On Eve & The Virgin

Salvator Mundi

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Hi,

I have a question for Catholics. How do you justify God redeeming everyone and especially Eve, if he simply created a new eve (aka Virgin Mary). What happens to the old Eve? Is that redemption if you simply discard the old one and give another woman the role as the mother of living? I don't want any hard and defined answers if there isn't one. But I just thought it's something to think about. IF you sinned and God simply replaced you, would you term that as redeeming you?
 

chevyontheriver

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Hi,

I have a question for Catholics. How do you justify God redeeming everyone and especially Eve, if he simply created a new eve (aka Virgin Mary). What happens to the old Eve? Is that redemption if you simply discard the old one and give another woman the role as the mother of living? I don't want any hard and defined answers if there isn't one. But I just thought it's something to think about. IF you sinned and God simply replaced you, would you term that as redeeming you?
Mary is a TYPE of Eve, with Eve as the model. Eve has not been replaced. Jesus is a TYPE of Adam, with Adam as the model. Neither Eve nor Adam have been replaced, but their typology has been fulfilled. The Catholic and Orthodox accept TYPOLOGY in their theology. Many Protestants don't understand that at all. Your question is answerable if you learn more about typology. Eve isn't discarded. Mary does not negate the possibility of Eve being redeemed at all. They are two separate people. One like the other.
 
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Salvator Mundi

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There can be only one Mother of all Living in the end is all I am saying. If Virgin Mary gets that new title (As in prayers she is called Mother of all) then Eve no longer holds that position. ) I have read books by catholic writers like Scott Hahn and Brant Pitre where typology is mentioned and both specifically call her the New Eve of the New Creation. And I agree she will be. But what about the old Eve? I just thought that was a bit insulting. I believe reconciling this will help us understand the trinity and the Holy Spirit better.
 
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Salvator Mundi

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I mean pics like these of Mary consoling Eve speaks a lot. I just hope we don't settle into intellectual complacency about our 1st mother of living

eve.png
 
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linux.poet

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Gnarwhal

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I mean pics like these of Mary consoling Eve speaks a lot. I just hope we don't settle into intellectual complacency about our 1st mother of living

View attachment 341883

In that particular image, Mary is consoling Eve because Mary's "YES" to God in Luke 1:36 is essentially a reversal of Eve's "no" in Genesis 3:7. Mary's yes paved the way for the coming of Christ whose salvation reaches through time and space.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I mean pics like these of Mary consoling Eve speaks a lot. I just hope we don't settle into intellectual complacency about our 1st mother of living

View attachment 341883
Eve would remain the mother of all humans. We get our mitochondria from her, we get an X chromosome from her.

Mary is a spiritual mother, the mother of Christians because she was the mother of Christ, the new man. She intercedes for all Christians and for all others that they may become Christians. I suspect Eve also intercedes for all Christians and for all humanity. We are, after all, her children. Mary's role is bigger but Eve's is not zero.

This picture is good because it reminds us that Eve is not scorned, not hated, not cast out for eternity. In fact she was given the promise that one of her offspring would set things right again. So she had that hope. The hope as the child of Mary.
 
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Mary is a TYPE of Eve, with Eve as the model. Eve has not been replaced. Jesus is a TYPE of Adam, with Adam as the model. Neither Eve nor Adam have been replaced, but their typology has been fulfilled. The Catholic and Orthodox accept TYPOLOGY in their theology. Many Protestants don't understand that at all. Your question is answerable if you learn more about typology. Eve isn't discarded. Mary does not negate the possibility of Eve being redeemed at all. They are two separate people. One like the other.
Adam and Eve sinned, and due to that state, they were cast out from the garden. They were fallen and helpless in that they could not work toward their own salvation. The justice of God requires punishment for sin.
God took pity on them because unlike the Angels, they did not have perfect knowledge when they sinned and were deceived. God needed to buy them aka redeem them. Redemption comes from God, not within ourselves. That is is Gospel, the good news.
God has taken upon Himself to do what we could not do, redeem us from sin.

God chose to become a man, and suffer and die for us. Sin separated Adam and Eve from God, and they had to be bought, they could not buy their way back themselves, as they would find as did Esau, that there is no space for repentance though they seek it diligently with tears.

Sin made them slaves to sin and of the seed of Satan. Mary was formed by God by His choice not ours. She is as the way He chose to enter the world to redeem us.

Consider this sermon from the second century Bishop, Sophronius of Jerusalem.

From a sermon by Saint Sophronius, bishop


Through Mary, the Father's blessing has shone forth on mankind


Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. What joy could surpass this, O Virgin Mother? What grace can excel that which God has granted to you alone? What could be imagined more dazzling or more delightful? Before the miracle we witness in you, all else pales; all else is inferior when compared with the grace you have been given. All else, even what is most desirable, must take second place and enjoy a lesser importance.


The Lord is with you. Who would dare challenge you? You are God’s mother; who would not immediately defer to you and be glad to accord you a greater primacy and honour? For this reason, when I look upon the privilege you have above all creatures, I extol you with the highest praise: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. On your account joy has not only graced men, but is also granted to the powers of heaven.


Truly, you are blessed among women. For you have changed Eve’s curse into a blessing; and Adam, who hitherto lay under a curse, has been blessed because of you.


Truly, you are blessed among women. Through you the Father’s blessing has shone forth on mankind, setting them free of their ancient curse.


Truly, you are blessed among women, because through you your forebears have found salvation. For you were to give birth to the Saviour who was to win them salvation.


Truly, you are blessed among women, for without seed you have borne, as your fruit, him who bestows blessings on the whole world and redeems it from that curse that made it sprout thorns.


Truly, you are blessed among women, because, though a woman by nature, you will become, in reality, God’s mother. If he whom you are to bear is truly God made flesh, then rightly do we call you God’s mother. For you have truly given birth to God.


Enclosed within your womb is God himself. He makes his abode in you and comes forth from you like a bridegroom, winning joy for all and bestowing God’s light on all.


You, O Virgin, are like a clear and shining sky, in which God has set his tent. From you he comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber. Like a giant running his course, he will run the course of his life which will bring salvation for all who will ever live, and extending from the highest heavens to the end of them, it will fill all things with divine warmth and with life-giving brightness.



Genesis 3:15 tells us that Mary is not of the seed of Satan, rather his enemy. He hates her because he was the light bearer, Lucifer. Now material creature will bear greater light than he ever could or will. He cannot subject her to himself so he seeks to crush her in the way that Captain Ahab sought Moby Dick. When he is cast into the abyss I can imagine him saying for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. She will be sad, not for what he says about her, vile though it is, but God loves His whole creation and He is grieved when His love is rejected, as is Mary when she grieved for her Son at the foot of the cross. Jesus tells us, behold thy mother.
The hate of Satan is where we get the term, son of a b—-h, as it blasphemes Mary and Jesus at the same time. Hate of Mary, indifference or disrespect does not come from God, rather her enemy and ours, Satan. God commands us to honor our mother and father. Would God Himself not obey His own command and honor His mother above all creatures, or do we think we are above God because we obey a command that He does not ?
 
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Genesis 23:16 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Mary is the seed or the offspring of Eve. She needs redemption as much as anyone else.

1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Mary is a creature. She was preserved from original sin at her conception just as Eve was formed without original sin. The difference is Mary obeyed, Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word. Eve disobeyed and allowed herself to be deceived by Satan. Gabriel called her full of grace which is a translation of Kecharitomene. Mary is the only creature with that title.

Baptism cleanses us from original sin because it is the work of God. We are cleansed after we sin, Mary was preserved free of sin by the full measure of the grace of God prior to her sinning. She is the work of God and to be honored as His gift given to us as He promised, the enemy of the serpent. We do not insult the grace of God aka blaspheme by assigning sin to Mary. She is not a slave of sin, which anyone that sins is a slave of sin, she is the enemy of sin as promised by God. Her seed which we know to be Our Lord Jesus, was born with out sin as He is God Himself, and He chooses vessels for His honor.

We have another example in John the Baptist. If you recall when Mary visited Elizabeth, John leaped for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice. Why would he do that? Because Mary bore Our Lord and Jesus, at that moment decided to Baptize him and cleanse him of original sin. How do we know that? Because a sinner runs in fear in the presence of God, John leaped for joy. Recall when Adam sinned he hid in shame and fear at the voice of God.

What other evidence do we have that what I am saying is true? We have the words of Jesus Himself. He said among men born of women, there is none greater than John the Baptist. Why?
What is so special about John? He was cleansed of sin aka baptized aka received the grace of God while he was still in the womb and was born without original sin.
What other evidence do we have? He maintained humility and when he spoke of Jesus he said he was not even worthy to untie his sandles. Jesus called him the greatest man ever born, and he bows before his God. That is perfect humility

Mary too displays perfect humility when she says behold the handmaid of the Lord, even though Elizabeth called her blessed among women, which means the greatest woman that ever lived, because she heard the word of God, believed and kept it. Did not Jesus say blessed are those that hear the word of God and keep it?

Mary says my soul magnifies the Lord because she knows that she is the work of God’s just like Adam and Eve were. The difference is that she obeyed the word of God, and God preserved her from sin by the work of His hands not hers.

Her sinless state does not make her equal to God, nor does her divine motherhood make her greater than God, but she is in a state greater than us.

Just as John the Baptist was above all men, Mary is above all women by God’s grace and the work of His hands. We admire John and Mary, we admire God, they are not idols made by human hands

Just as when we admire the Mona Lisa, we admire Da Vinci. When we admire a work, we admire its creator. Idols are made by human hands. Mary was created by God
 
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