What if you can't love your enemies?

[oi_antz]

I have much to say about this but 1) my comment would probably get deleted as it has on other threads 2) you guys would just go around or not answer them and 3) if you do answer them there wont be a straight answer given from anyones personal, free thought but here it goes.

My belifes are not challenged by this on any level rather i feel your rationality to what is being said right before your that you try to twist into something good and holy. I mean have you ever taken a step back and thought about this? and are you sure about that "yes i have" that you tell yourself?

Since this topic is about loving your enemies it seems not to be to far off topic or more of loving your creations which you seem to hate and punish excesivley because you made them imperfect. As for seeing things 1) through gods perspective what does that mean exactly his hypocrisy in not practicing what he preachs? his blatant hate for some humans and love for others for irrational reasons? and 2) can you define biblical love after reading the bible from cover to cover? because after reading it myself im quite confused as to what you mean

I said that to MishSill, but you have said some things about me here that I am concerned about. I will pm you about this, thanks.

 

[fat wee robin]

My father was a bitter, hateful man who recently died. He professed Christ and lived as if he never even heard of Him much less ever met the Christ. For a long time, especially in the last days and weeks of his life, I struggled with praying for him. Time after time, he was told and shown the Love of God and still he refused to listen. Time after time he would be called on his crap and he would cry then before the tears were dry, would return to doing the exact same things as if no one had ever said a word. Then, one day, I realized why I was having so much trouble praying for him. It wasn't that I wanted harm to come to him, I had forgiven long long ago, rather, it was because I was unable to separate him from his sin.

My point in sharing that with you is that until Christ separates us from our sins by clothing us with the new man, God can't separate us from our sins either. When God says He hates sin, that sin is detestable to Him, the question we have to ask ourselves is, "what does He see when He looks upon us?" Does He see our sin, a sin that He hates, a sin that detestable, or does He see the righteousness of Christ? Sure He hated Esau's sin and Loved Esau enough to desire that He live in righteousness that would allow Him to fellowship with him, but the truth of the whole thing is this, Esau would not separate himself from his sin and therefore, God saw sin when He looked upon Esau.

Go back to the OT to see this idea further. Why was the animal sacrifice so important? Because blood was necessary for covering over the sins so that God could fellowship and look upon the people. Since Love and hate are NOT opposites, they can reside side by side. It is only if they were opposites that this would be a quandary to work out, but the opposite of Love is pride, not hate and so there is not contradiction in understanding that God both Loved Esau and hated him. This is an important concept for people to figure out if they hope to understand how to Love an enemy. And yes, it begins with forgiving, but that is only the beginning.

This is well explained and helpful .It is very painful to Watch someone you love
persist in their 'bad bahaviour' ,but if Inside they would really like to change but just can't ,only God knows how much they tried ;often this sort of behaviour is tied into
'survival' early childhoodn christians do not do enough to help people get to the 'bottom' ,or 'root' of their problem ,and insist on religious methods only .Even if Jesus is the only way to eternal life ,helping people to understand why they 'sin'

is paramount .

 

[Chicken Little]

This is one sad thread.

Can you explain what is holy or just about what he has done or said here? this does not even scratch the surface of the things he has done to us humans

God doesn't hate anyone.
He hates what man created . what you have created and what owns you and those entities of destruction and pride that you/men/ mankind will allow to drag your fanny to hell.
His enemy has only ever been the Death that men created by their own free wheels in that space between their right ear and left ear.

He already died for you ! he came as fully a man to turn death inside out to overcome it .. what else must a God do to prove he loves you ? there is no bigger sacrifice and nothing more real than that.
So you are all creating what will own you and take you to hell.
He only ever hates the death and hell men created and he overcame it so all who want to leave behind can by their trust him .
But man special friend called Death and the hell it was create in.. is his only enemy. not you .
this is what he hates and what he has overcome.
he has not overcome you or your will , because he doesn't hate he hates the ignorance and pride and all that and the entities of death, separation and usurping that you bring into the world , because of what it will do to you and what it has already done to others in your life.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Ezekiel 18:31-32New King James Version (NKJV)
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the LordGod. “Therefore turn and live!”

 

[razzelflabben]

I have much to say about this but 1) my comment would probably get deleted as it has on other threads 2) you guys would just go around or not answer them and 3) if you do answer them there wont be a straight answer given from anyones personal, free thought but here it goes.

give me a try, start a private chat with me and find out. Oh, but don't just claim I'm not a free thinker because we have different conclusions on the matter, they are not one and the same.

Not long ago, I had this question presented on a forum and the poster insisted on discussing it even though it was off topic. End result, that poster never accepted that understanding involved seeing through a different perspective, which is like common everyday stuff when they ran out of arguments they thought sounded wise, instead of thinking for themselves, they resorted to name calling and false accusations. If you are open to think for yourself and not just what you have been taught to believe, and if you are willing to apply everyday communication rules to the topic at hand, and if you are willing to discuss the topic, not just try to shame me into agreeing with everything you say, which is how these discussions usually go, by all means start a conversation with me, I would love, and I mean that sincerely, I would love to have someone really challenge the truths I have found through study. So far, all anyone has offered is inflammatory insults without objective criticisms of the arguments presented....maybe...you will be the exception to the rule? (I'm hopeful, but run into enough people that I am also doubtful. Just being painfully honest here)

My belifes are not challenged by this on any level rather i feel your rationality to what is being said right before your that you try to twist into something good and holy. I mean have you ever taken a step back and thought about this? and are you sure about that "yes i have" that you tell yourself?

well, personally, I have stepped back and thought a lot about it. In fact, one of the things that made the other posters angry was that I have come to the conclusion that based on all the information available to us, we do not have enough information to judge "fairly" the matter, that the best we can do is try to understand both sides of the issue and in that, decide whether or not we are going to trust God on the matter, or trust ourselves. IOW's I make no judgment of whether it was right or wrong, none at all, all I do is present both sides as accurately as I can through a careful study of the accounts. Judgement is left for any individual and hopefully that individual will understand both sides before making that judgment call, cause frankly, that is the only fair and right way to judge anything, to understand both sides and from that, decide which side you hold to be truth. Sounds like you aren't willing to do that yet, I'm praying you soften your heart to be able to, given that I am looking for serious challenge to my understanding and not just some rhetorical, inflammatory arguments of "my way or your stupid and not thinking for yourself"

Since this topic is about loving your enemies it seems not to be to far off topic or more of loving your creations which you seem to hate and punish excesivley because you made them imperfect.

I am pretty harsh about this staying on topic issue because one time I followed the line of discussion and was reported and warned for being off topic, even got points for it. I get that that sounds nutty, but I have even been warned for accepting another persons apology, so I try to be very careful not to violate forum rules at all, as crazy as that sounds. I guess that is the price of people using reporting to escape arguments that they can't win....sad but true...none the less, I am seriously looking for true challenge to my understanding, so private chat or another thread dedicated to it would be cool by me, at least if you drop the venom and actually talk about the topic.

As for seeing things 1) through gods perspective what does that mean exactly his hypocrisy in not practicing what he preachs? his blatant hate for some humans and love for others for irrational reasons?

this is some of that venom I was talking about...from God's perspective, iow's what scripture says He was doing from what He understood about the situation, He was showing Love. Now like I have said dozens and dozens of times before, understanding this perspective doesn't mean you agree with it. Just like if you put forth some effort to understand my perspective doesn't mean you agree with that perspective, it just means you understand how I could think/feel/act, the way I do. I am currently writing a series of murder mysteries, the series doesn't work at all if you can't see why the murderer would do what he does nor the detective would do what they do. You have to build a character understanding for the book to hold your interest so that you are able to identify with the characters. Now, identifying with the characters, something that happens every time you read a book or watch a movie or TV program doesn't mean you agree with that character or will do things they same way they do, what it means is that you can begin to grasp why things happened the way you are being told they happened. Likewise, scripture gives us enough details to grasp God's perspective, doesn't mean we have to agree with that perspective or accept it as good, or even do things the same way, we all have our own perspective, but understanding God's perspective gives us a way of putting ourselves in His situation and comprehending why things when the way they did...just like in any good story, we begin to relate to the characters and begin to see things through their eyes, not just our own. If you can try to do this, I would love the challenge to our understanding of God's perspective, as to agreeing or disagreeing, that is as individual as you and I are.

and 2) can you define biblical love after reading the bible from cover to cover? because after reading it myself im quite confused as to what you mean

the best definition I have for Biblical Love is....putting another above yourself in an act of humility, creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration. I have an entire chapter of passage references with directed connections if you want, but would take up quite a few posts here.

To add a bit of clarity though....the world tells us to look out for number one, to put ourselves and our own interests above the interests of others, this is contrary to what real Love tells us to do. Real Love or Biblical Love as you would know it by, is to put the best interests of others ahead of our own. How we think a good parent does with their children would be a good example (not bad parents here, but the ideal parent)

This is an act of humility...CS Lewis says that humility is not thinking less of yourself but rather thinking of yourself less...this is a very good definition. In order to do more than just go through the motions of helping others, it requires that we change our focus from ourselves to others. We have to have an outward focus not an inward one for Biblical Love to exist.

Creating a covenant...if you go to the characteristics of Love in I Cor. 13, the first characteristic listed is Love is patient, if you love down the list, we are told that Love always perseveres...this is a lasting thing. We taught this concept to a youth group one time using this....we took a poster, covered it with small tiny little sticky bricks. Then we explained while asking two or three kids to walk up to the poster, remove a brick, put the brick on a sheet on the table, then return for another one. As they were doing this, we talked about every time we get hurt, we build walls around ourselves, to protect us from further hurt. Love removes that wall little by little. As we Love, with a true, unfailing Love, the wall comes down little by little. This is why Love is patient, why Love always perseveres, because it takes time to tear down the walls that we have built up by all the non Love we have known in our lives. By the time we were finished explaining, the wall was only about 1/2 to 1/3 of the way removed. Covenant is about staying power, not giving up, staying the course, promising with a promise that is serious, to Love for as long as that Love is needed.

And now, for the purpose of Love, the goal of Love....Biblical Love absolutely has a goal and that goal is to set things right, to make it as though the pain and hurt caused is reconciled. In biblical terms, it is to restore us to our original image, the image of God, a God that is said to be Love (again, deals with the above discussion I would love to have with someone who is willing to think enough for themselves to discuss and challenge not just attack and belittle)

Any other questions about Biblical Love, have about 7 years of 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week study and/or teaching/counseling biblical Love, so not a problem to talk more about it, just ask.

Oh, and as I previously said, since the core of Love is humility, the opposite of Love is pride, self centeredness, not hate. Hate is an emotion only, Love is emotion, attitude, action, and more...

 

[razzelflabben]

This is well explained and helpful .It is very painful to Watch someone you love
persist in their 'bad bahaviour' ,but if Inside they would really like to change but just can't ,only God knows how much they tried ;often this sort of behaviour is tied into
'survival' early childhoodn christians do not do enough to help people get to the 'bottom' ,or 'root' of their problem ,and insist on religious methods only .Even if Jesus is the only way to eternal life ,helping people to understand why they 'sin'

is paramount .

I smile and would put a lol if I thought you wouldn't be offended....you see, because of all I have endured and because of all the healing I have found in Christ, one of the ministries God has given me, is helping people find their healing in the power and might of the Holy Spirit. With my father, we know the root, but he would never give it up because of his pride, a pride he took even into his casket. One of the things that people rarely understand and in fact, it was part of my study yesterday, is that Jesus came to break the power sin has in our lives. IOW's we can try to change ourselves, but we will fail without the HS power, in fact II Tim. 3 says that we should avoid those people who have a form of Godliness but deny it's power. That power is over sin and death. We can't break that power on our own, which is how we know that God is real, cause He has impacted our lives in a way that only the supernatural can do. It's also why we are called to Love, because Love has a supernatural power to change situations and transform lives.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Loving your neighbor as yourself has some guidelines and Paul and Peter point those out best. It has been discussed in other threads here.

Just as one's own family is not necessarily his blood kin, loving one's neighbor is not necessarily always breaking bread with them nor accepting the things they believe are true. Sometimes it involves tough love until they can partake of the Greatest Command which is to love God.

 

[stevenfrancis]

To love those who hate you and to whom you hate back; who can do this? I could never be a Christian; I'm too hateful.

First, all things are possible with God. Amazing things, that we can't do on our own. This is good to always keep in mind, in all matters. If you give yourself over to Christ, He WILL help you do all these seemingly impossible things. (John 14:12 Believe me when I tell you this; the man who has learned to believe in me will be able to do what I do; nay, he will be able to do greater things yet.).

Second, Love is not the same as like. It is not expected of you that you join a bowling team with one you hate, and exchange valentines. You must love them. You must love ALL human beings, and understand that they too are children of God. Give them their human dignity, and pray for their salvation and conversion. You should want to see them in Heaven. This doesn't mean being social with them, or talking with them. It is simply your attitude toward them. Wishing their good. Wishing them well.

Finally, hatred does nothing of a positive nature for anyone. The greatest pain and suffering that hatred causes is to ones self. Just think about it for a moment. If you view someone you "hate" living out their life, and you feel all that black, ugly resentment in your guts, while they go about whistling and just continuing on their life, who is being hurt? If you yell or curse at such a one, aren't you just raising your own blood pressure, and letting your own character suffer? Aren't you just bringing yourself to their level? But worse. You're allowing them to throw you off your walk with Christ.

Christ raises the bar in all things like this. He says, if you love only those who love you, what do you accomplish? Even the most evil among us love those who love them. But the Christian disciple is asked to step from that mold. To be the unexpected for the world. Not to do the minimum buy in for being a human being. But to go the extra mile to be a Christian human being. Give when someone asks. If someone makes you walk one mile, walk two miles. If someone takes one thing from you, give them another thing, and mostly love all people, and pray for their well-being. Yes, it is easier said than done. But with prayer, and practicing with baby steps, you start to see the wisdom of the masters words. Of the Christian way. It will come natural to you, and be given to you as a gift. As soon as you ask. And that is as soon as one becomes willing to let go of all the blackness they hold greedily in themselves. We fall in love sometimes with the very poisons that are killing our souls. Resentment, hatred, unforgiveness, unrighteous anger, and despair. The Lord waints patiently to remove these from you. You need only ask Him with a sincere heart, on a regular basis, and you'll be able to see significant change in your own life.

Praise be to Lord Jesus Christ

 

[ToBeLoved]

The one who benefits from forgiveness is you. Hate does not go away, but eats at a person. We waste so much energy hating, when in fact the person that we hate or don't like skips merrily along in their life. The person who benefits is you.

Also, since hate is the opposite of love (which is what God is), all those negative hate/dislike emotions does put you in a bad place spiritually. It is very hard to pray or worship when you have that on your shoulders. Deep down we know that it is contrary to love and guilt will get to us eventually.

That's why I think many people (one's smarter than me, for I have held onto these bad feelings more than once) get rid of it right away. They make things right, forgive and move on. That's just the smart way to do it. Not the easy way, but the smart way.

 

[razzelflabben]

The one who benefits from forgiveness is you. Hate does not go away, but eats at a person. We waste so much energy hating, when in fact the person that we hate or don't like skips merrily along in their life. The person who benefits is you.

Also, since hate is the opposite of love (which is what God is), all those negative hate/dislike emotions does put you in a bad place spiritually. It is very hard to pray or worship when you have that on your shoulders. Deep down we know that it is contrary to love and guilt will get to us eventually.

how is it possible for Hate and Love to be opposites if God is LOVE but also is said in scripture to hate? Please just explain how this is possible since I have already demonstrated that pride is the opposite of Love, not hate...or are you referring only to the emotion of love as per the worlds understanding?

That's why I think many people (one's smarter than me, for I have held onto these bad feelings more than once) get rid of it right away. They make things right, forgive and move on. That's just the smart way to do it. Not the easy way, but the smart way.

the first step to forgiveness is being willing to forgive, which is an act of Love.

 

[oi_antz]

how is it possible for Hate and Love to be opposites if God is LOVE but also is said in scripture to hate? Please just explain how this is possible since I have already demonstrated that pride is the opposite of Love, not hate...or are you referring only to the emotion of love as per the worlds understanding? the first step to forgiveness is being willing to forgive, which is an act of Love.

I am wondering, when does love and hate motivate the same action? I know love and hate can coexist, but I do know them to be opposite forces. I cannot imagine how you understand it, can you please clarify your understanding?

 

[razzelflabben]

I am wondering, when does love and hate motivate the same action?

not sure I understand your question....please clarify.

I know love and hate can coexist, but I do know them to be opposite forces. I cannot imagine how you understand it, can you please clarify your understanding?

two things tell us that Love (biblical Love) and hate are not opposites, the 1. is that hate is only a strong emotion, nothing more, it can spur actions, but it is only emotion. Love is emotion, action, attitude, and more, therefore, an emotion cannot possibly be the opposite of an action or attitude, in order for them to be opposites, it would have to also be an action and an attitude and more, iow's something that affects the whole man with opposite goals as well. 2. the very core of Love is humility, that makes pride the opposite of Love.

I explained it all a few posts back, if you need more clarification, let me know...I'll get you the answer to your question when you explain it enough for me to answer.

 

[oi_antz]

not sure I understand your question....please clarify. two things tell us that Love (biblical Love) and hate are not opposites, the 1. is that hate is only a strong emotion, nothing more, it can spur actions, but it is only emotion. Love is emotion, action, attitude, and more, therefore, an emotion cannot possibly be the opposite of an action or attitude, in order for them to be opposites, it would have to also be an action and an attitude and more, iow's something that affects the whole man with opposite goals as well. 2. the very core of Love is humility, that makes pride the opposite of Love.

I explained it all a few posts back, if you need more clarification, let me know...I'll get you the answer to your question when you explain it enough for me to answer.

Thanks. This answered my question. I need to ponder it before I can agree or disagree.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks. This answered my question. I need to ponder it before I can agree or disagree.

done on line for the night, looking forward to more chats with you soon. May you have a peaceful evening resting in our Lord

 

[oi_antz]

done on line for the night, looking forward to more chats with you soon. May you have a peaceful evening resting in our Lord

It's still foreign to me. I have been accustomed to see love and hate as opposites basically all my life. I am particularly wondering about what you reckon is the crucial difference between an attitude and emotion wrt this, and why an action is not necessarily the result of attitude or emotion. Perhaps if you can remember that love and hate both are emotions and people tend to act due to emotions, it will help you to relate your point of view. Certainly to say that love and hate are not opposite is a radical and foreign concept, which requires special efforts in communicating. I did change this response to make a better effort too.

 

[Armoured]

To love those who hate you and to whom you hate back; who can do this? I could never be a Christian; I'm too hateful.

Part of it is about being humble. The biggest obstacle to most forgiveness is pride.

 

[razzelflabben]

It's still foreign to me. I have been accustomed to see love and hate as opposites basically all my life.

honestly, my understanding of the opposite of Love not being hate, changed only about 7 years ago. Most of us are taught from birth that Love and hate are opposites. About 7 years ago, God called me and equipped me to start studying Biblical Love full time. As that study began and I began to understand a little about Love (capital Love always referring to biblical Love) I saw the difference very clearly. To fully explain would require me to actually teach what I have learned about Love, which is not the purpose of this thread, so anything I offer is kind of partial for that reason.

Point being, I totally get where you are coming from, I was there myself not long ago.

I am particularly wondering about what you reckon is the crucial difference between an attitude and emotion wrt this, and why an action is not necessarily the result of attitude or emotion.

Hum...how to explain without going into teaching mode....Biblical Love consumes the whole man, iow's without actions, Love isn't, without attitude, Love isn't, without feeling, Love isn't. One way to illustrate this point is to go to I Cor. 13, the great Love chapter. In this passage we see a list of characteristics that are what Love is. All those characteristics have to be present for it to be Love. The worlds view of love is in contrast to this idea, that is why we can be deceived into thinking that Love and hate are opposites, because we have lost sight of what Biblical Love really is. We water it down with the worlds view of love and in that think we understand something that God says to is big to understand in an entire lifetime. By contrast, hate is an emotion period, it can spur a reaction from us, just like we could retaliate due to the emotion of hate, but retaliation isn't hate, it's a judgment. In fact, scripture tells us not to retaliate because God will judge. Likewise, hate as a feeling, as an emotion only can not be an attitude. We can have an attitude of displeasure, anger, hostility, etc, but not an attitude of the emotion of hate, that requires something specific to direct out attention on. So another illustration....in Love, we are to Love everyone, even our enemies, it is an attitude of Love in which no one is exempt: whereas, hate is an emotion directed at a specific person or thing because of something specific. IOW's hate picks and chooses who or what to hate, Love does not pick and choose. Hope that helps, I really am trying hard not to go into teaching mode on this.

Perhaps if you can remember that love and hate both are emotions and people tend to act due to emotions, it will help you to relate your point of view.

I totally get this, like I said, before I started studying Biblical Love, I was totally there with you, which hasn't been all that long ago. But Biblical Love does not require emotion in order to act, they function separately from one another and yet mysteriously together. Maybe this example will also help....many people confuse compassion with Love, where Love is compassionate, compassion cannot be Love because compassion can be self motivated rather than humility driven. By contrast, the actions of hate have to be driven by emotion.

Certainly to say that love and hate are not opposite is a radical and foreign concept, which requires special efforts in communicating. I did change this response to make a better effort too.

lol oh, I am well aware of how radical and foreign and how difficult it is to get people to see that Love is not what they think it is or should be. I actually really appreciate your discussion of it and find it an amazing comfort and encouragement. Thanks

 

[razzelflabben]

Part of it is about being humble. The biggest obstacle to most forgiveness is pride.

One of the things people have been talking a lot on this thread about is forgiveness. where forgiveness is without question the first step to Loving someone that is hard for us to Love, they are not one and the same, I just wanted to take time to point that out. Absolutely it begins with forgiving, but Love also has a purpose a goal, that of reconciliation/restoration, as such there is a way to bring that about and it isn't all emotionally charged, nor action driven, it is as you say a humility issue with a specific direction and method so to speak, it begins with forgiveness and ends with reconciliation/restoration. Love changes our situation and transforms our life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

how is it possible for Hate and Love to be opposites if God is LOVE but also is said in scripture to hate? Please just explain how this is possible since I have already demonstrated that pride is the opposite of Love, not hate...or are you referring only to the emotion of love as per the worlds understanding? the first step to forgiveness is being willing to forgive, which is an act of Love.

More to the world's understanding of hate being an emotion that eats at a person.

 

[razzelflabben]

More to the world's understanding of hate being an emotion that eats at a person.

if hate is not an emotion, what is it?