Unregenerate Israel And Christians

[berachah]

In the first place, my only "theory" is that God means what He says in the Bible (assuming, of course, that by "the Bible" we mean the respective books as God gave them, of which we have reasonably accurate copies.)

I have never seen even one scripture presented anywhere, that expressly states your theory. You can post a few that, when taken by themselves, could be interpreted to have that meaning. But there is not even one that expressly states it.

On the other hand, I have already posted many scriptures that explicitly state that there will be revival of Israel, some even in this thread. These scriptures contain many details that were unquestionably not fulfilled in the return from Babylon. There is no escape from this fact, except to continue to insist that these scriptures simply do not mean what they explicitly say.

mmmm...I thought so

 

[berachah]

Hosea 6:Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Revived after two days, restored on the third. Think one day is as 1000 years.

By the time Israel turns 70, God will be reigning from restored Jerusalem, Israel on the 3rd day.

Interesting theory, but the Jewish nation has not yet returned or even decided to return to the Lord...so looks like we must still be before the 1st 1000 years.

 

[lesjude]

mmmm...I thought so

When Israel is revived or not revived is not the important issue. The issue is that most Christians are blindly supporting a murderous agenda of unregenerate Israel instead of what Jesus says to do. Live Matthew 5, 6 and 7, do Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8, plus give up paganism (xmas and Easter). The Jews cannot live the scripture listed and despise Christianity for their paganism. They also despise the US for many things.

 

[berachah]

When Israel is revived or not revived is not the important issue. The issue is that most Christians are blindly supporting a murderous agenda of unregenerate Israel instead of what Jesus says to do. Live Matthew 5, 6 and 7, do Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8, plus give up paganism (xmas and Easter). The Jews cannot live the scripture listed and despise Christianity for their paganism. They also despise the US for many things.

I take your point and would agree in broad terms this is irrelevant....but when you have Christian organisations with massive support influencing US policy based on a false doctrine around modern Israel, I think it is important to expose the falseness.

Christianity and Christians are under great spiritual threat and many are lukewarm and turning from the faith. This is the battle that is relevant to OT prophecy as it pertains to the end times. I wish to God we would all be bound to pray daily for the peace of the heavenly Jersualem (which is the Body of Christ) rather than the heathen copy on this earth that is presenting itself as of the Lord. Should we do that Im sure the name and glory of Christ would flourish on this earth..

 

[JuanP]

When Israel is revived or not revived is not the important issue. The issue is that most Christians are blindly supporting a murderous agenda of unregenerate Israel instead of what Jesus says to do. Live Matthew 5, 6 and 7, do Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8, plus give up paganism (xmas and Easter). The Jews cannot live the scripture listed and despise Christianity for their paganism. They also despise the US for many things.

Genesis 12: 1-3 has not been rescinded, so I choose to bless Israel.
I do this by supporting the Christians in Israel who are working to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. I also support the nation in prayer.
Israel is hardly a "murderous agenda", you do like to use emotive words!
The Jews' eyes are currently blinded, it is part of God's plan and they will at the perfect time be reopened and all Israel will be saved.
(Romans 11: 25-26)
Salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22)

 

[berachah]

Genesis 12: 1-3 has not been rescinded, so I choose to bless Israel.
I do this by supporting the Christians in Israel who are working to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. I also support the nation in prayer.
Israel is hardly a "murderous agenda", you do like to use emotive words!
The Jews' eyes are currently blinded, it is part of God's plan and they will at the perfect time be reopened and all Israel will be saved.
(Romans 11: 25-26)
Salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22)

Praying for the Jews is good. Supporting their restoration to Israel and supposing it is of God is not. Convincing Christians to focus on natural Jersualem rather than the Body of Christ and the spiritual battle that is at hand is directly opposed to the work of Christ.

Supporting Jews in their unbelief and opposition to Christ will hardly open their eyes.... The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, of the righteousness of Christ and of the judgement to come.....now of which can take place when we tell Jews they are currently the chosen people and all is good with God with their occupation of Palestine.

 

[JuanP]

Praying for the Jews is good. Supporting their restoration to Israel and supposing it is of God is not. Convincing Christians to focus on natural Jersualem rather than the Body of Christ and the spiritual battle that is at hand is directly opposed to the work of Christ.

Supporting Jews in their unbelief and opposition to Christ will hardly open their eyes.... The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, of the righteousness of Christ and of the judgement to come.....now of which can take place when we tell Jews they are currently the chosen people and all is good with God with their occupation of Palestine.

I don't think that you have the embargo on deciding what is good and what is not.
You obviously have taken a partisan position by declaring the Jews are "occupying Palestine"
Aren't you occupying Aborigine land?

 

[berachah]

I don't think that you have the embargo on deciding what is good and what is not.
You obviously have taken a partisan position by declaring the Jews are "occupying Palestine"
Aren't you occupying Aborigine land?

Like everyone on this forum I am offering my opinion based on my revelation and interpretation of Biblical prophecy. I dont base my opinion on what the Zionist owned media feeds me. The Jews were restored to Israel by Zionists convincing the west that they were entitled to the land. Every since they then they have curried and manipulated support from Christians to sustain their existince in Palestine.

Quite frankly they are entitled to get whatever support they can to be there....but I reject the theory that they have been restored by God and therefore Christians must support their every move. That is the big con that needs to be exposed.

Like all Christians I hope for their salvation (because scripture says their reconciliation will be the defeat of death) but I am not deluded into thinking they are in God's will at this time.

With regards Australia, I think you are right that this land is occupied and indeed stolen. There should be national repentence, reconciliation and restitution for the thousands of Aborigines dispossesed and murdered. I guess the same as what should happen with regards the way the Jews have treated the Lebanese & Palestinians.. Only of course in the eyes of some Christians their action is legitimate "because God is on their side."

 

[Markusanthem]

Interesting theory, but the Jewish nation has not yet returned or even decided to return to the Lord...so looks like we must still be before the 1st 1000 years.

It only takes a moment to turn to the Lord. He has revived them just in time for the prophetic end-time events.

Zech 12:The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

 

[berachah]

It only takes a moment to turn to the Lord. He has revived them just in time for the prophetic end-time events.

What do you mean revived....spiritually? Perhaps the baptist church in Jersualem previously bombed and with ongoing incidents of persecution from Jews might disagree with their faith being revived.. Or maybe Jews for Jesus can share about their persecution and rejection? The fact is that although there are always Jews accepting Christ (even from the day of Pentecost) the nation itself and its faith is dead opposed to son of God Jesus Christ and those that confess him. The 1st stage of revival is always recognition of sin....then repentence.

Zech 12:The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations that are in the 4 quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and the fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them....Rev 20:7-9.

The end time battle in this dispensation is against the Body of Christ. The devil is not interested in the natural Jews as they are already well on their way to hell as we speak. When they are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ (not reconciled to natural Jersualem, not the temple, not the covenant of Moses) at the end of the times of the gentiles, then they will become the focus of the devil as they will be the catalyst for the end time revival of the faith (because by the end of this age Christianity will be in bondage). And the focus will not be on their natural Jewish lineage, (because that no longer defines a Jew) but on their spiritual born again status, that of being spiritual Jews, in Christ and a direct opponent of Satan.

The devil is only interested in defeating the work of God and destroying the salvation of mankind. The situation in the middle east is a fraud of the devil and the only thing that will be birthed out of natural Jerusalem is a platform for the antichrist. Many will be deluded by this fraud, including Christians who are carnal and unable to grasp the spiritual parallels of what God has shown us in the Old Testament.

 

[Markusanthem]

What do you mean revived....spiritually? Perhaps the baptist church in Jersualem previously bombed and with ongoing incidents of persecution from Jews might disagree with their faith being revived.. Or maybe Jews for Jesus can share about their persecution and rejection? The fact is that although there are always Jews accepting Christ (even from the day of Pentecost) the nation itself and its faith is dead opposed to son of God Jesus Christ and those that confess him. The 1st stage of revival is always recognition of sin....then repentence.

There are tons of scripture that shows when, why and how Israel is restored, even how they repent and accept Christ - one of which I just quoted in Zechariah 12.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.




Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

[Markusanthem]

The end time battle in this dispensation is against the Body of Christ. The devil is not interested in the natural Jews as they are already well on their way to hell as we speak. When they are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ (not reconciled to natural Jersualem, not the temple, not the covenant of Moses) at the end of the times of the gentiles, then they will become the focus of the devil as they will be the catalyst for the end time revival of the faith (because by the end of this age Christianity will be in bondage). And the focus will not be on their natural Jewish lineage, (because that no longer defines a Jew) but on their spiritual born again status, that of being spiritual Jews, in Christ and a direct opponent of Satan.

This line of thinking regarding Israel does not line up with scripture.

The New Covenant was originally for the Jews. Because of their sins, they were set aside (in part) to allow the gentiles to come in. Once the "fulness of the gentiles" is come in, all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Markusanthem]

Zec 8:22And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."

Zec 8:23This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

Their "natural Jewish lineage" is going to matter, according to God's prophecies.

 

[Markusanthem]

Here's another one:

Zeck 48:29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.

 

[berachah]

There are tons of scripture that shows when, why and how Israel is restored, even how they repent and accept Christ - one of which I just quoted in Zechariah 12.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Perhaps you haven't read all my comments. I have in fact confirmed that Israel will be restored. (That is not a point of difference at all) The point of difference I have with Christians that follow false teaching is that natural Israel and Jerusalem are irrelevant to end time prophecies.

Most of the quotes by people on this forum supporting this false teaching use scriptures that are relevant to the destrution of Jersualem, the Babylonian captivity and the restoration of Israel therafter.

Those natural events have happened and the devil is attempting to re-create them in natural Jersualem a second time only this time he will be the "Messiah" with signs and wonders.

The fact of the matter is that in this dispensation which Christ ushered in, we have spiritual dimension to all the OT prophesies. The very things that took place in the OT to natural Jersualem are happening again in the spiritual realm....and not to godless Jews who have rejected the new covenant and Christ, but they are happening to the Body of Christ, to spiritual Jews, which includes those Jews of natural lineage.

I suggest each person interested in the matter should get spiritual; fast and seek understanding out of the Bible about these things..

 

[Markusanthem]

Perhaps you haven't read all my comments. I have in fact confirmed that Israel will be restored. (That is not a point of difference at all) The point of difference I have with Christians that follow false teaching is that natural Israel and Jerusalem are irrelevant to end time prophecies.

Most of the quotes by people on this forum supporting this false teaching use scriptures that are relevant to the destrution of Jersualem, the Babylonian captivity and the restoration of Israel therafter.

Those natural events have happened and the devil is attempting to re-create them in natural Jersualem a second time only this time he will be the "Messiah" with signs and wonders.

The fact of the matter is that in this dispensation which Christ ushered in, we have spiritual dimension to all the OT prophesies. The very things that took place in the OT to natural Jersualem are happening again in the spiritual realm....and not to godless Jews who have rejected the new covenant and Christ, but they are happening to the Body of Christ, to spiritual Jews, which includes those Jews of natural lineage.

I suggest each person interested in the matter should get spiritual; fast and seek understanding out of the Bible about these things..

There's certainly no harm in fasting and praying and seeking understanding.

The church that Jesus built, the spiritual church, that is born again is not going to have what happened to natural Jerusalem happen to them. That is unscriptural.

The church did not replace the Jews. Read Romans 11. Blindness, in part, happened to Israel. The gentiles are ingrafted until the fulness of the gentiles is come in and then, it says, all Israel will be saved.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. The New Covenant was for Israel. In part, they rejected Jesus and the believing gentiles are being ingrafted until the fulness of the gentiles is come in. Then Jesus comes and saves them.

 

[berachah]

The current problem with Christianity is about the same problem Jesus faced when trying to usher in the new covenant...the Jews kept thinking natural whereas he was talking spiritual.

One thing is certain there will be a great falling away of the Body, due in part to this fascination with natural Israel.

Thank God at the end the Jews will be revived and become partakers of the new covenant in Christ. Thank God that they will bring about the end time restoration because gentile Christians are so easily misled and are apparently not capable of such things..

The church spend a great amount of time teaching false doctrines like titheing money, the importing of secular music into the chuirch and building secular, natural focused ministries, but we seem unable to teack spiritual disciplies and give spiritual understanding on things..

 

[Markusanthem]

One thing is certain there will be a great falling away of the Body, due in part to this fascination with natural Israel.

That is not scriptural. There is no scripture that says that.

The body of Christ will only increase in number as the Day approaches and our departure ("gathering together unto him"), not falling away, occurs.

Also, there is coming "a latter rain", another outpouring of the Spirit, just before the Day of the Lord begins.

Thank God at the end the Jews will be revived and become partakers of the new covenant in Christ. Thank God that they will bring about the end time restoration because gentile Christians are so easily misled and are apparently not capable of such things..

Anyone who is born of the Spirit will not be misled.

Jhn 10:4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

The church spend a great amount of time teaching false doctrines like titheing money, the importing of secular music into the chuirch and building secular, natural focused ministries, but we seem unable to teack spiritual disciplies and give spiritual understanding on things..

God teaches us, just as He promised. Those who listen to Him will never follow another.

If people are following off after something else, they are not one of us and they won't be ready.

We can't force people to listen to God. It is a choice.

 

[berachah]

That is not scriptural. There is no scripture that says that.

The body of Christ will only increase in number as the Day approaches and our departure ("gathering together unto him"), not falling away, occurs.

Also, there is coming "a latter rain", another outpouring of the Spirit, just before the Day of the Lord begins.
Anyone who is born of the Spirit will not be misled.

Jhn 10:4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."
God teaches us, just as He promised. Those who listen to Him will never follow another.
If people are following off after something else, they are not one of us and they won't be ready.
We can't force people to listen to God. It is a choice.

It is interesting that the Jews had the same mindset when the prophets arose and began to prophesy about the destruction of Israel and Judah.

And this is probably why we have such compromise in the church today. People think because they have received the Holy Spirit they are entitled to do whatever because they have received the blessing.

The NT speaks of 3 groups.....sinners, the ungodly and the righteous..perhaps you should consider who the ungodly are...

Romans 8 speaks clearly of living by the Spirit and not by the flesh and Jesus warned of the things I mention in Matt 24.And 2 Thess 2:3 speaks of the falling away.

But each to their own belief on these matters....what I do content with here is that in this dispensation it is about the Christians and the Body of Christ, not natural Jerusalem and natural Jews.

 

[John 07]

The gentiles are ingrafted until the fulness of the gentiles is come in and then, it says, all Israel will be saved.

until the fulness of the gentiles is come in. Then Jesus comes and saves them.

curious, where in the Greek text do you get the word 'then' ?