What caused the Universe?

[durangodawood]

And neither #2, #3 nor #4 rule out #1.

Hmm.

I suppose you could have something that exists eternally, but was created. It rather defies logic. But I'm not sure if logic is a reasonable constraint on this kind of speculation.

 

[AV1611VET]

What caused God?

God is self-existent.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

I have no idea, will probably never know and it there is a good chance humanity will never get a definitive answer.

But I'm okay with that

 

[durangodawood]

God is self-existent.

Maybe the universe is too!

 

[AV1611VET]

Suppose somebody has faith to understand there was a different cause. How do you know your faith is right and the other faith is wrong?

As the verse goes on to say ...

Hebrews 11:3a Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,

This lines up with what God did in Genesis 1, where ten times we see the phrase: AND GOD SAID.

So my faith is corroborated by the Bible.

 

[Speedwell]

Hmm.

I suppose you could have something that exists eternally, but was created. It rather defies logic. But I'm not sure if logic is a reasonable constraint on this kind of speculation.

In theology, it's an ancient belief called creation ex materia in which God creates the universe from some matter co-eternal with Him. In Christianity it has largely been supplanted by creation ex nihilo but some Christians believe it to this day.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think I will mark your homework incomplete. The assignment was, "tell us what caused it, and how you know you are right." You gave an answer, but it seems you haven't shown your work. "I have faith that I am right" hardly qualifies as a convincing argument for your position.

That's your prerogative.

When you chose your name, you didn't choose [just] "Merle," you chose "doubting merle."

Anyone proud enough to announce to the world that he is a "doubter" is, in my opinion, not going to be easily convinced of anything ... just on principle.

In other words, just as my Prime Directive is: LET NOTHING CONTRADICT THE BIBLE; your Prime Directive is: LET NOTHING FROM THE BIBLE CONVINCE ME.

You're just being true to your name.

Thomas, in the Bible, is known as "Doubting Thomas," and it took scientific evidence to change his mind.

Scientific evidence that isn't available to us in this current dispensation.

If you want to play Doubting Thomas for science's sake, that's your prerogative ... but it'll take you straight to Hell.

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe the universe is too!

Then there must be two universes: the one God created, and the one that is self-existent.

Which one is your preference?

 

[doubtingmerle]

your Prime Directive is: LET NOTHING FROM THE BIBLE CONVINCE ME.

No, my prime directive is "convince me".

My avatar is The Thinker. Beneath that it says "I'll think about it". My tagline is an argument for the need to think things through. So I think I have made it clear that I am here to think about the evidence, not to make sure I don't ever think about what you have to say.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, my prime directive is "convince me".

My avatar is The Thinker. Beneath that it says "I'll think about it". My tagline is an argument for the need to think things through. So I think I have made it clear that I am here to think about the evidence, not to make sure I don't ever think about what you have to say.

I focused on your name, not your tagline.

 

[durangodawood]

Then there must be two universes: the one God created, and the one that is self-existent.

Why can't there just be one self-existent universe... and nothing else?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why can't there just be one self-existent universe... and nothing else?

Because God created one: telling us how He did it, where He did it, when He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

 

[durangodawood]

Because God created one: telling us how He did it, where He did it, when He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

Thats a completely a matter of faith.

For a second there I though you might have had some reasoning you could show me.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thats a completely a matter of faith.

For a second there I though you might have had some reasoning you could show me.

Speaking of faith and reasoning ...

If someone showed you reasoning, you wouldn't be a seeker anymore, would you?

I'm sure you're going to protect your faith, even if you have to deny the Bible to do it.

 

[durangodawood]

...If someone showed you reasoning, you wouldn't be a seeker anymore, would you?....

Reasoning that led to God? I am indeed rather moved by observation and reason...including subjective observations and internal experiences.

I'm sure you're going to protect your faith....

Well, at least someone is sure.

 

[MasonP]

God is self-existent.

How do you know that?

 

[HitchSlap]

God is self-existent.

But the universe isn't?

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you know that?

He said He was.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[AV1611VET]

But the universe isn't?

No.

The universe isn't even self-sustaining.

 

[HitchSlap]

No.

The universe isn't even self-sustaining.

It's not? Matter can be created and destroyed?

Huh.