What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yeshua says this concerning Yochanan the Immerser:

Matthew 11:7-15 ASV
7 And as these went their way, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to behold? a reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out to see? a man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they that wear soft raiment are in kings' houses.
9 But wherefore went ye out? to see a prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
10 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, [Exodus 23:20a LXX] Who shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not arisen a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Point #1) Matthew 11:10b, "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face", is a direct word for word quote lifted straight from the Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a:

Matthew 11:10 W/H
10 ουτος εστιν περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου


Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Old Greek)
20 και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι


Show me one commentator who even recognizes this fact even though some of them do acknowledge the fact that μου (me/mine) and σου (you/your) are exchanged when compared to Malachi 3:1, (the quote does not match and yet they all still insist that this is a quote from Malachi 3:1 while ignoring Exodus 23:20!). According to the Testimony of Yeshua recorded here, by "Matthew", Yeshua is saying that Yochanan the Immerser is the Malak of Exodus 23:20. Do you accept and believe this Daniel Gregg? Do you take the Testimony of Messiah Yeshua literally? I do, and it completely changes everything in your doctrine when you first come to understand this and begin to realize how messed up your thinking really is. I hope you do indeed come to this point somewhere in your own walk but it will not be easy seeing that you will have to forfeit most of what you think you now know.
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You might find this Eastern Orthodox Icon of Yochanan interesting...

https://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/17c_russia_jtb-with-life.jpg
 
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Alex Tennent

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Usage is also against rendering Luke 22:7 as "Comes the day of unleavened bread"

I thought it might be a dative of reference for a while, but when I saw that the usage was "on the day..." universally, I abandoned it.
Hello Daniel,
If you had read that chapter to see what I believe you would not assume I think the Greek means "comes the day." I list a few different possibilities and one of them is that it connects to the previous verse:

NAS Luke 22:6 And he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the multitude.
NAS Luke 22:7 Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

You can see this proof on page 423 in the book, and in my next post to you I will explain why Luke 22:7 cannot possibly mean that the day to sacrifice the Passover had come that day of the last supper, and that the Luke 22:7 verse is a bad translation of what the Greek says in this context. Here is that section from page 423 that shows just one other option for translating Luke 22:7 that still has the Messiah crucified on the 14th day, in which the Passovers were sacrificed:

One Additional Possibility for Luke 22:7

Another possibility for Luke’s intended meaning in 22:7 is as follows. The Greek word translated as “Then” (in “Then came”) can just as easily be translated “And,” making it “And came.” The BDAG Greek-English Lexicon shows that this Greek word connects two clauses and thus can be translated as “now, then, and, so,” etc.[1] Adding to this, since this Greek word Hlthen (translated as “came” in English) is in the third person, it can mean he, she, or “it came.”

The following scripture from Acts contains an example of this exact same Greek word translated into English as “it came”:


NAS Acts 11:5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me,

Therefore, when we use the BDAG Lexicon’s accepted meanings in Luke 22:7 and if we connect this with the previous verse (6), we see that Judas is seeking a good opportunity to betray Jesus (“And it came”):

NAS Luke 22:6 And he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the multitude.

Luke 22:7 And it came the day of unleavened on which the Passover had to be sacrificed.

So in this perfectly acceptable Greek translation option, Luke shows how Judas was seeking a good opportunity to betray Jesus, “And it came” on the very day it was necessary to sacrifice the Passover (i.e., in the first half of this 14th day—the night period). In this option, Luke subtly connects Christ’s betrayal to the Passover sacrifice. Whether we translate this as “And it came” or “Then it came,” either way could fit this option and still have the same meaning. This is not to say that Greek is totally plug-and-play, where one can take any definition found in any Greek language lexicon and directly apply it, because each context is important and other considerations must be taken into account. But in this case, “And it came” is a totally acceptable translation of what Luke wrote.

Going from one language to another often presents difficulties, and as we’ve seen, many Greek words have nuances that do not always precisely translate to a single English word. In an English translation of Luke 22:7, a real difference can exist between “Then” and “And.” “Then it happened” would indicate a fixed time aspect, whereas “And it happened” could be more open-ended, not necessarily meaning it happened right then before the next thing mentioned. Similarly, if someone wrote, “Sally was joyful, and she got married,” a slightly different meaning could be read into these words than if it said, “Sally was joyful; then she got married,” implying that perhaps her attitude changed after the marriage. So when we examine English translations, we must always keep these nuances, however slight, in mind.




[1] Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd ed., p. 213.
 
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Alex Tennent

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You can see this proof on page 423 in the book, and in my next post to you I will explain why Luke 22:7 cannot possibly mean that the day to sacrifice the Passover had come that day of the last supper, and that the Luke 22:7 verse is a bad translation of what the Greek says in this context.

Why the English translation of Luke 22:7 cannot mean what it seems to say:

NAS Luke 22:7 Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

For one thing, this would have the last supper be the eating of the Passover and would therefore have the Messiah being crucified the following 15th day, which God commanded as a holy Sabbath that was strictly kept by the Jewish nation (even in Jerusalem today this is kept).

This was no problem to Roman theologians, because they did not concern themselves with the Jewish details. But the Jews did not crucify people on this holy 15th day Sabbath (in fact, they are rushing to get them off the crosses before this 15th day arrives), and the day after the last supper was not kept as a Sabbath, so we know the last supper could not have been the Passover. The chief priests and others would never pick up clubs and torches (after having eaten the Passover and now into the 15th day Sabbath rest) then leave their homes and those gathered for Passover to go out and arrest Jesus. That is a total falsification of Jewish history, they were extremely careful to keep these Sabbaths. The high ranking members of the Sanhedrin are even pictured carrying things on this day, both Joseph, and Nicodemus (100 pounds of Myrrh, John 19:39). They would never do such things on the Sabbath. The chapter link further below shows all the things that were done that would never be done on a Sabbath day, it lists over 50 such reasons the last supper was not the Passover.

Some scholars have attempted to harmonize the bad translation of Luke 22:7 with the true Passover as seen the day of the crucifixion (John 18:28) to show a Passover being kept two days in a row. However this was totally against God’s law, where the Passover was to be sacrificed only on the 14th day (never two days in a row). Some try to say that the last supper was a practice Passover, as if after 1400 years of Passovers the Jews still needed practice. And maybe that’s true, because since they say they are eating “bread” at the last supper, it clearly shows they needed practice, had that been a Passover (like Paul said, I speak as a fool). This also has God’s timing off, for by His foreknowledge He commanded this 14th day to Moses, knowing the exact time and day His son would be crucified, (Christ our Passover, not Christ our day late Passover).

There is not one shred of evidence that in Jerusalem they held practice Passovers one day early, or two days in a row. Not in the Talmud or any other Jewish history. Scholars cannot just create things out of thin air by saying them. For instance, if I say “The Pharisees held weekly tennis tournaments with the Sadducees, and Jesus was often the judge, and with the Pharisees often loosing this was the true cause of their animosity towards Yeshua.” But me saying this does not make it true. If there is not a single bit of history or any proof that can be offered you cannot just say something and count it as fact to support your belief.

The facts are that the way Luke 22:7 was translated supports the long believed tradition that the last supper was the Passover, but it was a bad translation when all the facts are considered (same with Matthew 26:17, and Mark 14:12). For more proofs that the day following the last supper was not the 15th day Sabbath, but the day following the crucifixion was the 15th day Sabbath, see this chapter below:

http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_50-Reasons.pdf
 
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daq

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You might find this Eastern Orthodox Icon of Yochanan interesting...

https://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/17c_russia_jtb-with-life.jpg

Nice, :) the measure of a man who is a messenger is 144, (Revelation 21:17), for the messengers have the testimony of the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles of the Lamb, (12x12=144). The same are raised from the dead, and are isangeloi, as Messiah confirms when he calls forth Lazarus from the tomb of the cave and calls him by the name, Lazare, which is the only place that this short form is used, (John 11:43, λαζαρε, gematria 144). And from Matthew 11:14, which was previously quoted, Yeshua does not say that Yochanan is Eliyahu who was to come but rather that he is Eliyahu who is about to come. Why would the Master say this when Yochanan was already shut up in the prison of Herod? At the close of his prophecy Yochanan says, "He that testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly! Amen! Come, Master Yeshua", because he is not only the witness but the forerunner messenger of Messiah. But seeing this part is not really on topic I will try to leave off it here. :)
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AbbaLove

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The facts are that the way Luke 22:7 was translated supports the long believed tradition that the last supper was the Passover, but it was a bad translation when all the facts are considered (same with Matthew 26:17, and Mark 14:12).
Messianics find these verses confusing. All three imply that at the time of Yeshua the first day of unleavened food (bread) ushered in the Passover. Is there really any consensus as to why the original Greek was so mistranslated?

Are you possibly suggesting that the original Greek from which the following verses were translated was itself a misrepresentation of the actual facts of that time? Is it at all possible that the first day of unleavened food (bread) also ushered in the sacrifice of the passover lamb later that same day at the time of Yeshua?

Is there any way one can prove that these scrptures were not representative that the day of unleavened food (bread) also occurred on Passover (Nisan 14), during the Temple period at the time of Yeshua?

YLT Luke 22:7
And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
YLT Matthew 26:17
And on the first [day] of the unleavened food came the disciples near to Jesus, saying to him, `Where wilt thou [that] we may prepare for thee to eat the passover?'
YLT Mark 14:12
And the first day of the unleavened food, when they were killing the passover, his disciples say to him, `Where wilt thou, [that,] having gone, we may prepare, that thou mayest eat the passover?'

The obvious question would seem to be: How could scholars sooooo mistranslate the Greek when the first day of unleavened bread susposedly didn't begin until Nisan 15, at the time of Yeshua?
 
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Alex Tennent

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Messianics find these verses confusing. All three imply that at the time of Yeshua the first day of unleavened food (bread) ushered in the Passover. Is there really any consensus as to why the original Greek was so mistranslated?

Are you possibly suggesting that the original Greek from which the following verses were translated was itself a misrepresentation of the actual facts of that time? Is it at all possible that the first day of unleavened food (bread) also ushered in the sacrifice of the passover lamb later that same day at the time of Yeshua?

Is there any way one can prove that these scrptures were not representative that the day of unleavened food (bread) also occurred on Passover (Nisan 14), during the Temple period at the time of Yeshua?

YLT Luke 22:7
And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
YLT Matthew 26:17
And on the first [day] of the unleavened food came the disciples near to Jesus, saying to him, `Where wilt thou [that] we may prepare for thee to eat the passover?'
YLT Mark 14:12
And the first day of the unleavened food, when they were killing the passover, his disciples say to him, `Where wilt thou, [that,] having gone, we may prepare, that thou mayest eat the passover?'

The obvious question would seem to be: How could scholars sooooo mistranslate the Greek when the first day of unleavened bread susposedly didn't begin until Nisan 15, at the time of Yeshua?


Hello AbbaLove,

Those are some excellent questions and the answer has many twists and turns over hundreds of years. It’s not just Messianics that find those verses confusing---I went to a standard bible college and we debated these same verses in the Grad class, and we could not harmonize them. It basically comes down to how could the Messiah slay the Passover one day, eat it with his disciples at the last supper, then be the fulfillment of the Passover the following day (when John 18:28 shows the Jews being careful to stay clean so they could “eat the Passover”).

After 20 years of chasing this down, believing that the scriptures were anointed by God and would not contradict, I finally found the answer that brings it all together, and aligns with the Jewish laws of how this Festival was kept.

There are so many complexities, one of which you mention is the seven days of unleavened “bread”(“bread” was not in the Hebrew or Greek when discussing this Feast, it was Matzah or Azumos). Josephus says there were eight days of unleavened, which is true since they did not eat unleavened bread on the day of the Passover sacrifice (as Daniel mentioned, leaven had to be destroyed by 11:00am on this 14th day). This was from the scripture where God said to not have any leaven (on hand) with the slaying of the Passover. That’s why Luke 22:7 can link the “day of unleavened” to the day in which the Passover was sacrificed (the 14th day). Although the actual Feast was seven days of unleavened bread (15th – 21st), this 14th day came to be an eighth day of sorts, so like many things, there were two ways of looking at it.

Most Christians (including my early teaching) do not focus on any of the “Jewish details,” feeling that the Old Testament is past, so why learn any of that (this is changing of late though). So the contradiction of Jesus eating “bread” at the Passover, and being sacrificed the next day on the major Sabbath day (the 15th day) was really no big problem to them, as that was the Old Testament details. I am just trying to answer why these verses came down to us in our day showing a false picture. There was also the Roman history (see my chapter on the Jewish Disconnect), where the Jewish understanding of the Messiah being crucified on the 14th day was rejected (they were mocked and called “fourteenthers” or in Latin “Quartodecimans”), and this caused Rome to excommunicate all the Jewish believers as “heretics” and worse. Thus, the accepted belief became that the Messiah ate the Passover at the last supper, and was then crucified on Good Friday, and “Easter” Sunday became the new focus and the 14th day Passover remembrance was rejected.

When you are brought up with a certain set of “facts” (that the last supper was for sure the Passover), as a commentator you want to argue for what you are sure is true in the bible (it doesn’t mean they were all bad guys pushing lies). And any time you are translating from one language to another there are nuances and idioms that do not always carry over well. The scriptures you mention are perfect examples of this. If you are certain the last supper was the Passover, then you would naturally translate those verses a certain way.

To answer your question on whether the Greek in those scriptures was also translated as a misrepresentation, I would say no, that the original Greek is very accurate. I believe that God protected the scriptures He anointed, and although there are some scribal errors, only a very small percentage have any real doctrinal significance. And there is also the protection that comes from having the various manuscript families. In other words, copies of the scriptures that went into Egypt may not have the same temptation to change a word or two to support a certain doctrine as the manuscripts in Rome, and vise versa. So when there is a rare word that does not line up, by comparing the various manuscripts you can usually get the sense of what was added, and what was original. Bruce Metzger’s “A textual commentary of the Greek New Testament” does a pretty good job of rating the different manuscript differences on any verse that has one, and this can be really helpful.

The verses you mention are all pretty good in the Greek, it’s only in the English where they were (I believe) accidentally mistranslated (starting in the 1500’s or so).

To see how they should have been translated this chapter goes into that:

http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Greek-Keys.pdf

All the best AbbaLove!
 
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Daniel Gregg

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If you are suggesting that Exodus 12:15 is speaking of the fifteenth

On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses (ESV).
howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses (JPS).

No one has any business trying to fix the Synoptic Problem (Mat. 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7) until they can first show how this problem is fixed in Exodus. See also Exodus 12:18-19. No, I am not giving you the answer. I'm asking you to acknowledge the problem first.

What does "On the first day" mean, Nisan 14 or Nisan 15?
If you say it means Nisan 15, then you contradict Exodus 12:18-19 and the the practice of all Jews everywhere to remove it on the 14th.
If you say it means Nisan 14, then why not just say that "on the first day" means the same thing in the Evangelists?

Whatever answer you give you have to justify it from Hebrew for Exodus 12:15 and from Greek for the Evangelists.


According to the Testimony of Yeshua recorded here, by "Matthew", Yeshua is saying that Yochanan the Immerser is the Malak of Exodus 23:20.

Like John also says "the one who they have pierced" vs. Zech 12:10, "me whom they have pierced". Your argument appears to be based on the assumption that if a quote does not match word for word its source then it must not be quoted from the traditional source. That's a fallacy.

This is something you SHOULD know presuming to be a teacher.

Point #2) "All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan."

I really don't see the problem here. I might see one with your interpretation when you tell me what you think it means.
 
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daq

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On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses (ESV).
howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses (JPS).

No one has any business trying to fix the Synoptic Problem (Mat. 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7) until they can first show how this problem is fixed in Exodus. See also Exodus 12:18-19. No, I am not giving you the answer. I'm asking you to acknowledge the problem first.
What does "On the first day" mean, Nisan 14 or Nisan 15?

You asked me that question, (essentially), and I already answered you.

If you say it means Nisan 15, then you contradict Exodus 12:18-19 and the the practice of all Jews everywhere to remove it on the 14th.

I clearly said the same thing already on the previous page: please go back a reread.

Your argument appears to be based on the assumption that if a quote does not match word for word its source then it must not be quoted from the traditional source. That's a fallacy.

The quote from Malachi 3:1 does not match while the quote from Exodus 23:20a is a perfect match word for word from the Septuagint. Ignoring that fact is your fallacy, not mine.

This is something you SHOULD know presuming to be a teacher.

In my long experience in forum board antics it is always those who fancy themselves great teachers who call me out as claiming to be a teacher when their own teachings are questioned and compared with scripture. And that is generally because they have no answer when their own teachings do not line up with scripture: then they turn and seek an alternative way to silence the one whom they perceive as an enemy in opposition to their teachings. You friend are no different from the norm: do you see me posting links to my own web page in almost every thread where I enter? No, that would be you. Is TorahTimes not your web site? You even went so far in one place as to boast that Brian Huie had learned some of his teachings from you: quite convenient for you wouldn't you say? seeing that he is now gone home and is not here to affirm or deny what you say? In addition, O teacher, when you post links to your web page with your teachings in an open forum you are putting your own teachings on trial. If you do not want that then why do you do what you do? Do you suppose I have no right to question your teachings, O teacher? :sorry:
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Alex Tennent

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On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses (ESV).
howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses (JPS).

No one has any business trying to fix the Synoptic Problem (Mat. 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7) until they can first show how this problem is fixed in Exodus. See also Exodus 12:18-19. No, I am not giving you the answer. I'm asking you to acknowledge the problem first.

The Talmud actually does a good job of answering the problem of Exodus 12:15, and how this fits in with the New Testament scriptures can be found in this chapter, starting on page 379:

http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Template-Challenge.pdf


Here below Is a portion from that chapter:

Josephus likewise refers to this whole festival as having eight[1] days of unleavened.[2]

Luke also aligns, showing that the 14th day (when the Passovers were sacrificed) was considered one of the eight unleavened days:

DBY Luke 22:7And the day of unleavened bread came, in which the passover was to be killed.[3]

Mark, too, makes it clear that the 14th day (when the Passover was sacrificed) was the first of these eight days of unleavened:

NASMark 14:12 And on[4] the firstdayof Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?”

***

In both Hebrew and Greek, the word “first” can also be translated as “previous.” The Talmud makes it clear that when God called the 14th day the “first” day (Exodus 12:15, the day to remove the leaven), He did not mean the first of the seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, for if you waited until the 15th day to remove the leaven you would have already broken the law to have no leaven during the seven-day Festival. Therefore the obvious way to understand “first” here is “previous”—the day preceding the Feast (i.e., the 14th day):


GEMARA: We see thus, that at the commencement of the sixth hour, all agree, Chometz[5] must be burned. Whence do we adduce this? Said Abayi: From two passages, viz. [Exod. xii. 19]: “Seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses,” and [ibid. 15]: “But on the first day ye shall have put away leaven out of your houses.” According to this, then, on the first day there would still be leaven in the house and this would be contrary to the ordinance of the first passage? Hence we must say, that by “the first day” is meant the day preceding the festival. Then why say the sixth hour? Say that already early in the morning of the day preceding the festival (leaven should be burned). The word “but” with which the passage commences divides the day into two parts, so that in the morning leavened bread may be eaten while in the afternoon it must not.[6]

They continue by explaining that Exodus 34:25 is God’s directive of why leaven had to be removed by noon of the 14th day (called the “first” day):

The disciples of R. Ishmael taught: The reason that Chometz must be removed on the 14th (of Nissan) (the eve of Passover) is because that day is referred to as the first day (of the festival) in the passage [Exod. xii. 18]: “In the first, on the fourteenth day of the month, at evening shall ye eat unleavened bread,” etc.

Rabha said: “The reason may be inferred from the passage [Exod. xxxiv. 25]: ‘Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall be left unto the morning the sacrifice of the feast of the passover,’ which signifies, that the Passover sacrifice must not be offered up as long as there is yet leaven.” If that be the case, then it might be said that the leaven should be burned by each man immediately before offering his passover sacrifice; why designate the sixth hour? The passage means to state, that when the time for the Passover sacrifice arrives, there must no longer be any leaven on hand.[7]

And now a quote from early church writer and Fourteenther Clement of Alexandria (ca. AD 150 to ca. AD 215), where he describes how the disciples asked their question of Jesus on the 13th day:

From the Last Work on the Passover, quoted in the Paschal Chronicle:

Accordingly, in the years gone by, Jesus went to eat the Passover sacrificed by the Jews, keeping the feast. But when he had preached He who was the Passover, the Lamb of God, led as a sheep to the slaughter, presently taught His disciples the mystery of the type on the thirteenth day, on which also they inquired, “Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?” It was on this day, then, that both the consecration of the unleavened bread and the preparation for the feast took place. Whence John naturally describes the disciples as already previously prepared to have their feet washed by the Lord. And on the following day our Saviour suffered, He who was the Passover, propitiously sacrificed by the Jews.

Clement continues, and shows that Christ suffered on th 14th day:

Suitably, therefore, to the fourteenth day, on which He also suffered, in the morning, the chief priests and the scribes, who brought Him to Pilate, did not enter the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might freely eat the passover in the evening. With this precise determination of the days both the whole Scriptures agree, and the Gospels harmonize. The resurrection also attests it. He certainly rose on the third day, which fell on the first day of the weeks of harvest, on which the law prescribed that the priest should offer up the sheaf.[8]

John also makes it clear that the disciples came to Jesus on the 13th day when he shows that the day after the disciples asked their question was the Crucifixion (the 14th day). We know this because on this Crucifixion day the Jewish guards were concerned with the purification required so they could eat the Passover:

NAS John 18:28 They led Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium in order that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.

[1] Some say that Josephus is referring to the rabbinic custom of adding a second day to certain festival high Sabbath days (thus making eight days for Passover), but this is not accurate. Although scripture proclaimed one day for the Festival Sabbaths, later history shows that (probably after Rome destroyed the Temple) the rabbis proclaimed that those in the Diaspora were to keep certain Festival holy days for two days. This was to avoid desecrating the Sabbath, for those in outlying areas would have no way of knowing which day had been determined by the Sanhedrin as the first of the month (i.e., the new moon, which was always either 29 or 30 days after the previous new moon). Therefore they might not have known which was the 15th-day Sabbath of Passover, so an additional day was to be kept by those in distant locations. However, an extra day was never added in Jerusalem while the Temple existed, so it has no bearing on this Last Supper controversy. Rather, Josephus is counting the 14th day together with the seven-day Festival, which makes eight unleavened days.

[2] Whiston, The New Complete Works of Josephus, “Jewish Antiquities,” 2.15.1, p. 107.

[3] Although Luke 22:7 is another scripture that seems to show that the disciples asked this question on the 14th day, it is another of the scriptures that will be correctly interpreted in the chapter “The Three Major Greek Keys That Unlock the Gospels.”

[4] The Greek word translated as “on” here is also a dative of reference and should have been translated as “with reference to” or “concerning.” See “The Three Major Greek Keys That Unlock the Gospels” chapter for more on this.


[5] “Chometz” refers to that which is fermented or leavened.

[6] Babylonian Talmud, Book 3, Tract Pesachim, ch. 1, p. 19, http://sacred-texts.com/jud/t03/psc05.htm.

[7] Babylonian Talmud, Book 3, Tract Pesachim, ch. 1, pp. 19–20, http://sacred-texts.com/jud/t03/psc05.htm.

[8] Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 581.
 
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Daniel Gregg

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The quote from Malachi 3:1 does not match while the quote from Exodus 23:20a is a perfect match word for word from the Septuagint. Ignoring that fact is your fallacy, not mine.

Mat 11:10 = Exo. 23:20 ? Nope. Context contradiction. Ex. 23:21-23 is not talking about John.

Ex 20:23 angel = messenger = Malak YHWH = pre-incarnate Messiah
Ex 23:20 you = Israel.

Mat 11:10 messenger = John
Mat 11:10 your face (ESV) = Messiah
Mat 11:10 thy face (KJV) = Messiah

Mal 3:1a messenger = John
Mal 3:1a me = Messiah = Adonai
Mal 3:1b messenger of the covenant = Messiah.
 
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Daniel Gregg

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The Talmud actually does a good job of answering the problem of Exodus 12:15


Yes, Jewish tradition says that the first day in Ex. 12:15 means the day before unleavened bread. But you were arguing a dative of reference in the Evangelists. So which is it? A dative of reference or Jewish tradition. If you say dative of reference then that does not work in Ex. 12:15. If you say Jewish tradition in Exodus 12:15 that does not explain why it says first day does it?

The tradition is correct in saying it means the day before, but the interpretation has to be justified by the text. Reading ביום הראשׁון as first day won't do it. A dative of reference won't do it either.
 
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daq

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Mat 11:10 = Exo. 23:20 ? Nope. Context contradiction. Ex. 23:21-23 is not talking about John.

Ex 20:23 angel = messenger = Malak YHWH = pre-incarnate Messiah
Ex 23:20 you = Israel.

Mat 11:10 messenger = John
Mat 11:10 your face (ESV) = Messiah
Mat 11:10 thy face (KJV) = Messiah

Mal 3:1a messenger = John
Mal 3:1a me = Messiah = Adonai
Mal 3:1b messenger of the covenant = Messiah.

Apparently you live in a world where "it is true" simply because you say so.
.
.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Yes, Jewish tradition says that the first day in Ex. 12:15 means the day before unleavened bread. But you were arguing a dative of reference in the Evangelists. So which is it? A dative of reference or Jewish tradition. If you say dative of reference then that does not work in Ex. 12:15. If you say Jewish tradition in Exodus 12:15 that does not explain why it says first day does it?

The tradition is correct in saying it means the day before, but the interpretation has to be justified by the text. Reading ביום הראשׁון as first day won't do it. A dative of reference won't do it either.

Daniel I'm not sure if I understand your point, as Exodus and the Evangelists are completely different scriptures. Yes, there is no dative of reference in Exodus 12:15, but that has no bearing on whether there is a dative of reference in the gospels (Matt. 26:17 and Mark 14:12). But it sounds like we agree that the writers of the Talmud were correct in how they explain Exodus 12:15, so our only difference is on the gospel translations, such as Mark below:


NAS Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?"

The reason I believe it is a clear example of dative of reference in Greek is because if Mark was really meaning they were then "on" this 14th day, the Messiah would have been slain the day after the Passover. And this would have Christ as our day late Passover, and it would have God by His foreknowledge being off by one day in what He comanded to Moses.

Then, we would have the day of the crucifixion happening on this holy 15th day Sabbath, and reverent Jewish people (including men on the Sanhedrin like Nicodumus) breaking the Sabbath left and right by carrying 100 pounds of myrrh, torches and clubs to arrest Yeshua, etc. And as mentioned before this would have them all eating "bread" (artos) supposedly at the Passover.

So using the acceptable rules for Greek Grammar and that this is a dtaive of reference, the verse should not read "on" the day, but "with reference to the day," such as this below:

And with reference to the first day of unleavened (which comes tomorrow, when the Passover is being sacrificed) His disciples said to him "where do you want us to prepare..."

The first half of the verse is addressing us the readers, Mark is telling us why the disciples came asking their question to Yeshua, and showing that it was because of their concern to find a location and make it ceremonially ready to partake of Passover, which they assumed they would all be doing the next evening, at the end of the 14th day.

From the time of Rome this was rather looked at as "prepare the big Passover meal," because the Roman theologians did not understand the Jewish preparations involved in getting everything ready and a location that was ceremonially clean for them to partake of the Passover together (nor did Rome care to understand those details). So the disciples were not saying "where do you want us to prepare fixins for Passover tonight" but they were saying with reference to the soon coming day of unleavened, and all that is required to have ready (ritually and naturally) where (what location) do you want us to prepare and make ready.

The Messiah was very clear that he would not be there to eat that Passover (though he greatly desired to, Luke 22:15, 16). He also had just recently told them he would be killed at this Passover (Matthew 26:2), so he knew he would not be there to eat it. So here the disciples are on the 13th day and there is no direction yet from Yeshua as to where they would all be together, so the disciples summon up courage and go ask him. But their question relates to all that is required and connected to this 14th day when the Passovers will be sacrificed, and all that still needed to be prepared and made ready. They were not able to bear that he would really not be there with them, they still assume they will all be together for the Passover that next evening.
All the best,
Alex
 
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Daniel Gregg

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Daniel I'm not sure if I understand your point, as Exodus and the Evangelists are completely different scriptures. Yes, there is no dative of reference in Exodus 12:15, but that has no bearing on whether there is a dative of reference in the gospels (Matt. 26:17 and Mark 14:12).


It does because both translations say "first day" and yet it is agree that it was not the first day of the feast. Same problem. The solutions are the same also.
 
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Alex Tennent

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It does because both translations say "first day" and yet it is agree that it was not the first day of the feast. Same problem. The solutions are the same also.
Sorry I'm so late in seeing your comment Daniel, but I do not believe these are the same problem at all. Two different languages, one problem stems from a Hebrew nuance, the other stems from a Greek nuance. It is true, and also amazing, that they are a very similar problem, especially being two different languages and a few thousand years apart, but they stem from two totally different languages and roots. As I said in the previous post, the Talmud does a very good job of correctly explaining Exodus 12:15, and my book does a very good job of discovering the correct way Luke 22:7 needed to be translated, as a dative of reference: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Greek-Keys.pdf
 
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