Unorthodox views of the Creation story - did Adam and Eve know right from wrong?

[adhidarmawijaya]

Does God have some “need” for glory?

We can understand only from His charity by His words, not depend on our own.
He is the alpha and omega, ----> every things should come from Him.
Why should He create all things ?.

I get the “glory” answer lots of times, so a tree brings glory to God by being a tree, what is the difference with man?

Can people not bring glory to God and other people do bring glory to God, so what is the difference?

All His creation shall bring glory to Him,cause all the glory should be for Him only, that is why He creates , but God has a special plan with men where from them they shall glorify Him with their mouth,mind and hearth .

That does tells us what they will do but not why they were made in the first place? Why did God not make angels or sheep to do that?

Angels do not inhabit the earth, are not like and resemble to God , neither sheep .
Only men are.

Did Adam and Eve bring glory to God on earth by what they did?

No they did not,
If all His special creatures (names are listed in the book of life before the creation of the world) He created on a same time ( not only A and E but all in once ) , and all of them He placed in Eden with no satan there , and after reached the time where satans were thrown to the lake of fire, then they were asked : " why do you be here in this wonderful and so glorious land without sick, old, sorrows and not being thrown to the lof like satans ?", they surely answered: " absolutely yes , cause we are the glorious creatures , we are created like and resemble to God " ---> does their answer glorify God ?.
If every things run as now we are , then finally we are asked : " How can you be here in this new earth full of happiness and without tears ,not as them(satans and his followers) who are thrown entirely to the lof ", they surely answer : " actually there is no difference between us , we started as the spiritually dead too, who with our own will we always oppose and rebel Him, but how we can be here is only come from His Glory and His Charity " ----> this is the glorifying statement (the purpose of creation ).

If Eve was made suitable for Adam would that mean differently emotionally, psychologically, and maybe even intellectually and not just with different plumbing?

Eve was made to meet the needs of Adam, so Eve might have some lesser qualities than Adam even though Adam can meet the needs of Eve?

God gave Adam special maid for His goodness ( just only one woman among all women that fit to him , this special maid is to help him cause he is now imperfect creature ( incomplete rib = unfortified )),see Gen6 to explore profoundly about this.

Does sin bring glory to God?

Before men exist , the sources of sin already existed , God only uses them for His sake to bring Him Glory.

This physical body change is not in there. Their bodies with the help of the fruit from the tree of life could last forever.

Glorious state = eternal state , eternal dead also = eternal state.
Gen3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Now the man has become like one of us and has knowledge of what is good and what is bad. He must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever."
In this eternal realm they will never be able to bear their kids.
Suggestion : find the relation between " why should God create A and E first( not all the names listed in the book of life )" and "Rom8:20 For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope" and "Eph1:4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love"

The Garden story does not present the idea all humans are spiritually dead from then on?

It does not talk about “salvation” per say?

Gen2:17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.

There are some relationships among these verses that can help us understand the substances God want us to be understood .

Gen2:3 He blessed the seventh day and set it apart as a special day, because by that day he had completed his creation and stopped working.

Exod31:13 to tell the people of Israel, "Keep the Sabbath, my day of rest, because it is a sign between you and me for all time to come, to show that I, the LORD, have made you my own people.
31:14 You must keep the day of rest, because it is sacred. Whoever does not keep it, but works on that day, is to be put to death.
31:15 You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is a solemn day of rest dedicated to me. Whoever does any work on that day is to be put to death.

Hebr4:9 As it is, however, there still remains for God's people a rest like God's resting on the seventh day.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

We c

Thank .

So have you guys answered the OP, did God hold Adam responsible for doing something he did not know was wrong?

 

[adhidarmawijaya]

So have you guys answered the OP, did God hold Adam responsible for doing something he did not know was wrong?

If Adam and Eve finally were condemned to dead,
So they surely asked to God : " Oh God , why are You so unfair , How can You save our offspring , but leave us in death ?, were not us created by Your own Hand ?, were our offspring either ?, why ?".
Actually Adam and Eve were saved,

Gen3:21 And the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for Adam and his wife, and he clothed them.

 

[2KnowHim]

And what is God's clothing?
And could this be the very thing that they were lacking but did not know until they ate from the tree? After all the scripture says "they were both Naked and not ashamed".
What was in that fruit that caused them to Know they were naked and make them ashamed now, where they wasn't before?
And why does God call their name Adam, and not Adam and Eve?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If Adam and Eve finally were condemned to dead,
So they surely asked to God : " Oh God , why are You so unfair , How can You save our offspring , but leave us in death ?, were not us created by Your own Hand ?, were our offspring either ?, why ?".
Actually Adam and Eve were saved,

Gen3:21 And the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for Adam and his wife, and he clothed them.

Not my question. Were they punished for doing something they did not was wrong?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And what is God's clothing?
And could this be the very thing that they were lacking but did not know until they ate from the tree? After all the scripture says "they were both Naked and not ashamed".
What was in that fruit that caused them to Know they were naked and make them ashamed now, where they wasn't before?
And why does God call their name Adam, and not Adam and Eve?

Not my question, though closer at least. Were they punished for something they did not know was wrong for them to do?

 

[adhidarmawijaya]

And what is God's clothing?
And could this be the very thing that they were lacking but did not know until they ate from the tree? After all the scripture says "they were both Naked and not ashamed".
What was in that fruit that caused them to Know they were naked and make them ashamed now, where they wasn't before?
And why does God call their name Adam, and not Adam and Eve?

And what is God's clothing?

Isa61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

What was in that fruit that caused them to Know they were naked and make them ashamed now, where they wasn't before?

Gen2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Before they ate the fruit , their only will was positive will (obedient etc to God), in this state they felt all the things on them there was no lack ( their nakedness was included), after they ate they began to examine with their body what should they cover to prevent some thing that could make lustful the opposite sex (bad think began to emerge ),now their will was only negative will (rebel etc to God,cause they were spiritually dead creatures since that time).

 

[adhidarmawijaya]

Not my question, though closer at least. Were they punished for something they did not know was wrong for them to do?

After the law was launched where there was a penalty , they should be punished regardless how they came to that ( cheated ), this was one case, and redeeming was another case.

 

[2KnowHim]

Not my question, though closer at least. Were they punished for something they did not know was wrong for them to do?

Disobedience towards God has it's on punishment, God didn't punish them, He didn't have to, now sin lies at their door.

 

[2KnowHim]

What was the fruit they ate of?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Neither did Adam)
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (So did it with Adam)
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; (and so it was with Adam in the Garden)

The tree of the KOGAE was the Law, This is the only way the Accuser can do what he does best it's when we are under law, for no one can keep the law, except Christ therefore he can accuse us. Why do you think it was him who approached Eve and tempted her to eat? Because of that very reason.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Disobedience towards God has it's on punishment, God didn't punish them, He didn't have to, now sin lies at their door.

So kicking them out of the "Garden" and denying access to whatever one sees the Tree of Life as. removing Himself from them...etc those are not punishments inflicted by God?
So in your view it would not be God doing those things to them as "punishment" for having done what they did. Would you say then that it is the Evil Entity in your view of reality that in a sense, rewards them for following him?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What was the fruit they ate of?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Neither did Adam)
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (So did Adam)
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (So did it with Adam)
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; (and so it was with Adam in the Garden)

The tree of the KOGAE was the Law, This is the only way the Accuser can do what he does best it's when we are under law, for no one can keep the law, except Christ therefore he can accuse us. Why do you think it was him who approached Eve and tempted her to eat? Because of that very reason.

So the serpent is the Evil Entity you say pre-existed with God and had to exist because God (All Good) exists?

Interesting though that in your view Good obviously has power over your Evil Entity as the story has God punishing that creature. So this Evil Entity and God are not equals?

I of course do not agree the Tree represents the Law - as God says the law is written on our hearts, it is part of us - which makes sense if one agrees we were made to love, serve and know Him would we have to know what is Good and what is not. It is this knowledge in our nature which drives our conscience, which we would not be able to do lacking such knowledge. Eve expressed this knowledge before she ate, knowing that thing she was about to do she aught not to.

So in this view the "knowledge" gained by what they did - sinning - (and it does not really matter in this view what the fruit or treee really is) is that they could look at anything good (like the "fruit of that tree") and first create in their mind a desire to do with that good something they know they should not. Desire is making something actually not right (not good) a goal for the will - so that we then can act to do that which we already knew we should not. In doing that we are in essence deciding for ourselves what is good for us, rather than listening to our conscience tell us differently. Our conscience could not do that for us if had nothing written on our hearts by God to guide us in that regard. We also could not justly be held accountable for doing something wrong if we did not know it was wrong.

So the only reason nakedness becomes embarrassing is when we (and others in viewing it) can form in their minds, just as we know we can by our own thoughts, a disordered thought about our bodies. Without such thoughts, being naked would be no more embarrassing than eating - both being perfectly natural the way He made us. And this explains why suddenly Adam and Eve would be embarrassed at being seen naked. Having created disorder "within their members" as Saint Paul would say, by their first sin they have made it so thoughts of things to do with those bodies that would not have occurred to them before as something possibly desirable, their nakedness becomes an embarrassment because they now have that knowledge. And it would be not only knowing that they could have such thoughts, but that others in seeing them naked could have similar thoughts. Knowing something is wrong and yet desiring it is embarrassing. So they hid.

 

[2KnowHim]

So kicking them out of the "Garden" and denying access to whatever one sees the Tree of Life as. removing Himself from them...etc those are not punishments inflicted by God?
So in your view it would not be God doing those things to them as "punishment" for having done what they did. Would you say then that it is the Evil Entity in your view of reality that in a sense, rewards them for following him?

Of Course not, it just is, because of the state that Adam had become.
Isa_59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
God never leaves us, sin is what separated us from God.

 

[RDKirk]

In light of that and the lie Satan told, the "opening of the eyes" would then be a reference to the awareness that they could form in their own minds (and against that which is in all our hearts - against their nature - which is against the One who gave us that nature) a subjective view of what is good. And that is how we sin. Prior to hearing that lie Satan told, the thought would not have occurred to them that God was intentionally keeping something from them that rather than being truly wrong, would actually benefit them. Whatever that "fruit" was, it was not meant for them - meaning it was not made for them to eat, so it would be against the nature God gave them, "unnatural" for them to do so. So they desired, envied something which was never intended (natural) for them.

In sinning, we take what we know to be wrong and convince our self that at least this first time it is not wrong for me - that it is actually for me something to be desired, envied and obtained. With repetition that gets easier. In doing so we place ourselves OVER God, saying MY will not Thy Will be done.

That is it. That is the nugget of it. And the determination that man can subjectively decide what is good and evil is what God means by "knowing good and evil"--not objectively but making subjective judgments. This is authority of gods (or specifically, God), which is why God said, "They are now like us, knowing good and evil." That was a statement about man assuming the authority of God.

I'll interject here that good and evil are not objective in the first place, they are subjective to God. Adam and Eve made them subjective to man.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That is it. That is the nugget of it. And the determination that man can subjectively decide what is good and evil is what God means by "knowing good and evil"--not objectively but making subjective judgments. This is authority of gods (or specifically, God), which is why God said, "They are now like us, knowing good and evil." That was a statement about man assuming the authority of God.

I'll interject here that good and evil are not objective in the first place, they are subjective to God. Adam and Eve made them subjective to man.

amen

 

[2KnowHim]

Nakedness speaks of being unclothed with God's Righteousness, which can also be seen as "Identity" and "Nature".
This was something that Adam and Eve possessed before they ate, and if it was revealed to them after they ate, then it could not be anything other than the Law.

Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
naked. Hebrew. 'arum, a Homonym. The same spelling as word rendered "subtil" in Gen_3:1.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

H6174
ערם ערום
‛ârôm ‛ârôm
aw-rome', aw-rome'
From H6191 (in its original sense); nude, either partially or totally: - naked.

aw-ram'
A primitive root; properly to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived sense (through the idea perhaps of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense): - X very, beware, take crafty [counsel], be prudent, deal subtilly.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

G5517
χοΐκός
choikos
kho-ik-os'
From G5522; dusty or dirty (soil like), that is, (by implication) terrene: - earthy.
G5522
χόος
choos
kho'-os
From the base of G5494; a heap (as poured out), that is, rubbish; lose dirt: - dust.

And there is your picture of The man Adam, not so perfect was he?

 

[lutherangerman]

It's pretty clear from science that mankind did not have one single pair of humans as their common ancestor. We have blacks, whites, asians, aborigines, reds, and our genetic spectrum is too diverse to be the result of only one pair of humans. That is why we must reject the assumption that Adam und Eve were our parents in the literal sense.

I would suggest that Adam and Eve were two tribes in friendship in the then-paradisic region of eastern Turkey. They had a spiritual awakening to God and followed him in terms of freedom and love - nothing was forbidden to them and they did not know anything that was forbidden. However, they did experience good things and evil things and in some time they got aware of this and awakened to that reality too. Their spiritual sense told them to abstain from that knowledge but in their mind it was too seductive. Think of all the power you can amass when you know about how to have the good and not to have the evil. The two tribes fell out of their natural innocence.

Throughout history there were two attempts to remedy that situation. The Noahides and later the Jews tried to submit the knowledge of good and evil to God in the form of laws. This was sometimes successful and sometimes not, depending on what the people did and whether God had blessed them to be successful with the law. And then Jesus came who did away with the bad kinds of law and asked us to bind ourselves to God's grace and live from forgiveness. This is the new covenant and in this new covenant the law and dichotomy of good and evil is solved with love - love being Christ's law.

 

[2KnowHim]

I have to say that I do appreciate you always referring to Christ as the means and the end of all that is unholy and a beginning of all that is Good and Righteous. Not many today lift Him up or even mention what He has accomplished on our behalf. With that being said, I however see Adam as something entirely different in the language of God, which is Spirit.

God called "their name" Adam, not Adam and Eve. He made them male and female, not man and woman.
In the beginning Adam was complete when God formed him. Body, soul, and the breathe of Life, which was our human spirit. But something happen IN Adam, before God caused a deep sleep to fall on him. The removing of the rib to make a woman outside of Adam, was a picture of the division that was going on inside Adam before the woman was made.

It specifically says, that it was not good that the man was alone. My question is why did Adam feel he was alone in the first place, he must have felt something was lacking in order for him to feel this.

at 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The male and female part of Adam are no more One but two, who done this? How did this happen? How did what God made to be one, now become two? The serpent, which I believe was a very real part of Adams make up, I believe, was the mind of Adam that preyed upon his lack of Understanding and caused Adam to seek something outside himself.

Our makeup is body, spirit, and soul
Adam in the garden, was body-the man, spirit-the serpent, and soul-the woman.

But now in Christ, The Holy Spirit is the one who joins the male and female together, and nothing can separate the two anymore. We can see this in Mary when she says:

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

This is the ONLY way we can birth The Son within us, if the two can agree and is joined together.
For two cannot walk together lest they agree, much less bring forth The Son.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It's pretty clear from science that mankind did not have one single pair of humans as their common ancestor. We have blacks, whites, asians, aborigines, reds, and our genetic spectrum is too diverse to be the result of only one pair of humans. That is why we must reject the assumption that Adam und Eve were our parents in the literal sense.

I would suggest that Adam and Eve were two tribes in friendship in the then-paradisic region of eastern Turkey. They had a spiritual awakening to God and followed him in terms of freedom and love - nothing was forbidden to them and they did not know anything that was forbidden. However, they did experience good things and evil things and in some time they got aware of this and awakened to that reality too. Their spiritual sense told them to abstain from that knowledge but in their mind it was too seductive. Think of all the power you can amass when you know about how to have the good and not to have the evil. The two tribes fell out of their natural innocence.

Throughout history there were two attempts to remedy that situation. The Noahides and later the Jews tried to submit the knowledge of good and evil to God in the form of laws. This was sometimes successful and sometimes not, depending on what the people did and whether God had blessed them to be successful with the law. And then Jesus came who did away with the bad kinds of law and asked us to bind ourselves to God's grace and live from forgiveness. This is the new covenant and in this new covenant the law and dichotomy of good and evil is solved with love - love being Christ's law.

Certainly no biologist and I recognize there are many theories out there including alien intervention. But am pretty sure the "out of Africa" theory is the one held (and been held for some time) by a large majority of people who would be in a position to have an opinion we should all at least respect. And having common parents so long ago certain DOES NOT mean we have to all look alike today anymore than the wacked theory (actually recall a thread on this in the old unorthodox theology section) that the differences you mention means some of us are "demon seed".

 

[lutherangerman]

Our genetic spectrum shows too much familiarity between animals and us for the single pair of humans, Adam and Eve, being our parents and having been created "from mud" apart from the other lifeforms here on Earth. That is why I think Adam and Eve were two tribes that had friendship with each other. And the scene with the rib has to do with the Eve tribe having split from the Adam tribe and being what was dearest to them. It's all from a time when we were mostly nomadic people and then settling down to build cities and living from agriculture and herding.