Universalism: pros and cons
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Floatingaxe
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Sorry, I didn't make it clear. I agree with you, above. It's just that people think we're of this belief because we only see God as a God of Luuuuuv, and we don't see His other aspects as that of Lawgiver and Stern Judge. Sorry to confuse you...
Actually, I think that you have the more realistic view of the bunch. The others we have tangled with have denied His just and wrathful side, and only refer to His being Love.
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I don't think I've seen a staunch eternal damnation believer who is willing to debate.
I certainly wouldn't call myself one, although I'm not a universalist by CF's definition (when there was an official one) either.
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Yeah. Back in the day when you could have your icon taken away if you held certain beliefs, one of them was universalism. Then they put it on a list where you couldn't have your icon removed, but you couldn't talk about it in the Christians-Only forums & you couldn't be on staff.
But it basically was defined as you had to believe that definitely everyone, including Satan, would be saved. While I think that is possible, I don't hold it as the only possibility, so I qualified, by the skin of my teeth, to squeak by CF's orthodoxy standards.
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Please Lord grant me strength. As much as this flesh wants to really tell her what I want to, I am just going to say in the spirit to her....
I love you.
I love you.
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Actually then you need to reread those posts. Is there ANY UR or US person who believes that God will TAKE INTO His Kingdom, sinners, without some sort of punishment or purification phase? I sure don't. God is the Judge who is a jealous God, and for anyone to put another God before Him, or to Love anyone or thing above Him will face this wrath. A Loving Wrath, but a wrath none the less. But eternal hellfire and damnation? Please. That isn't anywhere close to Loving, even in a wrathful way.
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Floatingaxe
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Loving wrath?
Give us scripture that speaks to the purification aspect after death.
Give us scripture that describes God as a namby pamby disciplinarian and that His wrath is less than the definition of fierce, and that His promises are NOT trustworthy.
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Floatingaxe
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That isn't anything to do with purification of sin in the heart of man. That is the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ where all BELIEVERS receive their reward.
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And this is what? Why are you calling God names, or giving other attributes? CAN YOU PLEASE STOP, in Jesus name,,,please stop!!!!
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Tavita
beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Here's one...
ASV..
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Concordant New Testament...
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
That word punishment is Kolasis:
William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, notes: The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
For example, the Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).
God's wrath, while being stern and tough (tough love?) and thankfully we won't have to face it, is still love. Just as a father who metes out strong stern punishment and gives us a good whooping for what we've done (if he is a loving father, and not an unjust and hateful father) so God is. I know you will say that God is not the father of the unbelieving, but I believe He is. And in which case he has put his fatherly aspects within all men. God shows His nature within all of His creation.
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Floatingaxe
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God is HOLY. He cannot and will not allow sin in His Kingdom or remain in His presence any longer than it will take to judge it.
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How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?
The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.
- John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
- John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
- Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
- Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
- Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
- Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
- Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
- 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
- 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
- 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
- Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
- Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
- Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
- Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
- Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
- Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
- 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
- Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
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Tavita
beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Yeah, it appears so. We've done this before. That seems to be a good argument but the Greek word ainios doesn't have the same meaning for all subjects. Let me see if I can find part of the article from 'Hope Beyond Hell'...
♦ Youngs Literal Translation: punishment age-during.
♦ Rotherham Translation: age-abiding correction.
♦ Weymouth Translation: punishment of the ages.
♦ Concordant Literal Translation: chastening eonian.
These reputable and literal translations use the word age and not eternal. These two concepts are diametrically opposed to one another. They are not the same by any means. An age has a beginning and an end; eternity does not.
Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers.
For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonahs entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days.
To a slave, aionios referred to his life span.
To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood.
To Solomons temple, it referred to 400 years.
To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what tall is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called great, the word great is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, great becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me.
Though He is called the God of the ages, He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages. In addition, Augustines reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twicewith God and with something temporal. In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now according to the injunction of the eonian God (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. And the everlasting mountains were scattered. His ways are everlasting (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. Gods ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal.
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CaDan, as far as I know, the proposition you put forth was "Universalism can or cannot be supported by scripture." Tavita wishes to argue for it being supported, I wish to argue for it not being supported. Tavita would like to work on a team. I'm happy debating 1:1 or on a team, but not being outnumbered by opponents...
If any non-Universalist is interested in being on my team in a formal debate, please post your interest here.
If any non-Universalist is interested in being on my team in a formal debate, please post your interest here.
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I'm not a universalist, but I definitely think it CAN be supported by scripture.
Which view is supported more convincingly is another question.
And a further question is whether, even though it is supported by scripture, it should be preached.
And if it is supported by scripture but shouldn't be preached, is it right to call it false?
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