:8, Luke 8). Likewise through our work we spread the word so He can increase his kingdom (1 Corinthians 3:6,7). As we do good works our faith also strengthens (James 2:22)

This is also summed up in the “greatest” commandment of love thy neighbor as thy self (Gal 5:15). The love that Jesus displayed by doing the great work of paying the price of sin for His elect. Paul is another good example of good works, he endured persecution, abuse and God’s testing as he devoted his life to the Lord after God opened his spiritual eyes (Gal2:15).

Another example of works from great faith is the poor widow who gave all her money as a tithe (Mark 12, Luke 21). She really needed every last cent to survive but gave it all for the advancement of God’s word. This is the true measure of faith. Today there are so many other ways to spend money and time on what pleases us or what we think is the right thing to do. Even tithing to the church today has become a concern. Is the money truly used for the advancement of God’s word or is it paying a large salary or paying for beautiful windows, statues, magnificent buildings or being spent to glorify a particular domination?

Every human knows what is right and wrong (Deut 6:6, Hebrews 8:10) and has a concern for other people. As a member of the human race there are many ways to provide for the poor. People of the world can give to the Red Cross, United Way, etc…but as a Christian our good works should be focused on spiritual things.

There is nothing more important than a person’s salvation. Often in the Bible when bread is mentioned and feeding the poor, God is talking about sharing His word so others may feed on it, Christ is the bread of life (John 6:48,6:51). Like water can mean the water of the gospel, living water (John 4:14).

It is by Gods grace a person is saved, truly believes and is capable of doing good works as God strengthens us and helps us grow in grace with a focus on spiritual things. This is a christians primary objective. Things of this world will take care of themselves.

I agree with you about the importance of sharing the Gospel. But lets not forget how Christ Himself set the example for us. He ministered to their spiritual needs AND their physical needs. As believers, we should be ministering to both as well.

 

[cubanito]

Besides what Desmalia wrote, w which I agree, there's also Paul's admonition that we are not all expected to perform the same task in the Body. While perhaps it may not have thus been intended, what BroDave wrote would have us all be tongues.

If so, why does Paul speak so clearly against us all trying to be the same part of the body?

While I agree that evangelism, is extremely improtant, no one whose primary focus is evangelism ought think that either his, nor what he does, is the most important function of God's Body. I do agree that one should not use this as an excuse to never speak the Gospel to an unbeliever. Yet neither should those who feel the guidance of the Spirit to do so very often ought criticize those who serve God in other ways.

I do agree that there are entire denominations that have turned away from the goal of rescuing the lost spiritually, and have substituted some kind of "social gospel" or whatever. When an entire denomination does this, we are seing an entire body neglect a central function, and that is UNACCEPTABLE. We are inundated with such "christian" groups today.

However, in reacting against the error of the "social gospel" or "ecumenism at all costs" ect. we ought not go to the other extreme. Remember sin is to miss the mark, either to the left OR the right (or up, down, whatever.)

Some of us are just not much led to evangelize, and according to Paul this is the way it ought to be, so long as the local body as a whole has a balanced and diverse use of the Spiritual Gifts bestowed upon us.

JR

 

[MikeMcK]

Remember sin is to miss the mark, either to the left OR the right (or up, down, whatever.)

Actually, the Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law. To say that it is simply "missing the mark" makes it sound like making a mistake.

Some of us are just not much led to evangelize

Really? I didn't realize that the Bible gave any Christian an exemption from Christ's command to present the Gospel to the lose.

and according to Paul this is the way it ought to be

In verse...?

 

[cubanito]

1- what is a transgression if not to step outside the boundary? TRANS- beyond (like transatlantic) GRESS - journey or go (as in emiGRAtion)
transgression 1426, from O.Fr. transgression (12c.), from L.L. transgressionem (nom. transgressio) "a transgression of the law," from L. "a going over," from transgressus, pp. of transgredi "go beyond," from trans- "across" + gradi (pp. gressus) "to walk, go" (see grade). The verb transgress is recorded from 1526. Transgressor is first recorded 1377.

More important than the English, is that in both the Hebrew and Greek it derives from the same idea, to miss the mark as an archer (Hebrew) and in the Greek also used to refer to the hem of a garment, that is the edge of it.

Yes sin IS a mistake, just as an archer who tries to hit the bullseye errs when he misses it. The mistake can be intentional, that is, the transgression can be a wilfull, rebellious sin. However, it is also sin when it is well intentioned. There are many "well intentioned" sins in the Bible. Do you not think that when Saul sacrificed before Samuel got there he had bad intentions? Saul was quite sure he was doing the right thing, just as so many others who step outside God's explicit commands "for a good reason."

I contend that saying ALL members of God's body ought make evangelism their top priority, even among the top 10, is sin. It is sin because it goes against the explicit instructions of Paul. It is well meant, it is lofty sounding, and it may come from (humanly speaking) a "pure" heart. But it is still sin.

Do you think that when Peter began to admonish Christ to stop all this talk about dying that Peter was doing so for the basest of reasons? No, Peter had, by human standards, only "good intentions." Yet Peter at that moment was the adversary (satan=adversary) of God.

While not from the Bible, these are true sayings:

1- All (well, maybe most) heresy is but exageration of the Truth. and

2- The road to Hell is paved with "good intentions"

JR

 

[cubanito]

Now as to the verses, here they are w Stron numbers:
by1722 the Holy40 Ghost.4151
1Co 12:4 Now1161 there are1526 diversities1243 of gifts,5486 but1161 the3588 same846 Spirit.4151
1Co 12:5 And2532 there are1526 differences1243 of administrations,1248 but2532 the3588 same846 Lord.2962
1Co 12:6 And2532 there are1526 diversities1243 of operations,1755 but1161 it is2076 the3588 same846 God2316 which worketh1754 all3956 in1722 all.3956
1Co 12:7 But1161 the3588 manifestation5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to every man1538 to4314 profit4851 withal.
1Co 12:8 For1063 to one3739, 3303 is given1325 by1223 the3588 Spirit4151 the word3056 of wisdom;4678 to(1161) another243 the word3056 of knowledge1108 by2596 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151
1Co 12:9 To(1161) another2087 faith4102 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 to(1161) another243 the gifts5486 of healing2386 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151
1Co 12:10 To(1161) another243 the working1755 of miracles;1411 to(1161) another243 prophecy;4394 to(1161) another243 discerning1253 of spirits;4151 to(1161) another2087 divers kinds1085 of tongues;1100 to(1161) another243 the interpretation2058 of tongues:1100
1Co 12:11 But1161 all3956 these5023 worketh1754 that one1520 and2532 the3588 selfsame846 Spirit,4151 dividing1244 to every man1538 severally2398 as2531 he will.1014
1Co 12:12 For1063 as2509 the3588 body4983 is2076 one,1520 and2532 hath2192 many4183 members,3196 and1161 all3956 the3588 members3196 of that one1520 body,4983 being5607 many,4183 are2076 one1520 body:4983 so3779 also2532 is Christ.5547
1Co 12:13 For1063 by1722 one1520 Spirit4151 are we2249 all3956 baptized907 into1519 one1520 body,4983 whether1535 we be Jews2453 or1535 Gentiles,1672 whether1535 we be bond1401 or1535 free;1658 and2532 have been all3956 made to drink4222 into1519 one1520 Spirit.4151
1Co 12:14 For1063 the(2532), 3588 body4983 is2076 not3756 one1520 member,3196 but235 many.4183
1Co 12:15 If1437 the3588 foot4228 shall say,2036 Because I am1510 not3756 the hand,5495 I am1510 not3756 of1537 the3588 body;4983 is2076 it(3756) therefore3844, 5124 not3756 of1537 the3588 body?4983
1Co 12:16 And2532 if1437 the3588 ear3775 shall say,2036 Because3754 I am1510 not3756 the eye,3788 I am1510 not3756 of1537 the3588 body;4983 is2076 it(3756) therefore3844, 5124 not3756 of1537 the3588 body?4983
1Co 12:17 If1487 the3588 whole3650 body4983 were an eye,3788 where4226 were the3588 hearing?189 If1487 the whole3650 were hearing,189 where4226 were the3588 smelling?3750
1Co 12:18 But1161 now3570 hath God2316 set5087 the3588 members3196 every1538 one1520 of them846 in1722 the3588 body,4983 as2531 it hath pleased2309 him.
1Co 12:19 And1161 if1487 they were2258 all3956 one1520 member,3196 where4226 were the3588 body?4983
1Co 12:20 But1161 now3568 are they many4183 members,3196 yet1161 but one1520 body.4983
1Co 12:21 And1161 the eye3788 cannot1410, 3756 say2036 unto the3588 hand,5495 I have2192 no3756 need5532 of thee:4675 nor2228 again3825 the3588 head2776 to the3588 feet,4228 I have2192 no3756 need5532 of you.5216
1Co 12:22 Nay,235 much4183 more3123 those members3196 of the3588 body,4983 which seem1380 to be5225 more feeble,772 are2076 necessary:316
1Co 12:23 And2532 those members of the3588 body,4983 which3739 we think1380 to be1511 less honorable,820 upon these5125 we bestow4060 more abundant4055 honor;5092 and2532 our2257 uncomely809 parts have2192 more abundant4055 comeliness.2157
1Co 12:24 For1161 our2257 comely2158 parts have2192 no3756 need:5532 but235 God2316 hath tempered the body together,4786, 3588, 4983 having given1325 more abundant4055 honor5092 to that part which lacked:5302
1Co 12:25 That2443 there should be5600 no3361 schism4978 in1722 the3588 body;4983 but235 that the3588 members3196 should have the same care3309, 3588, 846 one for another.240, 5228
1Co 12:26 And2532 whether1535 one1520 member3196 suffer,3958 all3956 the3588 members3196 suffer with4841 it; or1535 one1520 member3196 be honored,1392 all3956 the3588 members3196 rejoice with4796 it.
1Co 12:27 Now1161 ye5210 are2075 the body4983 of Christ,5547 and2532 members3196 in1537 particular.3313
1Co 12:28 And2532 God2316 hath set5087 some3739, 3303 in1722 the3588 church,1577 first4412 apostles,652 secondarily1208 prophets,4396 thirdly5154 teachers,1320 after that1899 miracles,1411 then1534 gifts5486 of healings,2386 helps,484 governments,2941 diversities1085 of tongues.1100
1Co 12:29 Are(3361) all3956 apostles?652 are(3361) all3956 prophets?4396 are(3361) all3956 teachers?1320 are(3361) all3956 workers of miracles?1411
1Co 12:30 (3361) Have2192 all3956 the gifts5486 of healing?2386 do(3361) all3956 speak2980 with tongues?1100 do(3361) all3956 interpret?1329
1Co 12:31 But1161 covet earnestly2206 the3588 best2909 gifts:5486 and2532 yet2089 show1166 I unto you5213 a more excellent2596, 5236 way.3598

 

[LogosRhema]

A Christian is a 'follower of Christ' right?
And Christ calls on his people to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless etc etc.
Some of my 'non-christian' friends are really passionate about looking after the poor etc, and some of my 'christian' friends think that it is more important to live a moral personal life (don't drink, don't swear, don't have sex before marriage, try to convert people etc etc).
Which of these do you think Jesus would be happier with?

I think Christ would be happier with the person who was following their inner convictions on what He wants them to do with their life. Good and evil are the same, with neither within being good or evil can be weighed heavier than the other. Murder is just as bad as cursing. Helping the poor out being just as good as denying your flesh from drinking.

 

[cubanito]

Lastly, I made it very clear that no Christian should use the above verses as an EXCUSE not to evangelize the lost. Only that it need not be every Christian's TOP priority. That many Christians are called to exhort, teach, heal, discern, ect ect,

Yet you chose to ignore that and write: "Really? I didn't realize that the Bible gave any Christian an exemption from Christ's command to present the Gospel to the lose."

Think about this, for I believe u have trangressed beyond what I said to set up a straw man. And transgressions, even when done for the best of intentions, are still sin.

JR



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