Views on the Eastern and Western Catholic Churches?

[Soma Seer]

I would like to know how members of the EO faith view the Eastern Catholic Church (ECC) in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Do you view them as one and the same, or do you see the ECC as having certain teachings/practices that are more accurate than those of the RCC?

I just am trying to wrap my head around the fact that there is the EOC, ECC and RCC (Western Catholic Church). It gets a bit mind-boggling even before you add in all the Protestant faiths.


Thank you,

SS

 

[ArmyMatt]

usually the Eastern Catholics on paper agree with us, they are just in communion with Rome unfortunately.

 

[RileyG]

usually the Eastern Catholics on paper agree with us, they are just in communion with Rome unfortunately.

Really? That's very interesting. I didn't expect that answer.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I've met some Eastern Catholics who are Roman Catholics with the Divine Liturgy. They preach Roman Catholic doctrine using Eastern language, insist there's no difference between Eastern and Western theology, and will provide long, complicated, complex, bend-over-backwards theological proofs to back up their reasoning.

Then there are those who practice and believe basically exactly like Orthodoxy, except they pay lip service to the Roman Pope. They ignore anything contradictory, claiming they don't have to believe it because it's a Western issue/belief, or they just don't think about it. As long as they stay in an Eastern Catholic bubble, they can go on for a long time (and I don't mean that to sound as derogatory as it might come across).

Then there are those who are hiding out from Vatican II in the Eastern Catholic churches. Protestant converts who think they can be Eastern because they were received in an Eastern Church (Roman Canon law actually says that any Protestant convert is automatically Roman Catholic, just FYI), and Traddie Romans who are hiding out from the Novus Ordo. Sometimes the Traddie Romans try to change their new Eastern Parish to fit their ideal Roman parish - rosaries, Stations of the Cross, etc. Many of these end up becoming Orthodox after a stint in Eastern Catholicism.

Eastern Catholics are a mixed bag. They span those categories and everywhere in between. My feelings towards them depend on where they fall on the spectrum.

 

[InnerPhyre]

usually the Eastern Catholics on paper agree with us, they are just in communion with Rome unfortunately.

Actually, I find they agree with Rome on paper, but when asked, will agree with us.

 

[Soma Seer]

Eastern Catholics are a mixed bag. They span those categories and everywhere in between. My feelings towards them depend on where they fall on the spectrum.

I've read every reply up through InnerPhyre's and am surprised, in that I really thought people would say, "Oh, the ECC is definitely this way or that way in comparison to the RCC." That'll teach me.


SS

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Anhelyna is Eastern Catholic, and despite not being full-on Orthodox, she's a member of TAW, period. She's a great poster with a lot of insight into this. You might want to ask her about it.

Eastern Catholicism was never an option for me really. I was struggling with papal claims, the theology of the filioque, the break with the conciliar model of history of the Church, the Western views on atonement and sin, and when people told me to try Eastern Catholicism, it wasn't for me. I wanted the Orthodox faith. I just cannot accept the pope for what he claims to be. So no matter how lovely the liturgy, it's loyal to Rome and I 'can't go there.' It was the same with the Latin Mass. People recommended I go to that. I didn't even try. The contradictions between that liturgy and the Catholic novus ordo are stifling, and they're in league with Rome....so....I swam from the Tiber River to the Volga and Bosphorus! LOL

I've read every reply up through InnerPhyre's and am surprised, in that I really thought people would say, "Oh, the ECC is definitely this way or that way in comparison to the RCC." That'll teach me.


SS

 

[Shane R]

My experience with Eastern Catholic's matches Joseph Hazen's assessment. There are a variety of disparate parties that make their way into eastern Catholicism. I worshipped with an eastern Catholic church for a brief period after my recent move.

I think this heterogeneity is possible due to the status of eastern Catholicism in the US. It is a bit of a disregarded step-child to Rome. I think many eastern Catholics really see themselves as a bridge between east and west. In my experience they tend to be eastern in custom, western in polity, and a hybrid theologically. The churches seem to be very ecumenically minded. I have known EC churches to accept EO, OO, and even Anglicans with open arms - quicker than they accept RC.

 

[Anhelyna]

Oh boy - I'm staying out of this

Gurney has actually summed me up pretty accurately .
I was never RC [ Latin ] I was Received into the UGCC by Confession, Chrismation and then , the following day I received Communion for the first time as a Catholic .

I've often been asked my reason for staying EC - and the answer is always the same - I'm not ready to 'dox. I have a really good friend who is an Orthodox Priest monk and I know that if I said anything to him about 'doxing he'd give me a really hard time with his questions.

Life for me as an EC is not easy - I have a 100 mile round trip each Sunday for Liturgy [ and during the week if there is a Great Feast ] If Ican't get to my own parish then I try and go RO at my local RO Parish - they know I'm Catholic but welcome me warmly - never any questions and they know I respect them , their traditions and praxis.

 

[buzuxi02]

I would like to know how members of the EO faith view the Eastern Catholic Church (ECC) in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Do you view them as one and the same, or do you see the ECC as having certain teachings/practices that are more accurate than those of the RCC?

I just am trying to wrap my head around the fact that there is the EOC, ECC and RCC (Western Catholic Church). It gets a bit mind-boggling even before you add in all the Protestant faiths.


Thank you,

SS

I view them as one and the same. There's also the Chaldean catholic who are the counterparts to the Assyrian Church of the East. Then you have the Syriac catholics who are the counterparts to the non-chalcedonian syrian OO. The Melkites (EC) are the counterparts to the Antiochan Orthodox. There is even a small group of Coptic Catholics under Patriarch Naguib counterpart to the Coptic OO.

Then there's the Maronites an Eastern Christian sect that held to monotheletism but united with Rome in the 16th century or so?.

Lets not even get into Indian christianity. All these groups and sects act as an umbrella group under Rome. As to "how" these groups ended up as subsidiaries under Rome is controversial and why eastern Christianity views Rome with mistrust and suspicion. Some of these groups are more latinized than others. Some may hold to the identical views as the western Latin Rite doctrines but many times they don't. Don't tell that to the Latin laity as they are in denial.

 

[SuperCloud]

I just am trying to wrap my head around the fact that there is the EOC, ECC and RCC (Western Catholic Church). It gets a bit mind-boggling even before you add in all the Protestant faiths.

I have an opinion on this. I'm not God, so, my opinion comes with human fallibility.

I was born in 1971 and reared (born too) in the USA and in Roman Catholicism. I had no idea there was ever a Latin Mass until I was in adulthood and learned that over the internet.

My opinion stems not from a theological lens but a sociological lens.

And I'm sure many will take umbrage at this especially if they are American (more accurately: United Statesians)

My observation within the USA:

Most Catholics want to be Americans, that means being ever more Protestant, and most Eastern Rite Catholics want to be in union with the biggest, most powerful, most prestigious religious organization in Christianity (Catholicism) if they don't want to be mainstream Catholics. An Eastern Catholic is like a so-called "ethnicity" in the USA: exotic. Every white American has an ethnicity they descend from, but only the Catholic immigrants like the Italians, Irish, Poles, and Germans were called "ethnic whites." So, the were both American and "exotic."

My personal opinion is that neither "truth" nor a bloody martyrdom love of Christ is behind the psychological motivations.

Very few nations on earth are like Cuba. That tiny Spartan of a nation defiant of the almighty powerful on earth. Most nations trip over themselves to be aligned and identified with the most powerful and most prestigious.

That same psychological disposition is behind conservative Catholics remaining Roman Catholic as well as their devil-like hatred of Michael Voris or those of Remnant TV. (albeit, Michael Voris can come across as mean, and he's less tolerant than me, but at least he picks fights with the powerful--most conservative and liberal Catholics bow before the mighty and celebrated and bully the weaker.)

Basically I'm saying it has to do with prestige and power. Perceptions of those things. The importance of them.

I'm no theologian. My major is biology and I've taken a few philosophy courses. So, I don't claim to know or understand the complex weaving of theological arguments. But as a "dumb" and simple lay person, the question has continually bothered me about Catholicism: if you claim to be so right about morals and faith, why are you constantly apologizing for being wrong about morals and faith?

I'm one of the powerless. I have no prestige. Therefore, conservative Catholics or Eastern Catholics will have to attack me. They won't fight the strong though. They might call me "stupid" a "troll" or if I let them know I'm half black be sure the long American tradition of aggressively attacking my intelligence will come. But they won't sufficiently address the contradictions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Actually, I find they agree with Rome on paper, but when asked, will agree with us.

I just meant that if one looks at the councils that came out of Rome after the Schism, the Eastern Catholics are condemned along with us. modern Popes tend to downplay that though.

 

[RileyG]

Oh boy - I'm staying out of this

Gurney has actually summed me up pretty accurately .
I was never RC [ Latin ] I was Received into the UGCC by Confession, Chrismation and then , the following day I received Communion for the first time as a Catholic .

I've often been asked my reason for staying EC - and the answer is always the same - I'm not ready to 'dox. I have a really good friend who is an Orthodox Priest monk and I know that if I said anything to him about 'doxing he'd give me a really hard time with his questions.

Life for me as an EC is not easy - I have a 100 mile round trip each Sunday for Liturgy [ and during the week if there is a Great Feast ] If Ican't get to my own parish then I try and go RO at my local RO Parish - they know I'm Catholic but welcome me warmly - never any questions and they know I respect them , their traditions and praxis.

Thanks Anhelyna for your insight.

 

[prodromos]

Does anyone have a link to the respective sizes of each of the non-Latin rites in the Catholic Church as a whole? I would like to provide some perspective on the almost insignificant size of the Eastern Catholics with respect to their Roman brothers but don't have that information at hand.

I remember it being less than 1%.

 

[buzuxi02]

Are you referring to all of them? I imagine the largest group are the Indian Christians who are further divided into two subsets. Keep in mind before the Latin missionaries arrived in India, al thel Christians in that country were in communion with the Assyrian Church and had their own autonomy. Today the 24 million indian christians are divided into what 8 seperate christians of "st thomas" sects?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The trouble I have with Catholicism (lots of troubles, actually!) is that they have so many contradictions within this supposed one, big, happy family umbrella!

For example, if you read about how to take communion, everywhere it says "standing is the proper mode for receiving communion in the Catholic Church, the correct, respectful posture," and then you get on the website of the Catholic parish up in Fresno that holds a Latin Tridentine Mass each week, and it says, "one beautiful thing about the Latin Mass, is the return to the most pious and holy manner of receiving Holy Communion--kneeling in humility before the Lord."

HUH?

Then you have the Roman Latins. They proudly say the filioque and proclaim it as important doctrine! They stretch reality and tell you that St. Augustine and his contemporaries LOVED the idea of the filioque. Catholicism loved the filioque SO MUCH that they were willing to split with the Holy Orthodox Church over it!!!! That's pretty powerful testimony to how important the filioque is, right? WRONG! The Catholic Church doesn't make the Eastern Catholics say the filioque in the Creed!?!? It's key, essential, powerful doctrine, but a whole segment of their population can behave just like the "schismatic" Orthodox Church that they jettisoned in 1054? Odd? I'd say so!

For the Eastern Catholic, at least many if not most of whom I've dialogued with, the Stations of the Cross are an annoying imposition on them. They don't want to see the Stations in their parish buildings. My question is---WHY NOT? They don't reject the tradition of what happened in the stations, so why are they a nuisance or negative thing?

The theology of the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is VERY different from the theology of the unleavened wafers in the West. It's not a stylistic preference, it's a concrete theological reasoning that informs the Orthodox approach. The Catholic Church prefers the missing yeast to mimic the Jewish tradition. How can these two live side by side? From the 800's AD to 1054 AD, this was something that annoyed the Orthodox East to no end. They found this empty wafer approach hard to live with. They pinched their nose in the end.

Then there's the married clergy in one, single celibate in the other.

Two views of atonement that are quite different. One legal and sacrificially-oriented, the other medicinal and focused on conquering death.

And when you talk to Eastern Catholics, I've never met one that would take communion in a regular RC parish with the Novus Ordo Mass? If they're one church, one would think it would be a no-brainer?

I don't understand Eastern Catholicism at all or the Roman allowance of it? It's a strange alliance to be sure. I wonder how much of it is political and the happenstance of historical developments with politics and intrigues between nations.

How can one live the strict, rigid, legalistic, formulaic method of the Catechism of the Catholic Church WHILE living within the mindset of a non-legalistic, spiritual father-oriented, very different approach to sin, etc.?

I don't know. I throw up my hands with this stuff. Anhelyna has her reasoning for being E.C. I don't understand it, but I love that lady to death! She's probably better at being Orthodox than I am, and she's not "all in" yet!

 

[Anhelyna]

OK - I often [ well sort of regularly ] Receive [ Gurney you know better than to use the term 'take' ] Communion in an RC Church but only on weekdays - Sundays I'm in my own parish. I don't Receive from a lay person though - normally I ensure it's the Priest [ who is my Confessor ] If I go RC I don't have the choice of a parish - it's the nearest one - I'm not sure where there is an EF one and frankly I'm not worried . Mass is Mass is Mass - no matter the language [ says she who is used to DL in Ukrainian and she doesn't speak Ukrainian !]

I've been to two absolutely wonderful Liturgies recently

My own parish - Transfiguration - our Priest looked at me , looked round the Church and said "English ?" And so it was done - quietly , beautifully and fully in English [ except for one prayer - his -- " No-one who is bound to carnal desires ....." which was in Ukrainian ]. He even preached in English ! Occasionally he had pronunciation problems and looked to me for help. But it really was beautiful - and we did have the blessing of baskets and anointing too .

The other was when we were visited by an RC Parish [ where we have a tiny community which Father visits monthly ] who had been to Lourdes and had Mass in the UGCC Church there so visited us for their re-union . They brought their priest with them - and all necessary books and vestments - there were 40 of them including one severely handicapped man . However there was a problem and I suddenly realised there was when I spotted our Priest about to start Proskomidia [ he's bi-ritual ] so went over and raised my eyebrows and was asked to do a bit of quick teaching Yup - no-one remembered to bring any hosts Fortunately Father had brought a couple of phosphora with him that morning

Two priests - each in their own very different vestments serving the same Liturgy - the people taking part and when it got to Communion , again we quietly reminded them how to receive - there were no problems , and afterwards everyone said how much it had meant to them Receiving as we did . Their handicapped man , it appears normally does have problems Receiving - but he had not with our way

There seems to have been a follow up to that visit - on Father's last visit to serve DL there to our little group, he found several from the Pilgrimage group there as well

 

[StRestlessHeart333]

usually the Eastern Catholics on paper agree with us, they are just in communion with Rome unfortunately.

Can you give an example please?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I would like to know how members of the EO faith view the Eastern Catholic Church (ECC) in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Do you view them as one and the same, or do you see the ECC as having certain teachings/practices that are more accurate than those of the RCC?

I just am trying to wrap my head around the fact that there is the EOC, ECC and RCC (Western Catholic Church). It gets a bit mind-boggling even before you add in all the Protestant faiths.


Thank you,

SS

It is actually quite simple. If they are in communion with the Roman pope, they are members of the church of Rome, no matter what they call themselves.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you give an example please?

well, from what I gathered they reject the use of the filioque in their use of the Creed for one, and in terms of practice they do not treat the Pope the way that the Latin Rite folks do, but more of the first among equals role.