what can you do when religion feels uncanny?

lutherangerman

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I believe in God, and in His Son Jesus, but I find much of religion really uncanny, including the bible. For example, the idea that God is appeased by the smell of burning meat or that forgiveness requires the shedding of blood. Or the harsh penalties for sin in the law of Moses. They really freak me out.

I don't have anything against most of the commandments. Killing, stealing, lying and not keeping sex sacred are not things I enjoy - I realize such things must be forbidden morally.

But neither do I understand why, for example, a fornicator is supposed to be stoned. That feels muslim to me, not christian.

So I decided that especially the Old Testament was written for another time when people were pretty savage. Apostle Paul also wrote that the law is of no real use to us because it's really the power of sin, that we're just too weak to suffice the whole of the law. So we got Jesus who upholds eternal grace for us. God recognizing the little men He has created, taking responsibility.

But there are still the hellfire threats. I really cannot take them literally, that God would make some people suffer forever. That's just beyond me, and I cannot reconcile it with God saying that He is love.

Why are there these uncanny things in the bible??? God is not a hypocrite so He can't say that He is love and then He does these things. So again I would suppose that God takes people at their level and speaks to them according to where they're at. And the ancient people felt it normal that there is war and bloodshed. The pagan religions, after all, did that thing with animal sacrifices too.

But it's like in the jewish religion. After they lost their temple in Jerusalem, the jews couldn't make animal sacrifices either, and so they decided that to atone for sins they had to pray much and give a lot of alms. Isn't that better than blood sacrifices? If you have sinned, and then pray about it, you work through the sin and understand how bad it was, and likely you won't do it again easily. And doing good to a poor person really produces something good, which again is better than when an animal gets killed for you when it hasn't done something, when it was innocent of course.

The sacrifice of Jesus seems to be divine to me, because it ended all the animal sacrifices, and yet we know in it a kind and merciful Savior that exemplifies His love for us. And so we can simply trust God now. And the resurrection shows us there is life after death, no need to fear death anymore.

But I wonder why religion had to be so uncanny. Isn't it possible to live in love and peace with your Father in Heaven? We learn virtue from Jesus who is the same as His Father, so we have a virtuous God who is a good example for us. But when I read the bible there is little virtue at many places and some writings are so awkward. For example when a prophet says that the jews will be besieged in war and will eat their own babies because they have no other food. This is so terrible, it makes me want to puke.

Is there perhaps no other solution but to discard some of the bible, saying it was a product of its time when people didn't know differently? In the Sermon of the Mount Jesus disagrees with many parts of the law of Moses. And then He dies for us and forgave His murderers instead of lashing out against us.

So we really have a God of love. But why was the bible so uncanny. So many children must have felt fear and horror of God...
 

justavisitor

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God made an old covenant which Israel did not keep just as Adam broke the first covenant but in the new covenant God forgave all sins under the old covenant
If we lived in those times we would be under the same law
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ
Blood was not necessary but Gods will remember when Jesus said Father all things are possible for You
The old covenant was just because God loved all those he chastened unlike islam which is punishment not chastisement

However Jesus also warned saying fear Him which destroys body and soul in hell
God is not the author of death but people is Gods hand shortened that it can not save ? But your sins have seperate yourself from God
This is the condemnation to forever love the darkness
God sent not His son to condemn
 
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americanvet

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seeingeyes

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But I wonder why religion had to be so uncanny. Isn't it possible to live in love and peace with your Father in Heaven? We learn virtue from Jesus who is the same as His Father, so we have a virtuous God who is a good example for us. But when I read the bible there is little virtue at many places and some writings are so awkward. For example when a prophet says that the jews will be besieged in war and will eat their own babies because they have no other food. This is so terrible, it makes me want to puke.

It might be useful to you to look at how Jesus used the scriptures. Read through one of the Gospels, and whenever Jesus quotes the OT, flip back there to the section he quoted and read it in context. Hold this question in your mind: Who did Jesus think the Father was?

May the Spirit give you all the wisdom you need, brother. :)
 
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theophilus40

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The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and it requires the help of the Spirit to understand it.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)
Everyone who is saved has the Holy Spirit living in him and receives help in understanding the Bible. I see that you are a member of a church which baptizes babies and considers them Christians because they have been baptized. But the Bible teaches that the way to become a Christian is to repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ. Perhaps your problem is that you aren't really saved and therefore don't have the Holy Spirit's help in understanding the Bible.
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
(2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV)
If you do want to find out whether or not you are really a Christian you can find some help here:

Answers for Seekers | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Back to the Bible - Jesus Who? -
 
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All very logical and humane thoughts. Keep in mind that their whole society ran as a theocracy/oligarchy...so what seems religious to us could have been just practical to them.

You are very nice in using the word "uncanny." ;-)

From what I understand of sacrifices, most of the animals were eaten by the priests or the people who sacrificed them. So it was much like saying grace before eating, only bigger and messier. We buy our highly-processed meats off the shelves now and don't have to think about where it came from; but I still have friends who grew up having to kill chickens for dinner.

Meat comes from an animal. We need protein for proper functioning, so eventually something uncomfortable must be done.

Dedicating the animal to God was an act of assigning a reverence to the killing of animals. They needed to eat-- but also knew the priests, widows and orphans needed to eat. A farmer offering what they had raised, was admission that the land still belonged to God, their crop success and rainfall wasn't completely their own doing... and then their future success was not about isolating themselves in an ivory tower -- but using their wealth to help others.

There are some good writings on the Passover Lamb, speaking of how it was painful for a farmer to take their favorite lamb, and give it up. It is a solemn moment to kill for oneself, and might even be compared with the native American reverence in hunting animals.

Having one central place for sacrificing also prevented the spread of disease that could come from farmers privately killing a cow and not having the refrigeration to eat it all. Wild carnivores would come into the neighborhoods... vultures...flies... rodents... then cholera and other diseases would spread from the rotting remains.

About the smell going up, I don't know...but most people pass a restaurant and sigh at the smell.
 
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lutherangerman

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Thanks Parsley, that made sense. I've also thought, well God is showing with the sacrifices that a human is worth more than an animal to him. Which might have already been a great idea --- a precursor to human rights ideas. But it still feels uncanny, imagine a temple as beautiful as Solomon's, something like a magnificent church, and in it it's all full of blood and gore. I'm thankful that God ended this system with Christ. I think we can be really glad to have Jesus. I'm more and more convinced that the jewish times were just like an experiment of God, producing stories and divine experiences to learn from. I wonder how life will be when Jesus has come back. Our Lord will surely lead us to new wonders and give us much new life and hope and love and beauty in His faithful love.
 
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justavisitor

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I decided perhaps I don't belong on this forum. I am also part of a church which baptises babies but probably does not condemn those who are not baptised. For you to suggest we do not have the Holy Spirit even if we have accepted Christ is very evil of you.
I am thinking of quitting using this forum. Just like I was saying wolves you are a brood of vipers

I can't stay around when people give useless advice is there not one righteous person among you who can discern between the right and the left and understand what does the LORD require of you but justice and mercy and faith in Daddy God
the very fact that you may be christian because your parents are christian is also just like baptising so that leaves salvation to very few which is those who have parents who were non christian and became christian the rest are just like me
what a demon you worship

I make it my ambition to be wise as a serpent but innocent as a dove as I worship my beautiful God and Father

you guys really waste my time your God will never save you in this world or make you useful in the world but God will be for us unto the end of all ages

to be successful for you you have to pretend to be nice while you worship your demon
whoever loves is born of God are you born of God?

you do just what I thought you don't have good logic but you just want me to leave my church by renouncing my baptism which I don't mind doing in my heart(but I don't have to. If there was such a monster of a God which you guys love to worship then my church is probably the most wise church to join -infact we can't know what pleases this monster) now that I am a believer but you want me to leave the walls of the church out of your mad hatred for God and the orthodox people

Anyway I applaud your condemnation (to its valued degree- it is a gift) as perhaps my church does condemn unbaptised babies to eternal suffering
 
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Ark100

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I believe in God, and in His Son Jesus, but I find much of religion really uncanny, including the bible. For example, the idea that God is appeased by the smell of burning meat or that forgiveness requires the shedding of blood.

But I wonder why religion had to be so uncanny. Isn't it possible to live in love and peace with your Father in Heaven? We learn virtue from Jesus who is the same as His Father, so we have a virtuous God who is a good example for us.

Is there perhaps no other solution but to discard some of the bible, saying it was a product of its time when people didn't know differently?
So we really have a God of love. But why was the bible so uncanny. So many children must have felt fear and horror of God...

Just first thing I would say is...If God had wanted, He would have asked those His Spirit inspired to write the Bible NOT to put the OT there. But the Spirit of God inspired the whole Bible. The OT is there for a reason. The NT is also there for a reason. Its not that God didn't know people would question some of these things, and to be honest its ok to question them. I also did question some of these things as well and asked 'but why'.

God may have been appeased by the burning of these sacrifices but in reality He does not desire these sacrifices.
God has had to put up with humans evil so much that He had to put them in their place. When God says He will not destroy mankind again after the Noah ark and wiping off of everyone else. God made this vow because He knew mankind could never change and if He did not make that vow and covenant, He would still keep destroying them and no one would be alive today anymore. SEE?

God has had to shift things, change things, make vows for the sake of mankind that He created. If God has destroyed all mankind completely that theres no one left, the enemy would have been happy but God will not allow this. He is God and is more powerful than the enemy and He gets to have the final say.

There wouldnt have been need for sacrifices or shedding of blood in the first place IF mankind is OBEDIENT to God and simply do what He says. But they are not.

Ps 40 :5-6
Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders you have done.
The things you planned for us
no one can recount to you;
were I to speak and tell of them,
they would be too many to declare.

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have piercedb,c;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require
.

Hosea 6:6-7
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Like Adam, they have broken the covenant
they were unfaithful to me there.

Micah 6:6-8
“With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?

Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Amos 5

I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them.
Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.

1 samuel 15:22
Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”


All of the above scriptures prove that God does NOT delight in sacrifices or interested in people appeasing Him with blood and things like that. He desires mercy. All He wants is mankind to LOVE Him, love others and OBEY Him and follow everything He says.

But man is very much against God a lot of times and they don't obey simple instructions. Proof is the israelites when God brought them out of Egypt.
Jesus came to set everything straight and to show the world the true nature of the Father. I would read carefully everything JESUS said, and also pray for the understanding from the Holy Spirit. And I would trust in God and let Him reveal Himself to you.
 
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imagine a temple as beautiful as Solomon's, something like a magnificent church, and in it it's all full of blood and gore. I'm thankful that God ended this system with Christ.
For sure. I think that your point on surrounding nations having sacrifice could have been a big part of it. The Bible goes on for a long time before God steps in with rules on how to do it. Ministers speak of the Cain and Abel story as the first example of God requiring sacrifice, but it was written as gestures of man, not requirements from God.
(Gestures that eventually led to more bloodshed.)

Lol it reminds me of family discussions on how everyone will handle gift exchanges. A little bloodshed happens there too, debating how a "real" Christmas or birthday should be done, "Showing people we care about them."

Gifts lead to competition and a lot of drama. Maybe that's what the Cain and Abel story was really about, lol.... no more gifts! Or at least offer them in secret. No more sacrifices!

Adding to ark's list --

Proverbs 17:1 Amplified

BETTER IS a dry morsel with quietness than a house full of feasting [on offered sacrifices] with strife.

Jeremiah 7:22

For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

But this thing I did command them: Listen to and obey My voice, and I will be your God and you will be My people; and walk in the whole way that I command you, that it may be well with you.

But they would not listen to and obey Me or bend their ear [to Me], but followed the counsels and the stubborn promptings of their own evil hearts and minds, and they turned their backs and went in reverse instead of forward.


Jeremiah 6:20

To what purpose does frankincense come to Me from Sheba and the sweet cane from a far country? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor are your sacrifices sweet or pleasing to Me.

There is certainly balance -- I'm not saying that it was completely anti-sacrifice, as there are many scriptures on how the priests and people should carry it out properly. But maybe some of that is just containment of what they inevitably revert toward doing.

People like bloodshed, even though they claim it repulses them.

Superbowl Sunday.


I'm more and more convinced that the jewish times were just like an experiment of God, producing stories and divine experiences to learn from.
Take a look at this:

Hebrews 9:9
Seeing that that first [outer portion of the] tabernacle was a parable (a visible symbol or type or picture of the present age). In it gifts and sacrifices are offered, and yet are incapable of perfecting the conscience or of cleansing and renewing the inner man of the worshiper.

For [the ceremonies] deal only with clean and unclean meats and drinks and different washings, [mere] external rules and regulations for the body imposed to tide the worshipers over until the time of setting things straight [of reformation, of the complete new order when Christ, the Messiah, shall establish the reality of what these things foreshadow--a better covenant].
 
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