What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

Alex Tennent

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But when it comes to other Christians' souls, I also don't see any one of those timelines changing the minds that understand and base their lives surrounding implications of 1 John 4:2 and Romans 10:9

From what I understand the start of Romans 14 is relevant to topics like this one.
Norbert I think what you gave is the over riding rule as it were. That peoples souls are most important and that even when we discuss with one another, and things may get heated, that we always remember that we do not want to injure or stumble the one for whom the Messiah died.

But having said that we do have other scriptures that speak of the importance of coming to the correct doctrine:

KJV 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

NAS Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I believe the Lord will lead His people into new truth as we yield to him and as we hold to truth when we see it. The more truth we come to, the more that will then be opened up to us:

NAS Matthew 13:12 "For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

I believe my book has made some very big discoveries (even though very few will consider it now), and one of those is that since the last supper was not the Passover, we can then look at those scriptures which show the Lord held one leavened bread, broke it, then gave it to the disciples to partake of. Knowing that this was not a new ritual he was creating, but rather that it was a parable, opens the door to seeing things the Messiah was wanting us to know. Such as how we will become the bride without spot or wrinkle. So, like many things there are two sides to the road, the side you mentioned, and the other side too. All the best to you, Alex
 
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Alex Tennent

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However, if you refuse to admit the error here then you will not understand when it comes to the many other places where the same word is rendered in error, (as it is once again in Acts 12:4).
Daq, there is a reason that I asked you to fit your belief into the Template Challenge, and there is a reason you refuse to spend five minutes and do that. When I explain something clearly, such as the after three days vs the on the third day and how they easily harmonize you act like you found some big contradiction. So as I said it becomes the "whack a mole."

But now again you are saying that meta does mean after, even though all the Greek scholars say that when it is a preposition in the Accusative (such as the Acts 12:4 verse you now bring up) that it means "after."

So what is wrong with meta meaning "after" in Acts 12:4, as per the Greek grammarians?


NAS Acts 12:4 And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people.

Here again is the UBS definition, showing the preposition with accusative here in Acts 12:4 meaning after:

meta. preposition accusative

[UBS] meta, prep. with: (1) gen. with, in company with, among; by, in; on the side of; against; (2) acc. after, behind ( meta. to, with inf. after)
 
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Hoshiyya

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But when it comes to other Christians' souls, I also don't see any one of those timelines changing the minds that understand and base their lives surrounding implications of 1 John 4:2 and Romans 10:9

Scripture says even the demons know the truth, and tremble. Knowing or admitting the truth is not enough. James tells us the true believers are known by their actions.

But I agree that theoretical things like timelines tend to not impact peoples' lives.
 
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Norbert L

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Scripture says even the demons know the truth, and tremble. Knowing or admitting the truth is not enough. James tells us the true believers are known by their actions.

But I agree that theoretical things like timelines tend to not impact peoples' lives.
Demons believe that there is one God, but here's the catch. 1 Corinthians 6:3 is very specific towards the future, but right now.... I don't see anybody here sitting on a Christian supreme court and sentencing demons and having them thrown into the lake of fire. So how should we judge our fellow Christians now?

This is getting off topic, but from what I've heard-read, antinomianism is super problematic even among groups of mainstream Christianity too. The eat, drink and be merry, as long as you just confess and believe, you're sure to be saved theology is certainly present and being presented to the world as another gospel. But from what I understand.... why shouldn't it be? Jude and 2 Peter point in that direction. It is a very real state of Christianity and in my view more so now than that of previous generations. So if the tares and false teachers aren't presently gathering among our mist right now, perhaps our Christian world view needs to be adjusted? Who really is a Christian? God will judge (1 Peter 4:17).

From what I perceive, one major difference between us and those whose word we need to believe in (John 17:20) is, today we don't have one central place of worship. Perhaps that is for a very sound reason.
 
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Norbert L

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Norbert I think what you gave is the over riding rule as it were. That peoples souls are most important and that even when we discuss with one another, and things may get heated, that we always remember that we do not want to injure or stumble the one for whom the Messiah died.

But having said that we do have other scriptures that speak of the importance of coming to the correct doctrine:

KJV 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

NAS Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I believe the Lord will lead His people into new truth as we yield to him and as we hold to truth when we see it. The more truth we come to, the more that will then be opened up to us:

NAS Matthew 13:12 "For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

I believe my book has made some very big discoveries (even though very few will consider it now), and one of those is that since the last supper was not the Passover, we can then look at those scriptures which show the Lord held one leavened bread, broke it, then gave it to the disciples to partake of. Knowing that this was not a new ritual he was creating, but rather that it was a parable, opens the door to seeing things the Messiah was wanting us to know. Such as how we will become the bride without spot or wrinkle. So, like many things there are two sides to the road, the side you mentioned, and the other side too. All the best to you, Alex

We all don't have the same IQ. Intelligence (the amount of stuff we can keep in our heads) is a gift and wisdom with what intelligence we are given is learned. I like to say "I know more than I understand". Understanding how to place the knowledge of every piece of the puzzle together as God does. However we are just mankind and I also liken it to math. Where just about everyone understands simple addition, subtraction but get into the more complicated stuff. Well not everybody is a Michael Jordan, Messi, Wayne Gretsky or dare I say Stephen Hawking of scriptural skill.
 
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daq

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Daq, there is a reason that I asked you to fit your belief into the Template Challenge, and there is a reason you refuse to spend five minutes and do that. When I explain something clearly, such as the after three days vs the on the third day and how they easily harmonize you act like you found some big contradiction. So as I said it becomes the "whack a mole."

I did spend the time to go to the link you provided to your book, I did look at the challenge and that was not even the first time I have read it, I even quoted the first three numbered questions/portions of it here in this thread and gave you my answers to them. You saying that I "refuse to spend five minutes and do that" is a false report and deliberate fabrication because I gave you the first three reasons why your challenge is based on errant assumptions that do not apply to my understanding. You then proceeded to bring up "whack a mole" and "shell game" accusations while both you and AbbaLove continue insisting that reality is not real because "three days and three nights", "after three days", "on the third day", and "in the third day" are all realistic when speaking in calendar terms of the same points in time and therefore, (according to the two of you) those statements are all correct understandings of the passages concerned. I'll tell you what; I will be back here to respond again after three times, Elohim willing, so be ready against the third time, for in the third time will I return. See if you can hold me to my word when I do not show up on the third time. ^_^ ;)
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AbbaLove

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Can you not see that you have written 4 days?
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
HaDerekh you will never arrive at the truth using false, reverse, Roman Catholic logic.

What confuses many is that a Hebrew/Jewish day occurs over *two western days. The following shows that the "Good Friday" scenario is flawed as it does not satisfy all relevant scripture passages being: "on the third day." "three days and three nights" and "after three days"

Friday afternoon on Nisan 14 occurred in 30 CE and 33 CE
*
6 hrs remaining of Thursday (6pm-12am) and 18 hrs into Friday (12am-6pm)

6th Day from Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
Daylight = 3-4 hrs on remaining daylight when Yeshua died
Considered Day One

7th Day from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Two

1st day from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm
Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = at daybreak when Yeshua arose.
Considered Day Three (2 1/8 Days)

The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE.

Thursday afternoon on Nisan 14 occurred in 27 CE
*6 hrs remaining of Wednesday and 18 hrs into Thursday
Counting the elapsed time of days beginning at the 6th Day to +11 hrs into the 1st day
is Two and one half days = "on the third day"

5th Day Nisan 14 from Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm
Daylight = 3-4 hrs on remaining daylight when Yeshua died
Considered Day One

6th Day Nisan 15
from Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
(first day of Unleavened Bread)
1st Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Two

7th day Nisan 16
from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
(second day of Unleavened Bread)
2nd Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Three

1st day Nisan 17 from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm
(third day of Unleavened Bread)
3rd Nighttime = +11 hrs into nightime when Yeshua arose just before daybreak
Considered Day Four (3 1/2 Days) = "after three days" and "three days and three nights" )

Counting the elapsed Days beginning on the first day to Unleavened Bread on Nisan 15 to
the third day of Unleavend Bread on Nisan 17 is First Fruits "on the third day"
 
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Alex Tennent

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You saying that I "refuse to spend five minutes and do that" is a false report and deliberate fabrication because I gave you the first three reasons why your challenge is based on errant assumptions that do not apply to my understanding.
I am not trying to give a false report, the Template Challenge has ten scriptural time key events to fit into the template of the Jewish feast. I believe you did two or three, and that is not answering the challenge. But it's a free country so no worry if you choose not too. It's just that this study is so difficult in many ways that I found putting ones belief on paper helps them to see if their belief can fit those time key events.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Counting the elapsed Days beginning on the first day to Unleavened Bread on Nisan 15 to
the third day of Unleavend Bread on Nisan 17 is First Fruits "on the third day"

Very interesting point AbbaLove! The resurrection was "on the third day" of the Feast that year.

Also, just as a point of discussion, you wrote:

The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE.

When I researched that I came to the belief that Yeshua was born on 3bc (as you say, because of calendar miscalculation when Rome did that calendar. I also came to the belief that the crucifixion was in the year 30, thus making the Messiah 33 1/2 at his death. I believe he started his ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), and had a 3 1/2 year ministry.

The other reason I thought 30AD was the year is that it seems to fit best from a typology point of view. This gives 40 years to the day until the Temple was attacked by Rome at Passover, 70AD. The number 40 is often used for major things, the 40 days and nights it rained on Noah's ark, 40 years Israel in the wilderness, and 40 day warning to Nineveh by Jonah. So if that is correct then Israel was given 40 years, then Rome attacked.

When I looked for when the full moons occurred in those various years, for the Passover, there were various days, usually saying Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. We do know that they can be a day off on various months if there are clouds in the sky so the new moon cannot be seen. My Aish Luach Hebrew calendar software shows the 14th of Nisan occurring on Wednesday in year 27AD and also in 30AD, but as I say it could easily be a day off. I just mention that in case you have additional thoughts on this.
 
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daq

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I'll tell you what; I will be back here to respond again after three times, Elohim willing, so be ready against the third time, for in the third time will I return. See if you can hold me to my word when I do not show up on the third time. ^_^ ;)

The first time:

What confuses many is that a Hebrew/Jewish day occurs over *two western days. The following shows that the "Good Friday" scenario is flawed as it does not satisfy all relevant scripture passages being: "on the third day." "three days and three nights" and "after three days"

Friday afternoon on Nisan 14 occurred in 30 CE and 33 CE
*
6 hrs remaining of Thursday (6pm-12am) and 18 hrs into Friday (12am-6pm)

6th Day from Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
Daylight = 3-4 hrs on remaining daylight when Yeshua died
Considered Day One

7th Day from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Two

1st day from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm
Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = at daybreak when Yeshua arose.
Considered Day Three (2 1/8 Days)

The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE.

Thursday afternoon on Nisan 14 occurred in 27 CE
*6 hrs remaining of Wednesday and 18 hrs into Thursday
Counting the elapsed time of days beginning at the 6th Day to +11 hrs into the 1st day
is Two and one half days = "on the third day"

5th Day Nisan 14 from Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm
Daylight = 3-4 hrs on remaining daylight when Yeshua died
Considered Day One

6th Day Nisan 15
from Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
(first day of Unleavened Bread)
1st Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Two

7th day Nisan 16
from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
(second day of Unleavened Bread)
2nd Nighttime = 12 hrs
Daylight = 12 hrs
Considered Day Three

1st day Nisan 17 from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm
(third day of Unleavened Bread)
3rd Nighttime = +11 hrs into nightime when Yeshua arose just before daybreak
Considered Day Four (3 1/2 Days) = "after three days" and "three days and three nights" )

Counting the elapsed Days beginning on the first day to Unleavened Bread on Nisan 15 to
the third day of Unleavend Bread on Nisan 17 is First Fruits "on the third day"

The second time:

I am not trying to give a false report, the Template Challenge has ten scriptural time key events to fit into the template of the Jewish feast. I believe you did two or three, and that is not answering the challenge. But it's a free country so no worry if you choose not too. It's just that this study is so difficult in many ways that I found putting ones belief on paper helps them to see if their belief can fit those time key events.

The third time:

Very interesting point AbbaLove! The resurrection was "on the third day" of the Feast that year.

Also, just as a point of discussion, you wrote:

The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE.

When I researched that I came to the belief that Yeshua was born on 3bc (as you say, because of calendar miscalculation when Rome did that calendar. I also came to the belief that the crucifixion was in the year 30, thus making the Messiah 33 1/2 at his death. I believe he started his ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), and had a 3 1/2 year ministry.

The other reason I thought 30AD was the year is that it seems to fit best from a typology point of view. This gives 40 years to the day until the Temple was attacked by Rome at Passover, 70AD. The number 40 is often used for major things, the 40 days and nights it rained on Noah's ark, 40 years Israel in the wilderness, and 40 day warning to Nineveh by Jonah. So if that is correct then Israel was given 40 years, then Rome attacked.

When I looked for when the full moons occurred in those various years, for the Passover, there were various days, usually saying Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. We do know that they can be a day off on various months if there are clouds in the sky so the new moon cannot be seen. My Aish Luach Hebrew calendar software shows the 14th of Nisan occurring on Wednesday in year 27AD and also in 30AD, but as I say it could easily be a day off. I just mention that in case you have additional thoughts on this.

AFTER THREE TIMES:

Hi Alex, :)
As anyone may plainly see this is the fourth post since my previous post and clearly cannot be the third; yet this post fulfills exactly what I said, that is, that I would post again AFTER THREE TIMES which is no different than saying AFTER THREE DAYS when speaking in terms of calendar calculations. The terms "after three days" and "in/on the third day" are absolutely contradictory and cannot mean the same thing in terms of times or days. :)
.
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Alex Tennent

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Hi Alex, :)
As anyone may plainly see this is the fourth post since my previous post and clearly cannot be the third; yet this post fulfills exactly what I said, that is, that I would post again AFTER THREE TIMES which is no different than saying AFTER THREE DAYS when speaking in terms of calendar calculations. The terms "after three days" and "in/on the third day" are absolutely contradictory and cannot mean the same thing in terms of times or days. :)

Daq, your logic does hold for the statement you made, but what if you had also said "on the third day." If you were the Lord, then we would have to find how you could of said things two seemingly different ways, and somehow both are still true. Often times there are revelations involved.

There has been a big controversy for many years on the Book of John saying that Yeshua was being condemned at the sixth hour:

KJV John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Commentators say how can Jesus possibly be there before Pilate and the Chief Priests about the sixth hour when he was on the cross on the third hour?

Some say it was a scribal error, but the manuscript evidence makes it very clear that this is the correct rendering from the Greek. I believe I found the answer, and it can be found on page 468 (and following), in the chapter "Between the Evenings; the Legal Time to Sacrifice the Passover" and can be found here:
http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdf
I decided to add this quick edit for those too busy to follow that link, so in a very brief nutshell, according to the Talmud, the sixth hour was the time in which one had to have their Passover selected, on this 14th day, because the sixth hour was the legal time one could begin the Passover sacrifice proceedings, and also the time in which all leaven had to be removed by. So John was simply alluding to the true Passover being selected by the legal time (also, the Greek words "about the" can also mean "as it were" the sixth hour).

And back to the Greek, it is not our job to force the Greek words from scripture out of their meanings, otherwise I could answer your argument the same way you answer mine. I could say "ha ha, see, how can "after three days" possibly mean the same as "on the third day?" And then I could take the Greek for "on the third day" and break the laws of Greek Grammar and proper bible interpretation and say "I always take "on" to mean "after" in these contexts," even if it contradicts Greek Grammar.

It's not our job to tell the Messiah what he meant, but to try to discern what he meant using all the proper rules of the Greek Grammar in which he spoke, also using proper logic, and the fact scripture says he almost always spoke in parables (and dark sayings).

Since the rules for Greek Grammar clearly say meta means "after" in the context of Mark 8:31, because there it is in the Accusative case (not Genitive), and there are no Greek variants on this verse, then we need to try and find out how he meant this, and how it also fits with "on the third day" without shoehorning "on the third day" as my pretend argument above. :

NAS Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

meta. preposition accusative

[UBS] meta, prep. with: (1) gen. with, in company with, among; by, in; on the side of; against; (2) acc. after, behind ( meta. to, with inf. after)

There are a few options. As I said before, since these statements were spoken over a 3 1/2 year period, to different people, in possibly different contexts, that could be part of it. Saying "on the third day" when your reference point is the day after the crucifixion, then that would fit. Looking forward from the crucifixion day, Friday would be the first day from it, Saturday the second, and Sunday would be "on the third day."

Or, if there was some kind of a revelation involved, such as my sixth hour example above, then the point AbbaLove brought up I think is excellent, and something I had not seen before. If Yeshua was wanting to give them a revelation that he was the true First Fruits offering, the First Fruit of the resurrection, then saying "on the third day" would be a perfect way to say that, and his words would be totally correct. He resurrected "on the third day" of the seven day Feast, which this year was Sunday, the day he resurrected. Just like Yeshua does not ever say "I am the true Passover" but he does allude to it. And John does not say Jesus was the Passover, but he alludes to it (not a bone of his broken).

Another interesting point I just noticed is the the Greek article translated "on" in the four "on the third day" raise up scriptures, is not really the Greek word for on, as you can see "on" is not in the definition below:

th/| definite article dative feminine singular

[UBS] o`, h`, to, pl. oi`, ai`, ta, the; this, that; he, she, it; tou/ with inf. in order that, so that, with the result that, that

Greek scholar William Mounce says that when the article in Greek is in the Dative case is has the primary meaning of "to," (the first meaning given above). And according to Daniel Wallace's excellent Greek work Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics when it is a "Dative of reference" he adds: "Instead of the word to, supply the phrase "with reference to."

That being true, when the Messiah speaks of his resurrection, and that he would be raised "on the third day" it is very possible AbbaLove's revelation is in view here, where the focus of his statement was on alluding to fulfilling the First Fruits:

NAS Matthew 20:19 and will deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up."

He was resurrected and raised up (as our First Fruits offering) with reference to the third day of the Feast, which was the day the priest waived the First Fruits offering that year (first day of the week, third day of the Festival). Either way, one of the two options I have given here could answer what meant when he said these Greek words, the scriptures all harmonize as he meant them.
 
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It's not our job to tell the Messiah what he meant, but to try to discern what he meant using all the proper rules of the Greek Grammar in which he spoke, also using proper logic, and the fact scripture says he almost always spoke in parables (and dark sayings).
Just one question...how in the world can Yeshua even speak in Greek grammar when He is Jewish, and therefore spoke in Hebrew? And secondly, a little point regarding the parables. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, parables are not riddles or mysterious stories that only a few elites can get, but rather, an illustration of using the known to connect it to the unknown. So when Yeshua spoke in parables, he was trying to get his disciples and all that listened to Him to connect to the Hebrew scriptures and teachings in a new way, not making his teachings so difficult to understand that only His followers could get it.
 
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daq

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Daq, your logic does hold for the statement you made, but what if you had also said "on the third day." If you were the Lord, then we would have to find how you could of said things two seemingly different ways, and somehow both are still true. Often times there are revelations involved.

There has been a big controversy for many years on the Book of John saying that Yeshua was being condemned at the sixth hour:

KJV John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Commentators say how can Jesus possibly be there before Pilate and the Chief Priests about the sixth hour when he was on the cross on the third hour?

Some say it was a scribal error, but the manuscript evidence makes it very clear that this is the correct rendering from the Greek. I believe I found the answer, and it can be found on page 468 (and following), in the chapter "Between the Evenings; the Legal Time to Sacrifice the Passover" and can be found here:
http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdf

It is not our job to force the Greek words from scripture out of their meanings, otherwise I could answer your argument the same way you answer mine. I could say "ha ha, see, how can "after three days" possibly mean the same as "on the third day?" And then I could take the Greek for "on the third day" and break the laws of Greek Grammar and proper bible interpretation and say "I always take "on" to mean "after" in these contexts," even if it contradicts Greek Grammar.

It's not our job to tell the Messiah what he meant, but to try to discern what he meant using all the proper rules of the Greek Grammar in which he spoke, also using proper logic, and the fact scripture says he almost always spoke in parables (and dark sayings).

Since the rules for Greek Grammar clearly say meta means "after" in the context of Mark 8:31, because there it is in the Accusative case (not Genitive), and there are no Greek variants on this verse, then we need to try and find out how he meant this, and how it also fits with "on the third day" without shoehorning "on the third day" as my pretend argument above. :

NAS Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

meta. preposition accusative

[UBS] meta, prep. with: (1) gen. with, in company with, among; by, in; on the side of; against; (2) acc. after, behind ( meta. to, with inf. after)

There are a few options. As I said before, since these statements were spoken over a 3 1/2 year period, to different people, in possibly different contexts, that could be part of it. Saying "on the third day" when your reference point is the day after the crucifixion, then that would fit. Looking forward from the crucifixion day, Friday would be the first day from it, Saturday the second, and Sunday would be "on the third day."

Or, if there was some kind of a revelation involved, such as my sixth hour example above, then the point AbbaLove brought up I think is excellent, and something I had not seen before. If Yeshua was wanting to give them a revelation that he was the true First Fruits offering, the First Fruit of the resurrection, then saying "on the third day" would be a perfect way to say that, and his words would be totally correct. He resurrected "on the third day" of the seven day Feast, which this year was Sunday, the day he resurrected. Just like Yeshua does not ever say "I am the true Passover" but he does allude to it. And John does not say Jesus was the Passover, but he alludes to it (not a bone of his broken).

Another interesting point I just noticed is the the Greek article translated "on" in the four "on the third day" raise up scriptures, is not really the Greek word for on, as you can see "on" is not in the definition below:

th/| definite article dative feminine singular

[UBS] o`, h`, to, pl. oi`, ai`, ta, the; this, that; he, she, it; tou/ with inf. in order that, so that, with the result that, that

Greek scholar William Mounce says that when the article in Greek is in the Dative case is has the primary meaning of "to," (the first meaning given above). And according to Daniel Wallace's excellent Greek work Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics when it is a "Dative of reference" he adds: "Instead of the word to, supply the phrase "with reference to."

That being true, when the Messiah speaks of his resurrection, and that he would be raised "on the third day" it is very possible AbbaLove's revelation is in view here, where the focus of his statement was on alluding to fulfilling the First Fruits:

NAS Matthew 20:19 and will deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up."

He was resurrected and raised up (as our First Fruits offering) with reference to the third day of the Feast, which was the day the priest waived the First Fruits offering that year (first day of the week, third day of the Festival). Either way, one of the two options I have given here could answer what meant when he said these Greek words, the scriptures all harmonize as he meant them.

Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after with-amid three days rise again.

So we simply agree to disagree then. :)

However, concerning your mention of the crucifixion at about the sixth hour, (I have not yet read your link) have you also taken into account the fact that Messiah bears his own stake in the same passage from the Gospel of John? In the synoptic accounts it is Simon Kurenaion who bears the post for Yeshua.
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Hoshiyya

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So how should we judge our fellow Christians now?

We shouldn't SENTENCE them, or judge them in court on religious grounds, I agree.

But you underlined "now" to apparently indicate a time element, while for me, your use of the word "judge" as a negative thing is more relevant.

Every time I go to sit on a chair, I judge that it can support my weight, that doesn't mean I have "judged it to hell."
I also judge that 2+2=4, nothing controversial about that. Admitting/speaking the truth, and sentencing someone, are two completely separate things.

My original point was only this: Satan believes that Yeshua is the Messiah, but his faith does not save him, for he does not serve the Messiah.

Satan is actually a better example than demons, but I initially said demons because of the well known verse about knowing the truth and trembling.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Just one question...how in the world can Yeshua even speak in Greek grammar when He is Jewish, and therefore spoke in Hebrew? And secondly, a little point regarding the parables. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, parables are not riddles or mysterious stories that only a few elites can get, but rather, an illustration of using the known to connect it to the unknown. So when Yeshua spoke in parables, he was trying to get his disciples and all that listened to Him to connect to the Hebrew scriptures and teachings in a new way, not making his teachings so difficult to understand that only His followers could get it.

Sistr, just because you were told Jesus only spoke in Hebrew does not mean it was true. Greek was clearly the language of the day. The Jews even referred to their holy gathering places using a Greek word "synagogue." The Jewish prophet John the Baptist was called by a Greek name "baptist." Most of the scriptures quoted from the OT into the NT came from the Greek Septuagint (the Greek trans. of the OT) which was the common bible they used. The idea that these Jews only spoke in Hebrew is not even close to true (as per my few examples above, and there are lots more).

And on your assertion that I believe parables are only for the elite, is also far from true, because it's not what I believe and I never said that. Contrary to what you said, Yeshua often spoke in parables and many times even his closest disciples did not understand what he was meaning:

NAS Matthew 15:15 And Peter answered and said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."

NAS Luke 8:9 And His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable might be.

Mark 9:31-32 31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." 32 But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.

Often times the Lord wants us to seek him for deeper meaning, when deeper meaning is meant.
 
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Alex Tennent

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However, concerning your mention of the crucifixion at about the sixth hour, (I have not yet read your link) have you also taken into account the fact that Messiah bears his own stake in the same passage from the Gospel of John? In the synoptic accounts it is Simon Kurenaion who bears the post for Yeshua.
Daq I am not sure if I understand your point, but are you saying this is another contradiction? The way I have always taken this is that the Messiah took his stake for as long as he could, but being with sleep and suffering beatings and whippings he could not go on, and they forced Simon to carry it. Are you seeing this differently?
 
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Daq I am not sure if I understand your point, but are you saying this is another contradiction? The way I have always taken this is that the Messiah took his stake for as long as he could, but being with sleep and suffering beatings and whippings he could not go on, and they forced Simon to carry it. Are you seeing this differently?

Note very carefully how I worded what I said.
In the way in which I worded it, no, it is not a contradiction imo. :)
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AbbaLove

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The resurrection was "on the third day" of the Feast that year.
Isn't that what you believe is a possibility with respect to "on the third day" in 27 CE when Nisan 14 occurred on the 5th Day of the week ... being Wednesday 6pm to 12an and Thursday 12am to 6pm (sunset to sunset)
http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y27M1

Also, just as a point of discussion, you wrote:
"The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE."

When I researched that I came to the belief that Yeshua was born on 3bc (as you say, because of calendar miscalculation when Rome did that calendar. I also came to the belief that the crucifixion was in the year 30, thus making the Messiah 33 1/2 at his death. I believe he started his ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), and had a 3 1/2 year ministry.
The only part we differ on is arriving at the year of Herod's death. Do you come up with a different date than 4 BC? Yeshua (ImmannuEL) had to be born about 2-3 years before the death of Herod the Great.

The other reason I thought 30AD was the year is that it seems to fit best from a typology point of view. This gives 40 years to the day until the Temple was attacked by Rome at Passover, 70AD. The number 40 is often used for major things, the 40 days and nights it rained on Noah's ark, 40 years Israel in the wilderness, and 40 day warning to Nineveh by Jonah. So if that is correct then Israel was given 40 years, then Rome attacked.
The implication then is that Herod didn't die until 1 BC instead of 4 BC. Have you uncovered any substantial proof for 1 BC? Or is 1 BC choosen just to make 30AD a more reasonable date for those so inclined?

We do know that they can be a day off on various months if there are clouds in the sky so the new moon cannot be seen. My Aish Luach Hebrew calendar software shows the 14th of Nisan occurring on Wednesday in year 27AD and also in 30AD, but as I say it could easily be a day off. I just mention that in case you have additional thoughts on this.
NASA's recent calculations are based new moons, star calculations, etc ... not affected by atmospheric haze or clouds. However, because of how the Hebrews figured the barley (abib) harvest and adding Adar II every few years it's unlikely that even NASA can account for the passing of each Jewish year for the past 2000 years. What is rather interesting is that the Torah Creation Calendar had the year 6000 occurrng in 2015. So there is over 200 years (223) difference between NASA's calculations and the Jewish calendar (5776) for Apr 23-24 Sa‑Su (Spiritual New Year), Apr 25-28M‑Th, Apr 29-30 F‑Sa.

How does your Aish Luach Hebrew calendar compare with the Hebcal calendar *dates shown below? Are they the identical?

Using the Hebcal Date Converter ( www.hebcal.com/ ) for Nisan 14 from 27 AD/CE to 36 AD there are the following for Nisan 14 occurring on either a Wednesday or Friday. Using this Hebcal calendar Nisan 14 never occurred on a Thursday from 27 AD to 36 AD. Again, these dates could be off after 70 AD as the dispersed Rabbinic Jews (former Pharisees) by more than a day as they didn't have any way to track the barley (abib) harvest in the prime Jericho agriculture region which ripens first. According to the Hebcal calendar the 1st of Adar II went into effect on March 11 with the Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread running from April 22 (Erev Pesach) to April 30 (Pesach VIII). The 1st day of the year 5777 is Oct 3-4.

*are these dates the same as your Aish Luach Hebrew calendar?
3787 = Wed, April 7, 27 AD
3790 = Wed, April 3, 30 AD
3793 = Fri, April 1, 33 AD
3796 = Fri, March 28, 36 AD​

The Torah Creation Calendar (http://torahcalendar.com/) shows the following five possibilities for Nisan 14 occurring from 26 CE to 34 CE on either a Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. Again, these dates could be off by more than a day when the actual Hebrew year 6000 may be 112 years away 6000 - 5777 = 223 / 2 = 112 years. Or just maybe NASA's calculations are only off by a few years. What does your spiritual gut instinct say other than His return is closer than ever ?

Friday 26 AD/CE
Thurs, 27 AD/CE
Friday 30 AD/CE
Friday 33 AD/CE
Wedn, 34 AD/CE
 
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Alex Tennent

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Note very carefully how I worded what I said.
In the way in which I worded it, no, it is not a contradiction imo. :)
I see, so I guess you are agreeing with the sixth hour explanation, and that sometimes scriptures that appear to contradict may instead be adding additional truth? That was a very good example you bring there, thank you.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Isn't that what you believe is a possibility with respect to "on the third day" in 27 CE when Nisan 14 occurred on the 5th Day of the week ... being Wednesday 6pm to 12an and Thursday 12am to 6pm (sunset to sunset)
http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y27M1


"The above timeline only satisfies the verse "on the third day." Also, some erroneously propose that Herod the Great actually died in 1 BCE, instead of 4 BCE. This is done because it is generally agreed that ImmanuEl was born about 2-3 years before Herod died. Thus, they choose Nisan 14 occurring on a Friday in 30 CE, instead of Nisan 14 on a Thursday in 27 CE."

The only part we differ on is arriving at the year of Herod's death. Do you come up with a different date than 4 BC? Yeshua (ImmannuEL) had to be born about 2-3 years before the death of Herod the Great.

The implication then is that Herod didn't die until 1 BC instead of 4 BC. Have you uncovered any substantial proof for 1 BC? Or is 1 BC choosen just to make 30AD a more reasonable date for those so inclined?

NASA's recent calculations are based new moons, star calculations, etc ... not affected by atmospheric haze or clouds. However, because of how the Hebrews figured the barley (abib) harvest and adding Adar II every few years it's unlikely that even NASA can account for the passing of each Jewish year for the past 2000 years. What is rather interesting is that the Torah Creation Calendar had the year 6000 occurrng in 2015. So there is over 200 years (223) difference between NASA's calculations and the Jewish calendar (5776) for Apr 23-24 Sa‑Su (Spiritual New Year), Apr 25-28M‑Th, Apr 29-30 F‑Sa.

How does your Aish Luach Hebrew calendar compare with the Hebcal calendar *dates shown below? Are they the identical?

Using the Hebcal Date Converter ( www.hebcal.com/ ) for Nisan 14 from 27 AD/CE to 36 AD there are the following for Nisan 14 occurring on either a Wednesday or Friday. Using this Hebcal calendar Nisan 14 never occurred on a Thursday from 27 AD to 36 AD. Again, these dates could be off after 70 AD as the dispersed Rabbinic Jews (former Pharisees) by more than a day as they didn't have any way to track the barley (abib) harvest in the prime Jericho agriculture region which ripens first. According to the Hebcal calendar the 1st of Adar II went into effect on March 11 with the Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread running from April 22 (Erev Pesach) to April 30 (Pesach VIII). The 1st day of the year 5777 is Oct 3-4.

*are these dates the same as your Aish Luach Hebrew calendar?
3787 = Wed, April 7, 27 AD
3790 = Wed, April 3, 30 AD
3793 = Fri, April 1, 33 AD
3796 = Fri, March 28, 36 AD​

The Torah Creation Calendar (http://torahcalendar.com/) shows the following five possibilities for Nisan 14 occurring from 26 CE to 34 CE on either a Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. Again, these dates could be off by more than a day when the actual Hebrew year 6000 may be 112 years away 6000 - 5777 = 223 / 2 = 112 years. Or just maybe NASA's calculations are only off by a few years. What does your spiritual gut instinct say other than His return is closer than ever ?

Friday 26 AD/CE
Thurs, 27 AD/CE
Friday 30 AD/CE
Friday 33 AD/CE
Wedn, 34 AD/CE
On your first question yes, I do believe that "on the third day" arising may refer to this First Fruits offering.

As for Yeshua's birth, I came up with approximately September 4BC for various reasons when I did research this. This is necessary for him to be 33 1/2 at his death on Nisan 14 in 30 AD (when one takes into account the "zero" year between 1BC and 1AD).

And you wrote:

NASA's recent calculations are based new moons, star calculations, etc ... not affected by atmospheric haze or clouds. However, because of how the Hebrews figured the barley (abib) harvest and adding Adar II every few years it's unlikely that even NASA can account for the passing of each Jewish year for the past 2000 years. What is rather interesting is that the Torah Creation Calendar had the year 6000 occurrng in 2015. (end quote)

But for them in their day they only used the sighting of the new moon, and if it was obscured than their 14th day may be at variance with what NASA says (I think you agree on this point, but was just making sure)

You wrote:

are these dates the same as your Aish Luach Hebrew calendar?
3787 = Wed, April 7, 27 AD
3790 = Wed, April 3, 30 AD
3793 = Fri, April 1, 33 AD
3796 = Fri, March 28, 36 AD (end quote)

No, what Aish says for the 14th day (erev pesach) is :

3787 = Wed April 9, 27 AD
3790 = Wed, April 5, 30AD
3793 = Fri, April 3, 33AD
3796 = Fri, March 30, 36AD

My memory is not the best, but when I did research this I remember that one difference that often comes up was that when Hillel did the calendar (after the Temple was destroyed and they could not go out to see the new moon) they had a certain rule where adjustments were made to certain Sabbath days would not occur two days in a row. Just going by memory, I remember proving that during the time of Yeshua they did not follow that rule. So that may be another reason why certain projections are a day or two off.

I do believe that NASA's calculations are accurate, and that the incredible solar system God made can be logically made to go backwards and give accurate dates, but I still feel that for the reasons I gave things could have been off by a day either way, as it was the Sanhedrin that decided when the 14th day was, using the best and most accurate way they could at that time (by viewing the new moon).

You wrote:

What does your spiritual gut instinct say other than His return is closer than ever ? (end quote)

I really don't think we are 200 years off, but I have not studied that Jewish calendar reckoning difference all out. My gut is that too many things are happening now that say the time is not 200 years away (such as the technology for the mark of the beast being in place, the war on eliminating cash, the final Beast system building out rapidly, etc...).

What is your gut on it AbbaLove?!
 
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