What God says about conduct

[Hammster]

There is the issue of context. It may require we read more than one verse at a time to get what is meant. Keep reading a couple more verses, and you see something other than what is assumed when only one verse is taken.

Romans 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
​

Why did they die between Adam and Moses?

 

[Hammster]

98 asked, "But where's Job's sin?" and "OK...so show me where he sinned..."

This is the right way to approach any dissection of these doctrines. We await the answer.

"For all have sinned..."

It's scares me that some think Job was without sin.

 

[twin1954]

We know that Job knew himself to be a sinner for he very clearly claims that he needed a Redeemer. Job 19:25-27

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
(Job 19:25-27)


Moreover Job died which we know is the penalty of sin.

Just because we do not have Job's sin recorded for us so that we can point it out we know from this and the whole of the teaching of the Scriptures that Job was not without sin. Why would Job need a Redeemer if he didn't need to be redeemed?

Psa. 24:1-5 sheds a lot of light on this as well:

A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(Psa 24:1-5)


To be accepted of the Lord you must be pure in thought, motive, word and deed. No one but Christ can fulfill that requirement.


Also was it not Job who asked in chapter 13:23 how many are mine iniquities? And in 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? And once more in 15:15 The Heavens are not clean in His sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man who drinks iniquity like water?

Yes Job was a perfect and upright man but he was so by an act of God in him and for him just as we are.


Now if we read the Scriptures with an understanding that the whole is about the person and work of Christ we can understand that Enoch walked with God by faith not by sight. He knew God and undoubtedly understood what the sacrifices he was taught to make, as was the sons of Adam, pointed to a Redeemer just as Job did. Job was perfect and upright through faith and so were all the Old Testament saints.
The Old Testament saints were saved through faith in the promised One though they did not know all the details. Gen. 3:15 is the first proclamation of the Gospel of Christ and all saved since then have been saved through faith in that promised Redeemer.

As I have said many times, to read the Scriptures with a strict literal understanding is to read them the same way the Pharisees did. Because they did they missed Christ.

 

[Avid]

I don't see "sinless" in there.

That is your term. It is not in the KJV Bible, and likely not in the Geneva either, though I have not yet searched it.

The reply given by Twin is more the kind of answer that would help your point. The issue is not whether he satisfied Hammster, but whether he satisfied God. Do you have scripture saying what sin this was, or that God called him a sinner?

Why did they die between Adam and Moses?

As far as why Job died, or any other, it is in the context of the very verses you quote in trying to make your point. Read the whole chapter of Romans 5.

 

[Avid]

... It's scares me that some think Job was without sin.

Try to mellow out, and not be so scared.

There is no reason to be scared about God approving Job in the face of His own enemies. There is nothing whereby you should be scared because God told Job's friends to ask Job to offer sacrifices for them, and to pray for them.

Job 42
7 ¶ And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
​

Again, a verse taken out of context does not prove the point you are attempting to make. To make your point, you need to show the basis for the accusation that Job had sinned, and whereby he sinned, in answer to the multiple questions asked by 98, and repeated by me, about that claim.

 

[Avid]

... To be accepted of the Lord you must be pure in thought, motive, word and deed. No one but Christ can fulfill that requirement...

Yours was a good answer, and I enjoy discussing these things with you. It may take a while to answer all the questions you pose, and it is getting late. If I may, I'll answer them as I have time, and return later to do more.

Job 42
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
​

God tested Job while claiming he was perfect, along with other things He said about Job. Job said of himself specifically the same things God said. His problems before the LORD stemmed specifically from not knowing everything as God does. We do not see God saying Job sinned. We see God asking Job questions that led him to realize how much he did not know.

 

[Avid]

Originally Posted by 98cwitr

But where's Job's sin?
​

Originally Posted by Hammster

We know he wasn't sinless.
​

Originally Posted by 98cwitr

OK...so show me where he sinned...
​

... if we had testimony that God in Heaven had told Satan that any person was perfect, and upright, we may need to consider that as significant.

Luke 1
5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

--- etc.---

We should be careful not to mistakenly apply one verse of scripture to all people outside the clear meaning, and contrary to clearly stated passages elsewhere...

I know we have zeroed-in on Job, but I gave other examples, and suggest you might answer what sin these people did.

 

[Bluelion]

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of the thread? maybe you 3 would like to start a new thread?

 

[Avid]

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of the thread? maybe you 3 would like to start a new thread?

Good point. I was just joining where the same question was asked multiple times without being addressed.

Maybe a new thread is in order. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[56Bluesman]

Thanks Blue Lion, Your opening post is instructive, chastening and encouraging to me. We Christians can be absolute world class jerks towards each other, and I've behaved that way far too many times myself towards fellow believers. It's a poor witness before the world if we are tearing each apart, and we are commanded by our Lord to love each other. There can be honest disagreements and debate among the brethren, but without grace and mercy coupled with humility, we are no better than the world, and sometimes we can seem even worse. Thanks again for your post.

 

[98cwitr]

I don't see "sinless" in there.

so how do you define "perfect?"

Sorry Blue...kinda felt we were still on topic with "conduct...."currently Job's. If we are too off topic for ya man we can do a new thread.

 

[Hammster]

so how do you define "perfect?"

Complete. That's the actual definition.

 

[98cwitr]

Complete. That's the actual definition.

Not according to webster!

1per·fect adjective \ˈpər-fikt\
: having no mistakes or flaws

: completely correct or accurate

: having all the qualities you want in that kind of person, situation, etc.

 

[Hammster]

Not according to webster!

1per·fect adjective \ˈpər-fikt\
: having no mistakes or flaws

: completely correct or accurate

: having all the qualities you want in that kind of person, situation, etc.

I was talking about the definition of the Hebrew word.

 

[Bluelion]

Thanks Blue Lion, Your opening post is instructive, chastening and encouraging to me. We Christians can be absolute world class jerks towards each other, and I've behaved that way far too many times myself towards fellow believers. It's a poor witness before the world if we are tearing each apart, and we are commanded by our Lord to love each other. There can be honest disagreements and debate among the brethren, but without grace and mercy coupled with humility, we are no better than the world, and sometimes we can seem even worse. Thanks again for your post.

thank you for saying so. I am happy you enjoyed it, it is nice to hear.

How can any one be led to God with the way Christians fight, why would anyone want to be apart of that family. You are so right about how it looks to others, but all things are possible with God. Good thing because we fall way short on every level.

Peace be with you
blu

 

[Bluelion]

so how do you define "perfect?"

Sorry Blue...kinda felt we were still on topic with "conduct...."currently Job's. If we are too off topic for ya man we can do a new thread.

If you are talking about Job conduct that is fine I just did not see the connection.

but if i may add, we too are blameless, It is by Christ we are blameless. This was the case with Abraham because of his faith, could Job have been counted blameless because of His faith?

You could argue that Ezekiel i think it was who was also called son of man that he was with pout sin, or that Enoch was with out sin being taken up to heaven, or even Elijah. But all these men were counted righteous by Faith, and blameless. Nothing these men did is beyond us, if we had enough faith, and walked closely with the Lord, we too could be called up to Heaven. If Jesus was not the only one who did not sin it would be no big deal that he was, is, with out sin, but even if those men never sinned they were born with sin. They sinned at birth. But When we apply God to are lives and surrender to Him God makes us righteous by and through Him, He makes us blameless. He washes us clean. Its by Faith.

 

[mikedsjr]

I'll just concede my point. Don't have time.

 

[twob4me]

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This thread has gone through a clean up and it's quite possible a further cleaning will take place. If you notice a post of yours missing it was removed in the clean up. Please stop with the Flaming and stay on topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Inkfingers]

Yeah it really does change the meaning, I guess the only way to figure this out would be to check the Greek.

That's why the Blue Letter Bible is a godsend in more than one way

 

[mikedsjr]

Op wants my apology I wrote here deleted.