Universalism: pros and cons

[Floatingaxe]

"I was originally trying to point out to FA, Z, that because there is confusion and chaos, doesn't mean it's 'of the devil', christians give him too much credit."

I agree with you here. I've always believed that FA whips the devil out too much in her posts.

Oh well. He is real and he wants to tear you down and kill you. I think that many Christians are not onto his schemes enough. We are to be alert and armed. Too many Christians are walking targets.

You may think I focus too much on Satan. I don't. I see his hand here in CF, and when I address it, you are jumping to a conclusion about me and it's incorrect.

Please stop.

 

[Zecryphon]

I was originally trying to point out to FA, Z, that because there is confusion and chaos, doesn't mean it's 'of the devil', christians give him too much credit.

"I was originally trying to point out to FA, Z, that because there is confusion and chaos, doesn't mean it's 'of the devil', christians give him too much credit."

Really? Because below is your question to FA, which is what I was responding to. I do agree with you though, that FA mentions the devil alot more frequently than he deserves being mentioned.

Would you say the confusion and chaos around the time of Luther's reformation was of the devil?

The confusion and chaos in Luther's time stemmed directly from what the RCC was teaching at that time, which Luther thought directly contradicted the Holy Scriptures. Remember that the people at that time did not have a copy of the scriptures they could read for themselves, they had to rely solely on what was told to them by the priests. The RCC was selling indulgences and telling people that they could buy their way out of purgatory or spring their loved ones from Purgatory with an indulgence. John Tetzel himself, who sold indulgences for the RCC to help pay for the construction of St. Peter's in Rome, is quoted as saying "when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."

 

[Zecryphon]

Oh well. He is real and he wants to tear you down and kill you. I think that many Christians are not onto his schemes enough. We are to be alert and armed. Too many Christians are walking targets.

You may think I focus too much on Satan. I don't. I see his hand here in CF, and when I address it, you are jumping to a conclusion about me and it's incorrect.

Please stop.

"Oh well. He is real and he wants to tear you down and kill you. I think that many Christians are not onto his schemes enough. We are to be alert and armed. Too many Christians are walking targets."

I disagree. Any Christian who reads their Bible knows the role of the devil.

"You may think I focus too much on Satan. I don't. I see his hand here in CF, and when I address it, you are jumping to a conclusion about me and it's incorrect."

I'm not the one who jumped to the conclusion this time. That would be Tavita. I'm simply agreeing with her. The conclusion is not incorrect either. You mention the devil way more than anybody else in this thread. All a person has to do is go through your posts, count the number of times you mention the devil in comparison to any other person in this thread, and see who has the highest number of mentions of Satan. You'll win hands down.

"Please stop."

Is it against the rules to note that you mention Satan more than any other member in this thread? You stop. Stop acting all hurt because people notice you have a tendency to mention the devil quite frequently. You can't openly engage in a behavior and then cry foul when people notice you doing it and comment on it.

 

[mont974x4]

The problem is claiming that FA accurately addressing the enemy of our soul is an issue.


Do some people give him to much credit? Sure. Does that mean we go to the other extreme and pretend he isn't going about seeking whom he may devour? God forbid it!!

 

[Tavita]

Really? Because below is your question to FA, which is what I was responding to. I do agree with you though, that FA mentions the devil alot more frequently than he deserves being mentioned.



The confusion and chaos in Luther's time stemmed directly from what the RCC was teaching at that time, which Luther thought directly contradicted the Holy Scriptures. Remember that the people at that time did not have a copy of the scriptures they could read for themselves, they had to rely solely on what was told to them by the priests. The RCC was selling indulgences and telling people that they could buy their way out of purgatory or spring their loved ones from Purgatory with an indulgence. John Tetzel himself, who sold indulgences for the RCC to help pay for the construction of St. Peter's in Rome, is quoted as saying "when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."

Oh okay, Z.. sheesh... sorry if I used the wrong example in the point I was trying to make.... have you dotted enough i's and crossed enough t's yet?

 

[Tavita]

The problem is claiming that FA accurately addressing the enemy of our soul is an issue.


Do some people give him to much credit? Sure. Does that mean we go to the other extreme and pretend he isn't going about seeking whom he may devour? God forbid it!!

Of course not. I don't think anyone's saying that though.

 

[Floatingaxe]

"Oh well. He is real and he wants to tear you down and kill you. I think that many Christians are not onto his schemes enough. We are to be alert and armed. Too many Christians are walking targets."

I disagree. Any Christian who reads their Bible knows the role of the devil.

What do you disagree with? Not every Christian knows, obviously.

"You may think I focus too much on Satan. I don't. I see his hand here in CF, and when I address it, you are jumping to a conclusion about me and it's incorrect."

I'm not the one who jumped to the conclusion this time. That would be Tavita. I'm simply agreeing with her. The conclusion is not incorrect either. You mention the devil way more than anybody else in this thread. All a person has to do is go through your posts, count the number of times you mention the devil in comparison to any other person in this thread, and see who has the highest number of mentions of Satan. You'll win hands down.

It's not wrong to have the insight to see Satan's work. We have to have discernment. You need to consider that too many Christians never see him coming.

"Please stop."

Is it against the rules to note that you mention Satan more than any other member in this thread? You stop. Stop acting all hurt because people notice you have a tendency to mention the devil quite frequently. You can't openly engage in a behavior and then cry foul when people notice you doing it and comment on it.

I politely asked you to stop commenting on my posting. I am not crying foul, but if you persist, I will. It matters not whether I point out the influence of Satan 5 times or 50 times in any thread.

He is certainly enjoying the ruckus aroused by his little pet called Universalism, though...

 

[Tavita]

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What do you disagree with? Not every Christian knows, obviously.



It's not wrong to have the insight to see Satan's work. We have to have discernment. You need to consider that too many Christians never see him coming.





I politely asked you to stop commenting on my posting. I am not crying foul, but if you persist, I will. It matters not whether I point out the influence of Satan 5 times or 50 times in any thread.

He is certainly enjoying the ruckus aroused by his little pet called Universalism, though...

I find it really funny that satan would like me to believe in how loving and kind and sovereign God is... are you telling me that's a lie? Oh I know what you think... that it's a half truth, because God is a God of wrath and judgment too, hating sin... which I also believe.

 

[Joykins]

I thought Joykins signed up for the opposing side.

Yes, I did sign up for the opposing side if anyone really wants to go all formal-like.

 

[Joykins]

Yes, that's true! I wonder why it's not going ahead then.. maybe they've forgotten the whole idea.

I hadn't heard back from anyone and then the thread got closed.

I haven't really been in a formal debate IRL so I guess we can figure it out together. Are you game?

Joy

 

[Tavita]

I hadn't heard back from anyone and then the thread got closed.

I haven't really been in a formal debate IRL so I guess we can figure it out together. Are you game?

Joy

Hi Joykins,

Yes, I said in that thread that I'd be willing to be part of a team. There is someone who is willing for a full on debate, one on one...

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42987858#post42987858

I don't have the confidence or ability to express myself in theological terms in such a formal way to do it on my own. I think teams would work better for me personally. What do you think?

 

[Joykins]

If we're going to do teams I need someone for my side. Crazy Liz, are you interested? CaDan, are you still up for the other side?

 

[Tavita]

We also need an area to do this. Zecryphon suggested the debate area of GA. I don't know if there is anywhere in there that is appropriate. I believe that's why Stumpjumper asked for a new General Theology Debate forum in Suggest New Forums a couple of weeks ago. There appears to be nothing happening though.

 

[Joykins]

CaDan, as a moderator do you think would it be possible to reserve a *thread* in this forum for this debate?

 

[Crazy Liz]

If we're going to do teams I need someone for my side. Crazy Liz, are you interested? CaDan, are you still up for the other side?

I'm really not up for making an argument just for the sake of it these days, whether I agree with it or not.

My position is that neither universal reconciliation nor that some will be eternally tormented can be falsified.

 

[Joykins]

Fair enough. Do we have to have teams, Tavita?

 

[Floatingaxe]

I find it really funny that satan would like me to believe in how loving and kind and sovereign God is... are you telling me that's a lie? Oh I know what you think... that it's a half truth, because God is a God of wrath and judgment too, hating sin... which I also believe.

Where have I said that God's lovingkindness and sovereignty is a lie? I think you read us wrong.

It is a lie to believe that God is ONLY all love and all kindness. Satan feeds that notion so people will neglect the part of God that Judges sin and expresses wrath against it.

It is a lie to believe that God in ALL HIS FULLNESS does not embody all aspects of what we have in our character. After all, we are created in His image.

 

[CaDan]

Hold on a sec. I haven't been following this thread!

Have I been assigned a side or something?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hold on a sec. I haven't been following this thread!

Have I been assigned a side or something?

I think you're against the universalists.

But I don't know who has the affirmative & who has the negative.

 

[Tavita]

Where have I said that God's lovingkindness and sovereignty is a lie? I think you read us wrong.

It is a lie to believe that God is ONLY all love and all kindness. Satan feeds that notion so people will neglect the part of God that Judges sin and expresses wrath against it.

It is a lie to believe that God in ALL HIS FULLNESS does not embody all aspects of what we have in our character. After all, we are created in His image.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. I agree with you, above. It's just that people think we're of this belief because we only see God as a God of Luuuuuv, and we don't see His other aspects as that of Lawgiver and Stern Judge. Sorry to confuse you...