What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

[ContraMundum]

The irony of the conversation is that the more you try to label and compartmentalize it, the worse it will be. Hoshiyya touched on a good point of functional beliefs. That is why most MJ identify with Judaism instead of Christianity. The functional parts of our lives, like Sabbath, clean meats, ect, are based on the same thing. Christians live their lives primarily based on what is right in their own eyes. It can also be funny to see how theoretical beliefs don't actually transfer into real life. I know a Calvinist who insists all our good works are "filthy rags", yet he puts a lot of time and energy into good works. I know several people who believe in a pre-trib rapture, yet they are serious preppers.

Man, so true.

Hopefully MJ stays "disorganized". It would be a shame to get more labels and segregate everyone.

I love that. Loaded with irony yet satisfying all at once.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Hopefully MJ stays "disorganized". It would be a shame to get more labels and segregate everyone.

I agree with what you said in your post, but want to respond to the final two sentences in your post:

MJ is already disorganized (divided) and hence full of segregation, divisions, labelling, etc.
I think organization (unity) would definetely be a good thing. I wish people would get past their eccentricities and divisiveness, and start working together, to have unity based on Torah, instead of all this childish disorganized segregation.

 

[Elihoenai]

The original and true Judeo-Christian Church have the Son and thereby remain in righteousness that they sin not whether in thought, word or deed.

The mind of the Pharisees and Sadducess is from below and with this mind it is impossible to cease from sin.

The real split is between the Pharisees type and the Son's interpretation/understanding of the Hebrew scriptures.



1 John 5:12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God -- the life he hath not.



John 8:23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23 and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;



2 Peter 2:14 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse,

 

[BelieveTheWord]

I agree with what you said in your post, but want to respond to the final two sentences in your post:

MJ is already disorganized (divided) and hence full of segregation, divisions, labelling, etc.
I think organization (unity) would definetely be a good thing. I wish people would get past their eccentricities and divisiveness, and start working together, to have unity based on Torah, instead of all this childish disorganized segregation.

I guess I just haven't seen it. Sure there are a lot of opinions on-line, but in personal experience, people are happy to get together with others to discuss, share appointed times, and so on. Very few people are really willing to alienate themselves based on their beliefs of new moon, or The Name. Most people I've met have been quite sincere, and aren't interested in labels either.

 

[Hoshiyya]

To be honest, I haven't seen any unity in MJ whatsoever.
Unless one wants to severely debase the meaning of the word unity.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

Oh, there are so MANY sects to choose from, lol.

My particular sect seems as if it is "sola scriptura" (aka scripture alone) type of Judaism, with an old school Unitarian twist ...none of us believe that Messiah is also YHVH, and has a beginning unlike the Father Who always existed.

We also choose to follow the years according to new moons, and practice the feast only as a memorial, because we dwell in a foreign land. Some of us are actual Jews, some of us are gentiles though none exalt themselves over the other because of this.

We have much respect for the Protestant Reformation, though we all think it did not go far enough ...so we are also Protestant in regards to Romanism.

We also fail to see ourselves as citizens of any country, but only as strangers dwelling in a foreign land, and that our King, and Kingdom are above and that we need no governing bodies because we are self governed and walk according to the laws of Torah.

We also have no set teacher for pay ...we rather consider it a Bible Study if anything.

...now we have no particular Messianic "conference" but we are indeed another example of an Messianic Judaism wild card, lol.

 

[ContraMundum]

To be honest, I haven't seen any unity in MJ whatsoever.
Unless one wants to severely debase the meaning of the word unity.

I don't think you ever will, until they develop a mature ecclesiology. At the moment it's more like everyone has their own little agenda.

 

[Dave-W]

This is because Jews in gentile churches can still understand their Jewish identity.

"Can?" Absolutely. DO? Hardly. Many church groups actively teach AGAINST that.

Does the Jewish catholic priest he is working with self identify as a Hebrew Catholic? I couldn't find anything on the website about this. However, if I had to bet money on it, I'd wager he does. As a Hebrew Catholic, I've never had problems with the Hashivenu crowd.

The Priest's name if Fr Antoine Levy. He is of French Jewish stock. I have not heard of him using the term "Hebrew Catholic." AFAICT, he was just a regular priest that happened to come from a Jewish family. It was at some point God started drawing him back to the Jewish community and he ran into Kinzer in Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

The Priest's name if Fr Antoine Levy. He is of French Jewish stock. I have not heard of him using the term "Hebrew Catholic." AFAICT, he was just a regular priest that happened to come from a Jewish family. It was at some point God started drawing him back to the Jewish community and he ran into Kinzer in Israel.

So he IS a priest who is into his Jewish roots then. That's what I was checking for. Thanks.

 

[BukiRob]

a sect of Judaism, the biblical version that Yeshua explained is the right course, which means if Judaic traditions void the Law of God, they are not to be followed.

Yep...

And eventually, Judiasm will embrace it wholeheartedly once they recognize Yeshua for who he truly is... HaMashiach

 

[BukiRob]

Yeah - but that is not the whole story. He is VERY MUCH in favor of the gentile church as well. He sees a completely obedient gentile body that is almost completly devoid of anything Torah and a Jewish body that is very Torah observant. He has a serious problem with people like me who are gentiles in the messianic movement but apparently not with Jews in tradional churches. (hence his co-founding the Helsinki Consultation with a Jewish catholic priest)

There is a very obvious problem with his view... over and over, especially in the Torah and the Tanak

Num 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you."

Ex 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Lev 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Num 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

The teaching or idea that you can both be simultaneously grafted in and yet completely apart is a tradition of man not found in scripture.

If the gentile is grafted in, it becomes part of what it is grafted into and as such does not and can't have an entirely different set of rules.... you are either a son or daughter or you aren't. Now, not all children got the same inheritance (Jews inherit the land (Y'israel) but the rules (statues, decree's ordinance etc) of the father apply to ALL his children.

 

[BukiRob]

It seems to me that Messianic people generally come from and are more comparable in their tendencies to Protestantism. Messianics probably don't like to hear that, and many would want to be considered a part of the fold of Judaism. And ideally, that would be the case, but it is not.

Protestantism, Mormonism and Messianic Judaism are basically in competition for the same people (which is not to say that MJ is a dangerous competition to the other two.)

MJ occasionally gets influx from Traditional Judaism, and maybe vice versa, but as a general rule MJ is a gentile religion, a gentile reformation of Christianity. I am not saying that is good or that it is bad, it is just an observation.

Im sorry but you are speaking from your own observation and ascribing it as the rule for all...

I can only speak for the place I worship.... in which the majority of those who attend are JEWISH and ALL of the elders are Jewish. Jewish Rabbi who was raised as a conservative, observant Jew. We are far, far, far more closely aligned to conservative Judaism in terms of the service itself. In fact when a Bar Mitzvah occurs and non believing Jews attend they are shocked at how much it resembles a conservative Jewish synagogue service.

 

[BukiRob]

Im sorry but you are speaking from your own observation and ascribing it as the rule for all...

I can only speak for the place I worship.... in which the majority of those who attend are JEWISH and ALL of the elders are Jewish. Jewish Rabbi who was raised as a conservative, observant Jew. We are far, far, far more closely aligned to conservative Judaism in terms of the service itself. In fact when a Bar Mitzvah occurs and non believing Jews attend they are shocked at how much it resembles a conservative Jewish synagogue service.

Perhaps you are seeing things I am not since I only go to my local MJ synagogue. I can say that the Rabbi who has been at this synagogue has been here 20+ years and is a former president of the UMJC. I cant speak to the larger organization and frankly, I am not concerned or interested in the broader organization. What I am concerned with is teaching scripture through proper hermeneutics and exegesis at the local level and that there be a constant and ongoing effort to weed out error.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Yep...

And eventually, Judiasm will embrace it wholeheartedly once they recognize Yeshua for who he truly is... HaMashiach

At the rate it has been coming along, it will be a long time before that happens.

 

[BukiRob]

At the rate it has been coming along, it will be a long time before that happens.

That may be... but I think it is unlikely that the "gentile church" is going to be the tool Gd uses...

 

[Elihoenai]

Jeremiah 50:16-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16 Cut off the sower from Babylon, And him handling the sickle in the time of harvest, Because of the oppressing sword, Each unto his people -- they turn, And each to his land -- they flee.

17 A scattered sheep is Israel, lions have driven away, At first, devour him did the king of Asshur, And now, at last, broken his bone Hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.



John 10:30 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 I and the Father are one.'



John 17:11 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we;

 

[pat34lee]

when a Bar Mitzvah occurs and non believing Jews attend they are shocked at how much it resembles a conservative Jewish synagogue service.

But is that a good thing?

 

[BukiRob]

But is that a good thing?

LOL over breaking Sabbath, coopting of pagan temple practices etc

Yeah, Id say thats a good thing

 

[pat34lee]

LOL over breaking Sabbath, coopting of pagan temple practices etc

Yeah, Id say thats a good thing

Where do you think they got the design for the learned ones, synagogues and later the churches? Pagans.

 

[ContraMundum]

There is a very obvious problem with his view... over and over, especially in the Torah and the Tanak

Num 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you."

Ex 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Lev 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Num 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

All those words were spoken and addressed to the nation of Israel, not to all the nations.

The teaching or idea that you can both be simultaneously grafted in and yet completely apart is a tradition of man not found in scripture.

Actually it is according to most Torah scholars....here's just one example....

If the gentile is grafted in, it becomes part of what it is grafted into and as such does not and can't have an entirely different set of rules.... you are either a son or daughter or you aren't. Now, not all children got the same inheritance (Jews inherit the land (Y'israel) but the rules (statues, decree's ordinance etc) of the father apply to ALL his children.

Why do you think the Rabbis disagree with this position? How did they come to their position?

BTW- Using Greek logic to come to a Hebraic conclusion? I thought you were against all that.