What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

ContraMundum

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Where do you think they got the design for the learned ones, synagogues and later the churches? Pagans.

I don't understand this comment brother. A whopping portion of the Torah has precedent in paganism from start to finish. Are we then to conclude that Judaism is based on paganism? Many scholars say yes to that- and archaeology tends to lend more gravity to it every decade.
 
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Dave-W

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If the gentile is grafted in, it becomes part of what it is grafted into and as such does not and can't have an entirely different set of rules.... you are either a son or daughter or you aren't. Now, not all children got the same inheritance (Jews inherit the land (Y'israel) but the rules (statues, decree's ordinance etc) of the father apply to ALL his children.

I am married to my wife. We are one flesh. I do NOT wear dresses.

There are distinctions between Jew and Gentlie that HaShem has established and will continue.
 
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visionary

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All those words were spoken and addressed to the nation of Israel, not to all the nations.
Actually it is according to most Torah scholars....here's just one example....
Why do you think the Rabbis disagree with this position? How did they come to their position?
BTW- Using Greek logic to come to a Hebraic conclusion? I thought you were against all that.
It wasn't Yeshua's position....
God wants all people to be like Him.
Ps 82:5 They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 "Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."
…I think if you read this you can see that it is God intention... not that those who walk in darkness or lack in understanding can comprehend. Yeshua explained it further...
Matt 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
And He is our example, just as He followed His Father, so should we. Just earlier Yeshua gave the Jewish leaders a glimpse of His sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That wasn't an exclusive statement. But this is true.
Micah 4:2 Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
This is one law....and it will always have distinctions between male and female, ranking positions, and authorities.
 
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BukiRob

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All those words were spoken and addressed to the nation of Israel, not to all the nations.



Actually it is according to most Torah scholars....here's just one example....



Why do you think the Rabbis disagree with this position? How did they come to their position?

BTW- Using Greek logic to come to a Hebraic conclusion? I thought you were against all that.
Why would I consult or accept much of what the Rabbi's have to say about Messiah... they dont believe he has come and MANY of them dont believe what is in the Torah all concerning Messiah. Heck there is a movement in Israel right now that is waiting for a rabbi to rise... they think he was the messiah problem is he was born in Brooklyn, Ny
 
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BukiRob

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I am married to my wife. We are one flesh. I do NOT wear dresses.

There are distinctions between Jew and Gentlie that HaShem has established and will continue.
Yeah, and I POINTED some of them out...
There is 1 Torah for ALL people who wish to walk in obedience and be in a relationship with Gd.
 
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ContraMundum

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Why would I consult or accept much of what the Rabbi's have to say about Messiah... they dont believe he has come and MANY of them dont believe what is in the Torah all concerning Messiah. Heck there is a movement in Israel right now that is waiting for a rabbi to rise... they think he was the messiah problem is he was born in Brooklyn, Ny

The only problem with that is that the Rabbis at the Jerusalem Council also agreed with the Rabbis of old...and it seems that no matter who agrees and no matter how great the crowd of witnesses....some will always just walk their own way.
 
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ContraMundum

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It wasn't Yeshua's position....

Actually, I think it was...

This is one law....and it will always have distinctions between male and female, ranking positions, and authorities.

The issue is not whether there is one or two laws...it's about how different peoples live under those laws. Not every one of the 613 pertains individually to the Jews, and not every one of them pertain to the Gentiles. The term "One Law" which became a position of a MJ sect did a lot of damage to the Torah- making sweeping rash generalizations that made fast-food theology the order of the day. All it succeeded on doing was making a clear belief system muddy.
 
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BukiRob

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Actually, I think it was...



The issue is not whether there is one or two laws...it's about how different peoples live under those laws. Not every one of the 613 pertains individually to the Jews, and not every one of them pertain to the Gentiles. The term "One Law" which became a position of a MJ sect did a lot of damage to the Torah- making sweeping rash generalizations that made fast-food theology the order of the day. All it succeeded on doing was making a clear belief system muddy.

The expression one law does even begin to me what you are trying to imply. It is meant to combat the fallacious argument that the Torah is done away with. It means that gentiles who are believers and followers dont have a different set of rules, statues and decree's based upon being a gentile.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Why would I consult or accept much of what the Rabbi's have to say about Messiah... they dont believe he has come and MANY of them dont believe what is in the Torah all concerning Messiah. Heck there is a movement in Israel right now that is waiting for a rabbi to rise... they think he was the messiah problem is he was born in Brooklyn, Ny

Just what exactly is written in the Torah concerning the messiah?
 
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pat34lee

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I don't understand this comment brother. A whopping portion of the Torah has precedent in paganism from start to finish. Are we then to conclude that Judaism is based on paganism? Many scholars say yes to that- and archaeology tends to lend more gravity to it every decade.

Paganism was not the earlier religion, despite what archeologists say. Anyway, Judaism is not the original religion of Israel or those before Israel. Judaism is the religion of no temple and no sacrifices, and is not biblical.
 
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ContraMundum

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The expression one law does even begin to me what you are trying to imply. It is meant to combat the fallacious argument that the Torah is done away with. It means that gentiles who are believers and followers dont have a different set of rules, statues and decree's based upon being a gentile.

The fallacious argument that the "Torah has been done away with" is really not that popular anyway- probably because most people think it is fallacious. Dig deep into most theologies these days and you just don't see it anymore. Even the Reformers rarely taught such a thing. It's a matter really of how the Torah is applied and which laws pertain to whom. You have to look deeper to avoid getting sucked in to the arguments of the new spirits who claim everyone is lawless except for them!
 
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ContraMundum

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Paganism was not the earlier religion, despite what archeologists say.

Double standard brother. You cite the claims of archaeology that pagan sources are the precursor to Christianity but ignore those same sources when it comes to the Torah- which to me is a cut and dried argument. Paganism was around before the Torah and the pagans had almost everything important that the Jews later got before the Torah was given- the Torah teaches that!

Anyway, Judaism is not the original religion of Israel or those before Israel. Judaism is the religion of no temple and no sacrifices, and is not biblical.

...but most of Israel's history had no temple or sacrifices. There's entire eras without them in the Tanach!
 
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BukiRob

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The fallacious argument that the "Torah has been done away with" is really not that popular anyway- probably because most people think it is fallacious. Dig deep into most theologies these days and you just don't see it anymore. Even the Reformers rarely taught such a thing. It's a matter really of how the Torah is applied and which laws pertain to whom. You have to look deeper to avoid getting sucked in to the arguments of the new spirits who claim everyone is lawless except for them!
lol what planet do you live on?

The mainstream "church" 100% believes Torah is done away with and for you to suggest otherwise is sheer folly Get back to me when you hear of any non denominational or denominational body advocating for observing the feast days as articulated in scripture.

Yeah, I must have 'missed' the whole thing where Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutheran's, Episcopalians and Catholic's (to name a few) have, as a movement, said "oops we were wrong we really SHOULD be observing Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, Sukkot and the other feasts of Gd, in the manner HE has decreed it." I can assure you, THAT has not happened
 
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ContraMundum

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lol what planet do you live on?

The mainstream "church" 100% believes Torah is done away with and for you to suggest otherwise is sheer folly Get back to me when you hear of any non denominational or denominational body advocating for observing the feast days as articulated in scripture.

Yeah, I must have 'missed' the whole thing where Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutheran's, Episcopalians and Catholic's (to name a few) have, as a movement, said "oops we were wrong we really SHOULD be observing Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, Sukkot and the other feasts of Gd, in the manner HE has decreed it." I can assure you, THAT has not happened

I actually don't think you're even listening or willing to comprehend another point of view- and only you know why that is. You bring up feasts that in Jewish theology as well as Christian only pertain to Israel and somehow conclude that they were "thrown out"- which is just poor reasoning. That's like saying that because a male doesn't follow the laws pertaining specifically to women he must have "thrown out" the laws pertaining to women- which would obviously not be the case. The real problem with your POV is that your POV makes the Jews and the Christians wrong on a point they both agree upon. This means that millions of people for three thousand years are clueless on the Torah but the modern MJ sitting in his home with Google (usually separated from the community of God as well) and has worked it all out where thousands of Hebrew speaking scholars have got it wrong since Moses. It also implies that God has abandoned His people to the whims of individual opinion and hasn't led them since their initial calling. That would be pretty arrogant, right? Then why engage in it?

As for my knowledge of church stuff- I am a qualified, credentialed degree holding pastor and teacher and you're not listening to what's being written. I know my Church stuff. Every old Church Catechism has the decalogue- and every commentary I can think of off of the top of my head (and that's quite a few) on those catechisms state that all the laws connect to the others- so all 613 laws are in some way connected to the 10. Yeshua concurs. Teaching the 10 instructs us to look to the other 603. Now, if people get that wrong, that's their problem- they should be properly taught. I could bury you in proofs on this but I doubt you'd really consider it- which is why I wouldn't waste my time. I'm saying to you that you should re-check the primary sources, dig deep and stop the prejudice and hate against the Body of Yeshua. Have your opinions, but don't try to tell the rest of us what our opinions "should be" according to your own individual findings. We know what we believe, and we have a right to say that you are mis-representing us.
 
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pat34lee

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...but most of Israel's history had no temple or sacrifices. There's entire eras without them in the Tanach!

Only 2 counting this one. The other was the Babylonian captivity, which was very short. Even if you count the captivity in Egypt, there was only a short time when they were actually oppressed. Before the tabernacle and then the temple, they had sacrifices, just not in a particular spot.
 
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BukiRob

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I actually don't think you're even listening or willing to comprehend another point of view- and only you know why that is. You bring up feasts that in Jewish theology as well as Christian only pertain to Israel and somehow conclude that they were "thrown out"- which is just poor reasoning. That's like saying that because a male doesn't follow the laws pertaining specifically to women he must have "thrown out" the laws pertaining to women- which would obviously not be the case. The real problem with your POV is that your POV makes the Jews and the Christians wrong on a point they both agree upon. This means that millions of people for three thousand years are clueless on the Torah but the modern MJ sitting in his home with Google (usually separated from the community of God as well) and has worked it all out where thousands of Hebrew speaking scholars have got it wrong since Moses. It also implies that God has abandoned His people to the whims of individual opinion and hasn't led them since their initial calling. That would be pretty arrogant, right? Then why engage in it?

As for my knowledge of church stuff- I am a qualified, credentialed degree holding pastor and teacher and you're not listening to what's being written. I know my Church stuff. Every old Church Catechism has the decalogue- and every commentary I can think of off of the top of my head (and that's quite a few) on those catechisms state that all the laws connect to the others- so all 613 laws are in some way connected to the 10. Yeshua concurs. Teaching the 10 instructs us to look to the other 603. Now, if people get that wrong, that's their problem- they should be properly taught. I could bury you in proofs on this but I doubt you'd really consider it- which is why I wouldn't waste my time. I'm saying to you that you should re-check the primary sources, dig deep and stop the prejudice and hate against the Body of Yeshua. Have your opinions, but don't try to tell the rest of us what our opinions "should be" according to your own individual findings. We know what we believe, and we have a right to say that you are mis-representing us.

I don't hate the body. How dare you even suggest that!!! I have disdain for the institution that teaches falsehood. There are MANY believer's that attend "churches" that are spiritually dead churches. Those believer's, many of them, have vibrant deep walks with Gd. That does not mean that the instution they attend is not full of gross error. The two couldn't be more exclusively distinct in nature.

I have been a part of the body since the 1960's I have studied IN DEPTH Early church history and what you are selling is pure rubbish. You keep going on about the 613 mitzvots and how they can't apply to all (which is true), represent that as what I am saying all while COMPLETELY gloss over what I am actually saying. I've noticed that you seem to do this routinely with many posters on here. You keep trying to sell this silliness that Gd has 2 different laws... one for the Jews and another far less restrictive set for gentiles all while you completely ignore what scripture declares.

Here is what is truly insane with your line of thought. Messiah never, ever, not once even suggested that the Torah was done away with... Nor did he ever make even the most remote suggestion that the Torah was done away with for ANYONE because of his coming to earth. You attempt to argue that basically, gentiles are not subject to Torah well, because they aren't Jews. Yet Messiah never once even made the remotest of all suggestion that even remotely suggest such a wild assertion.

The claim "Gentiles are not bound by Torah" is by its very nature an extraordinary claim. Now it would not be an extraordinary claim if we are speaking of Gdless gentiles. But we are talking about BELIEVERS. As such, such a claim then DOES become an extraordinary claim thus does require extraordinary evidence to support said claim.

You will find no scriptural evidence that is extraordinary in its unmistakable clarity regarding this.

What I have been saying and you REPEATEDLY and you seem to intentionally twist, distort and misrepresent, is that the gentile church does NOT teach that we are to observe the feasts of Gd as they are recorded in scripture. I'm saying that the gentile church has replaced Passover with Easter. I'm saying that the "church" has replaced Sukkot with Pentecost and the vast majority of people in church have NO IDEA what Sukkot is. I'm saying the "church" doesn't observe ANY of the feast days as dictated in scripture in the manor or on the dates found in SCRIPTURE! Heck its almost never discussed, taught on or preached about and is certainly NOT observed.

Did Daniel observe all of the 613 that were required of him as an OT Jew? Of course not BECAUSE HE COULDN"T. He wasn't in the land and neither is the modern believer. Does that mean that willful ignorance is some how OK and that well it doesn't matter? Of course not.

Just who do you think Gd is talking about when he says in Rev COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.... I got news for you, it is the INSTITUTION that rejects scripture that has sought (and done) the changing of seasons and the abandoning of those things which Gd declares should be done.

Get back to me when you can cite a single example where mainstream denominational churches at the institutional level are telling all if its priests and pastors that we are going to observe Passover meal on 14 Nissan and that it is the kick off (if you will) for the week of unleavened bread.

Instead we have Lent... which is to be found NO WHERE in scripture... the practice of not eating meat on "Good Friday" under the grossly mistaken idea that Messiah was crucified on a Friday which is IMPOSSIBLE. While it also never talks about the root of good Friday which is taken from the pagan holiday Blood Friday. Or that the roots of Easter go all the way back to Babylon.

Easter has replaced what ACTUALLY happened and why Yeshua was found in a "garden" doing the wave offering of First Fruits. I bet that less than 1 in 10 people who go to a mainstream denominational church even know this. Gd dearly loves the people (as do I ) But to suggest that everything is fine????? SHEER FOLLY
 
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Elihoenai

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God wants all people to be like Him.


Amen!!!

God = Elohim = Strong One


Genesis 12:1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 And Jehovah saith unto Abram, `Go for thyself, from thy land, and from thy kindred, and from the house of thy father, unto the land which I shew thee.



Deuteronomy 4:33-34 King James Version (KJV)

33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?



Mark 1:22 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

22 and they were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes.
 
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Elihoenai

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not that those who walk in darkness or lack in understanding can comprehend.


Amen!!!


John 8:38-39 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

38 I -- that which I have seen with my Father do speak, and ye, therefore, that which ye have seen with your father -- ye do.'

39 They answered and said to him, `Our father is Abraham;' Jesus saith to them, `If children of Abraham ye were, the works of Abraham ye were doing;



Romans 9:6-8 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who [are] of Israel are these Israel;

7 nor because they are seed of Abraham [are] all children, but -- `in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'

8 that is, the children of the flesh -- these [are] not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;



1 Corinthians 2:11 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
 
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Elihoenai

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And He is our example, just as He followed His Father, so should we. Just earlier Yeshua gave the Jewish leaders a glimpse of His sheep.

Amen!!!


Genesis 30:32 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

32 I pass through all thy flock to-day to turn aside from thence every sheep speckled and spotted, and every brown sheep among the lambs, and speckled and spotted among the goats -- and it hath been my hire;



John 8:31 King James Version (KJV)

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;




This is one law....and it will always have distinctions between male and female, ranking positions, and authorities.

Amen!!!


Genesis 12:14-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 And it cometh to pass, at the entering of Abram into Egypt, that the Egyptians see the woman that she [is] exceeding fair;

15 and princes of Pharaoh see her, and praise her unto Pharaoh, and the woman is taken [to] Pharaoh's house;



Isaiah 14:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
 
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