What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

[Sammy-San]

Judaism or Christianity?

Technically, they believe the essences of both faiths (they follow Mosaic Law and traditions of the Hebrews, but also believe in the divinity of Jesus), but thats not mutually exclusive because early Christianity was a Jewish sect.

But over time, they have evolved into separate religions. Do Messianics generally consider themselves more of a Christian or Jewish sect? I know Jews generally view them as a Christian sect, and Christians accept them as one of their sects. But some Messianic Jews view Christianity as gentile and pagan (with Christmas and Easter-Constantine Sunday worship), and dont view themselves as Christians. While calling yourself a name is mostly semantics and doesnt change beliefs, im still curious about this topic.

The seperation between the two faiths didnt exist when Christianity was created. It came about later on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_of_early_Christianity_and_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

Quote

Early Christianity gradually grew apartfrom Judaism during the first two centuries and established itself as a predominantly gentile religion in the Roman Empire.

In the Ante-Nicene Period (literally before the First Council of Nicaea in 325), following the Apostolic Age, both incredible diversity and unifying characteristics lacking in the apostolic period emerged simultaneously. Part of the unifying trend was an increasingly harsh rejection of Judaism and Jewish practices. Quote.

 

[visionary]

a sect of Judaism, the biblical version that Yeshua explained is the right course, which means if Judaic traditions void the Law of God, they are not to be followed.

 

[Dave-W]

We are a sect of the biblical faith of Abraham, Moses and Yeshua. We consider the "seperation of Church and Synagogue" to be artificial and uncalled-for.

At least that is the theory.

In the real world where there IS a defacto (or even dejure) seperation between Traditional Judaism and Traditional Christianity; we consider ourselves in a bridge position, with one foot in each camp.

So many from both camps who are fully invested in the seperation see us as wholly in the other camp.

 

[Open Heart]

After reading Post Missionary Messianic Judaism, I'd have to say that Messianics consider themselves primarily a sect of Judaism. That is why Messianic (the christian part) is the adjective and Judaism is the noun. This is not true of all MJs... but this does seem to be the direction that MJ is moving.

 

[Dave-W]

After reading Post Missionary Messianic Judaism, I'd have to say that Messianics consider themselves primarily a sect of Judaism. That is why Messianic (the christian part) is the adjective and Judaism is the noun. This is not true of all MJs... but this does seem to be the direction that MJ is moving.

LOL. That is certainly the way Mark Kinzer would like to take it.

My BIL tried to join his congregation, but found out that gentiles are not allowed to join, and after visiting a few times are asked to move on. But that is not the majority opinion in MJ.

 

[Sammy-San]

We are a sect of the biblical faith of Abraham, Moses and Yeshua. We consider the "seperation of Church and Synagogue" to be artificial and uncalled-for.

At least that is the theory.

In the real world where there IS a defacto (or even dejure) seperation between Traditional Judaism and Traditional Christianity; we consider ourselves in a bridge position, with one foot in each camp.

So many from both camps who are fully invested in the seperation see us as wholly in the other camp.

So basically you consider yourselves syncretic-both a Jewish and Christian sect at the same time? That seems like the simplest explanation to me. And it makes sense-the very early church was that.

 

[Dave-W]

So basically you consider yourselves syncretic-both a Jewish and Christian sect at the same time? That seems like the simplest explanation to me. And it makes sense-the very early church was that.

Syncretic? Wow. How greek a term can you get? We tend to use Hebraic terminology as much as possible. Greek terminology seems very jarring.

Yes - Jewish and "christian" at the same time. But we (for the most part) do not use "Christ" or any derivative of that word as it has a LOT of baggage in the Jewish community.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Sam, you really answered your own question. Simply a return to what those who learned directly from the Messiah believed. That's why some people use the original term "The Way". Judaism went one way, and Christianity went another way. The point is to return to Torah while interpreting it through loving Yahweh, and loving your neighbor.

 

[ContraMundum]

LOL. That is certainly the way Mark Kinzer would like to take it.

My BIL tried to join his congregation, but found out that gentiles are not allowed to join, and after visiting a few times are asked to move on. But that is not the majority opinion in MJ.

Wow. Bad. Hand him a NT for me next time you see him.

 

[ContraMundum]

So basically you consider yourselves syncretic-both a Jewish and Christian sect at the same time? That seems like the simplest explanation to me. And it makes sense-the very early church was that.

That would be the sanest way of looking at it, IMHO.

 

[ContraMundum]

Syncretic? Wow. How greek a term can you get? We tend to use Hebraic terminology as much as possible. Greek terminology seems very jarring.

OK...then don't use the word synagogue either and think of a new name for Moses (because that ain't Hebrew either!)

Funny, all the Jewish literature I have read, all the Jewish culture I was raised in, and all of the Jewish Rabbis I have ever spoke to never have these kinds of racist hangups. In fact, on Lag B'Omer just past a Rabbi friend of mine was praising the Greeks, saying that the word for Greece "Yavan" (יָוָן) uses those letters to describe how the Greeks were deep thinkers, always going deeper. He considered it admirable. Also interesting is that those same letters with an additional צ at the front and you get "Zion" ציון. There's a 'drash in there somewhere.

 

[Dave-W]

LOL. That is certainly the way Mark Kinzer would like to take it.
My BIL tried to join his congregation, but found out that gentiles are not allowed to join, and after visiting a few times are asked to move on. But that is not the majority opinion in MJ.

Wow. Bad. Hand him a NT for me next time you see him.

Yeah - but that is not the whole story. He is VERY MUCH in favor of the gentile church as well. He sees a completely obedient gentile body that is almost completly devoid of anything Torah and a Jewish body that is very Torah observant. He has a serious problem with people like me who are gentiles in the messianic movement but apparently not with Jews in tradional churches. (hence his co-founding the Helsinki Consultation with a Jewish catholic priest)

 

[Dave-W]

OK...then don't use the word synagogue either and think of a new name for Moses (because that ain't Hebrew either!)

We use "shul" and Moshe (pronounced moe SHAY) which are Yiddish and Hebrew respectively. Synagogue is one of those words that migrated from Greek into Hebrew.

Actually "Moshe" did the same thing from ancient Egyptian where it meant "drawn out of..." For example Ra Moshe (aka Ramses) means drawn out of the sun.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeah - but that is not the whole story. He is VERY MUCH in favor of the gentile church as well. He sees a completely obedient gentile body that is almost completly devoid of anything Torah and a Jewish body that is very Torah observant. He has a serious problem with people like me who are gentiles in the messianic movement but apparently not with Jews in tradional churches. (hence his co-founding the Helsinki Consultation with a Jewish catholic priest)

It sounds to me like he has things together.

While I kind of frown on him turning gentiles away, I understand why he is doing it. You can't have messianic judaism without Jews, and presently gentiles are overwhelming the movement. He believes that gentiles already have an adequate place: the churches. It is Jews, he believes, that need a place, where we can express our identity in community. It makes sense.

 

[caeman]

I would agree that Messianic Judaism is in the Judaism tree. But then again, I see Christianity as just being another branch on that same tree. When someone asks me how I categorized myself, I simply says, "I am a Judeo-Christian." A Christian is someone that Christ-like. For the most part, most of my friends are confused by MJ's, because they have been taught their whole lives by the religious and secular world that that a Jew cannot believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, and to do so automagically makes you a Christian. But the Christians see the MJ following Kosher, and celebrating the Jewish holidays, and call them Jews.

So many confusing labels.

We are echad. We are one body under one G-d.

 

[Dave-W]

While I kind of frown on him turning gentiles away, I understand why he is doing it. You can't have messianic judaism without Jews, and presently gentiles are overwhelming the movement. He believes that gentiles already have an adequate place: the churches. It is Jews, he believes, that need a place, where we can express our identity in community. It makes sense.

Maybe to a degree. But part of what he (and others in the Hashveinu sect of the UMJC) chafes at is gentiles wearing kippas, prayer shawls and reading from Torah scrolls. He sees it like men wearing women's clothing; confusing who is a Jew and who is a Gentile.

 

[caeman]

The reason some gentiles are seeking out a MJ Synagogue is because the other churches aren't giving them what they seek. There is far to much anti-Jew talk going on in many churches and it is turning off many Christians that see the Jews and Israel and G-d over them as integral to being a Christian. Far too many churches are still teaching dual theology.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Maybe to a degree. But part of what he (and others in the Hashveinu sect of the UMJC) chafes at is gentiles wearing kippas, prayer shawls and reading from Torah scrolls. He sees it like men wearing women's clothing; confusing who is a Jew and who is a Gentile.

The Pope wears a kippa, so wearing a kippa does not mean you are Jewish.

 

[Open Heart]

Maybe to a degree. But part of what he (and others in the Hashveinu sect of the UMJC) chafes at is gentiles wearing kippas, prayer shawls and reading from Torah scrolls. He sees it like men wearing women's clothing; confusing who is a Jew and who is a Gentile.

Well, Yes.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Syncretic? Wow. How greek a term can you get? We tend to use Hebraic terminology as much as possible.

Yeah, it's our form of a secret handshake.