Universal Reconciliation

[ZoneChaos]

I decided to start a new thread on this topic continued from the 97 page eternal torment topic..

My question there was

Will God force this reconciliation? If so, then why bother at all with Dying on the cross? If not then how will those who reject Him be reconciled?

 

[julibug]

Why did Jesus have to die if all men are going to be saved anyway? That’s like asking, "What’s the point of having a hospital that has discovered the cure for all diseases?" Just because Calvary will prove itself to be 100% successful does not render Christ’s sacrifice unnecessary. If a rescue team saved all the passengers on a sinking ship, would that prove their mission to be futile? The unscriptural dogma that only some will be saved undermines the atonement. It renders our Lord’s work as mostly a failure. There is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12)! This is God’s way. God could have chosen any means He wanted to bring salvation to men. The means God has chosen to bring it about is the shedding of innocent blood. Man cannot save himself. He is estranged from God because of sin. So God had to intervene and send His only Son to die for the sins of the world. This was God’s plan before the foundation of the world. So even if God were going to save only one man, Jesus would still have had to die. So it really doesn’t matter if one man is saved or all of mankind, Jesus Christ fulfilled the purpose of God by dying for the sins of the world. This is the only way to be saved. This is the way God has chosen.

Ok. I copied & pasted that from the savior-of-all website, but I thought it was pretty good.

 

[jo-shmo]

Yes but the problem lies in that all the people on a sinking boat want to be saved. The reason we accept Jesus is that we have realized that we are not good enough in and of ourselves to live up to Gods standards. To accept forgiveness we must first realize that we need forgiven. In the case of those that do not realize that they need forgiven and hence reject Christ, when the people on the ship don;t think they are in any danger and deny the help of the rescue team, what then?

 

[ZoneChaos]

Why did Jesus have to die if all men are going to be saved anyway? That’s like asking, "What’s the point of having a hospital that has discovered the cure for all diseases?"

Well, I guess in this analogy, the point would be that a person would need to go to the hospital to get treated for the diseases.

Just because Calvary will prove itself to be 100% successful does not render Christ’s sacrifice unnecessary.

That is the issue though.. how do we define success as it applies to Calvary, and the sacrifice God made on the cross?

If a rescue team saved all the passengers on a sinking ship, would that prove their mission to be futile? The unscriptural dogma that only some will be saved undermines the atonement.

Perhaps we need to exchange scriptures then. I will post some below after my reply...

It renders our Lord’s work as mostly a failure. There is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12)!

I agree with this verse, just not that all men will be saved.

This is God’s way. God could have chosen any means He wanted to bring salvation to men.

Such as offering it freely, for everyone, with no validation of man's heart toward God?

The means God has chosen to bring it about is the shedding of innocent blood. Man cannot save himself. He is estranged from God because of sin. So God had to intervene and send His only Son to die for the sins of the world. This was God’s plan before the foundation of the world. So even if God were going to save only one man, Jesus would still have had to die. So it really doesn’t matter if one man is saved or all of mankind, Jesus Christ fulfilled the purpose of God by dying for the sins of the world. This is the only way to be saved. This is the way God has chosen.

Totally agree with that! Amen!

Now before I get into scriptue, I want to clarify my stance. I do believe that a Christian can be a universalist. I do not think that Universalism is a doctrine required for salvation, and that both universalists and non-universalists can be saved.

Accepting or denying universalism does not determine if one is a beleiver, but rather, it is faith in and acceptance Jesus Christ and the work He did.

The problem I see with universalism is that it teaches that all will be saved no mater what the believe while here on earth. You could deny God, hate God, Blaspheme God, and worship Satan until you die, and still be saved.

Example: A Universalist could not refute something like Mormonism. Even though Mormons teach false doctrine, according to Christianity, sense they also do teach dtrong moral and ethical values, Universalists should support mormonism, and yet I have heard many universalist Christians denounce it.

With that said...


I have a few verses that seem to support a non-universal salvation which I will post next. But, what are some that support a universal salvation?

Universalists will use verse that show that God will always get what He desires, then show verses that show God's desire is that all should be saved. Simple approach. The problem is, that universalists do not take into account all of scripture that deals with God's desire. God desires us not to sin, and yet we do. How is that possible? [Prov 21:3] If God's will is absolute in salvation then why is it not absolute in this?

you have to look at God's will and compare His perfect will to His permissive will. His perfect will is that none should sin, and yet His permissive will allows us to sin. Should this not also be true of salvation? Is God's perfect will for all to be saved, and yet His permissive will that some should choose not to be?

God desires all men to be saved [1 Tim. 2:3-4], and yet God also blinds people from thet truth [Rom 11:8]. Clearly God desires one thing, and at the same time performs actions to the contrary. The perfect will of His nature vs His permissive will allowing man choose to reject Him.

Other verses, and how do these fit in with Universalism:

Matt. 7:13-14
Matt. 12:32 / Luke 12:10 (Age to Come, I believe, begins with Christ's return, and is eternal. It is in this "Age" that we live eternally [Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30], thus it cannot have an end.)
Matt. 22:14
Luke 13:22-27
Rom 9:27
Matt. 12:32

 

[G4m]

The problem I see with universalism is that it teaches that all will be saved no mater what the believe while here on earth. You could deny God, hate God, Blaspheme God, and worship Satan until you die, and still be saved.

2 Timothy 2

13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

you have to look at God's will and compare His perfect will to His permissive will. His perfect will is that none should sin, and yet His permissive will allows us to sin. Should this not also be true of salvation? Is God's perfect will for all to be saved, and yet His permissive will that some should choose not to be?

I don't believe in permissive and perfect wills. God set us up to sin in the garden, for a reason. His plan in our lives, will deliver His final purpose in our lives.

I hope I explained myself properly, His plan is elegant yet also somewhat confusing.

God desires all men to be saved [1 Tim. 2:3-4], and yet God also blinds people from thet truth [Rom 11:8]. Clearly God desires one thing, and at the same time performs actions to the contrary. The perfect will of His nature vs His permissive will allowing man choose to reject Him.

Again we are in the night time, awaiting the day. He is planning things to fulfil His purpose.

Other verses, and how do these fit in with Universalism:

Matt. 7:13-14
Matt. 12:32 / Luke 12:10 (Age to Come, I believe, begins with Christ's return, and is eternal. It is in this "Age" that we live eternally [Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30], thus it cannot have an end.)

There does appear to be more ages to come:

Ephesians 2
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

God will always forgive:

Isaiah 57
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.

Matt. 22:14
Luke 13:22-27

I'm not 100% sure yet. But this appears to be judgement. But it still must end, can't endure forever:

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Rom 9:27

Romans 11
26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


and finally:

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[xsimmsx]

2 Timothy 2

13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


I don't believe in permissive and perfect wills. God set us up to sin in the garden, for a reason. His plan in our lives, will deliver His final purpose in our lives.

I hope I explained myself properly, His plan is elegant yet also somewhat confusing.


Again we are in the night time, awaiting the day. He is planning things to fulfil His purpose.


There does appear to be more ages to come:

Ephesians 2
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

God will always forgive:

Isaiah 57
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.



I'm not 100% sure yet. But this appears to be judgement. But it still must end, can't endure forever:

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.



Romans 11
26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


and finally:

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

He has mercy on all that doesn't mean all are saved. Jesus said that God was kind to the unjust and the evil. He also said that they would burn in everlasting fire if they stayed evil.


Yeah all ISRAEL meaning all those that are true jews. Which means all those who are true christians. Yet the scripture teaches that their is false jews and they won't be saved.

Revelation of John 2:9:
I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation of John 3:9:
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.


In Love,
Joshua

 

[G4m]

He has mercy on all that doesn't mean all are saved. Jesus said that God was kind to the unjust and the evil. He also said that they would burn in everlasting fire if they stayed evil.


Yeah all ISRAEL meaning all those that are true jews. Which means all those who are true christians. Yet the scripture teaches that their is false jews and they won't be saved.

Revelation of John 2:9:
I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation of John 3:9:
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.


In Love,
Joshua

Joshua,

thanks for starting this thread. Its nice to have a civilised discussion about this!

Now salvation always depends on God, not us:

Romans 9
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Isaiah 59
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm worked salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.

What about the punishment of everlasting fire?

Jude 1
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Ezekiel 16
53 " 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


I'd like to add some more scriptures to this discussion:

John 6
12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, "Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted."

Matthew 16
11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."


The idea the Jesus cares more about some scraps of bread then His own creation, just doesn't make sense...

 

[xsimmsx]

Joshua,

thanks for starting this thread. Its nice to have a civilised discussion about this!

Now salvation always depends on God, not us:

Romans 9
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Isaiah 59
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm worked salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.

What about the punishment of everlasting fire?

Jude 1
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Ezekiel 16
53 " 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


I'd like to add some more scriptures to this discussion:

John 6
12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, "Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted."

Matthew 16
11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."


The idea the Jesus cares more about some scraps of bread then His own creation, just doesn't make sense...

Forgive me but I totally missed your point in this statement. Could you elaborate on what you are saying.


In Truth,
Joshua

 

[G4m]

Forgive me but I totally missed your point in this statement. Could you elaborate on what you are saying.


In Truth,
Joshua

Just that Jesus doesn't care about the bread, He cares about us. And all things are "fixable" for God.

 

[xsimmsx]

Just that Jesus doesn't care about the bread, He cares about us. And all things are "fixable" for God.

Except One thing. God can not Lie.

In Truth,
Joshua

 

[G4m]

ZoneChaos,

sorry got things confused...

Thank YOU for starting this thread...

 

[G4m]

Except One thing. God can not Lie.

In Truth,
Joshua

exactly! from the mouth of God, He understands what eternal torment would do to us:

Isaiah 57
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.

 

[xsimmsx]

exactly! from the mouth of God, He understands what eternal torment would do to us:

Isaiah 57
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.

Yep he understands fully but it didn't stop him from saying it was true.

Revelation of John 20:10:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Revelation of John 20:15:
And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Pretty Easy concept to grasp.

In Truth,
Joshua

 

[G4m]

Yep he understands fully but it didn't stop him from saying it was true.

Revelation of John 20:10:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Revelation of John 20:15:
And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Pretty Easy concept to grasp.

In Truth,
Joshua

Revelation 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

All death ends...

 

[onewarrior]

Revelation 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

All death ends...

Very Good and since death has ended the beings in the lake of fire are tormented forever because there is no more death.

 

[G4m]

Very Good and since death has ended the beings in the lake of fire are tormented forever because there is no more death.

So all will be made alive in Christ then?

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Very Good and since death has ended the beings in the lake of fire are tormented forever because there is no more death.

And how is God all in all at this point?

1 Corinthians 15
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[john14_20]

1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved-Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth-Will His desire come to pass?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time-Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all-Will He succeed?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will-Can your will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world-Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world-Why don't we believe it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself-To roast or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created-Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live-The same all?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live-Again, the same all?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times-Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
13. Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord-Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit-See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved-But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20,21-Restitution of all-How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people-Is there joy is "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11,12- All will know God-How long, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come-Have we judged Him before the time?
20. Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all-Experientially or prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty-How much of creation?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God-There's that word "all" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God-What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy-Is "hell" mercy?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen-Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all-All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him-ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things-Including "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God-Including Satan?
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all-What does that mean, preacher?
31. Rev 21:4,5-No more tears, all things made new-ALL made new?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live-How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth-How will the "righteous" judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved, so as by fire-How can fire save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire-Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world-Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for all-Did He died in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father-What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things-Does "things" include people?
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him-How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things-(Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all!-Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost-How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed-Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure-Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed-Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth-What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3,4-Enemies will submit to God-Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, then says return-How can one return from "destruction?"
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations-All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive-Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts-"All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps-What about "free will?"
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands-So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever-Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house-ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him-ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified-Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God-Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God-That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things-I wish we would believe that.
62. Is 19:14,15-Egypt & Assyria will be restored-Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate-Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him-Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him-For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him-Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all-Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works-Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall-Who hasn't fallen in sin?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him-For "eternal torment?"
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people-And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire. This came from the carnal mind.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws them. You can't "chose" to follow Him.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself-Amen!!!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him-If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Food for thought.

Hi G4m, blessings to you

 

[Der Alte]

That is an interesting list of out-of-context proof texts. First, one verse from the N.T., then from the O.T.

Jesus said, ”Not every one shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”

Mat 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

What was God’s will for Israel? And since God clearly states what His will was it should come to pass, without failure,right?

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s clearly stated will for the whole house of Israel and Judah, NOT just a select few, was for all of them to cling to Him as a belt to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in His sight, but they would not hear and obey, so God destroyed them.

The text does NOT state nor imply that those who were destroyed would some day be restored.

Will all of mankind be redeemed regardless how they have lived their mortal lives. Will Aaron and Adolph Hitler sit together in the heavenly realm? Will Moses break bread with Mussolini? Will the martyr Stephen and Stalin stroll paradise together?

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

H1692 דבק da’baq daw-bak'
A primitive root; properly to impinge, that is, cling or adhere; figuratively to catch by pursuit: - abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

H8816 Perfect

The Perfect expresses a completed action.

1) In reference to time, such an action may be:

1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
"I have come" to tell you the news

1b) one completed in the more or less distant past
in the beginning God "created"
"I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
"I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken

1c) one already completed from the point of view of another
past act
God saw everything that "he had made"

1d) one completed from the point of view of another action
yet future
I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done"
drinking

2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in
English.

2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent
occurrence--truths or actions which have been often
experienced or observed
the grass "withereth"
the sparrow "findeth" a house

2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into
the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee

2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English
uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case
emphasises a condition which has come into "complete
existence" and realisation
"I know" thou wilt be king
"I hate" all workers of iniquity

2d) Sometimes in Hebrew, future events are conceived so
vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as
Having virtually taken place and are described by the
perfect.

2d1) in promises, threats and language of contracts
the field "give I" thee
and if not, "I will take it"

2d2) prophetic language
my people "is gone into captivity"
(i.e. shall assuredly go).

De 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
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Acknowledge that All True Christians are Arminian in Glory​

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[Der Alte]

Revelation 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

All death ends...

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire." This very likely refers to the angel of death and the demon "hades", Rev 6:8

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

"All death ends..."This does NOT say what you think it does, this is NOT referring to the resurrection but that all death had ended, from that point on nobody would ever die again.

 

[ZoneChaos]

2 Timothy 2

13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Umm.. verse 12... If we deny him, He will deny us...

Verse 13 is not saying that if we are not faith ful to Him, He will still save us, by being Faith ful to us.. it is saying that it we are not Faithful to him, He will still be Faithful to His word... He cannot deny Himself... from verse 12, He will deny us (not Himself) if we deny Him, thus, if we are not Faithful to him, He will deny us, and the promise to do so is kept in verse 13.

I don't believe in permissive and perfect wills. God set us up to sin in the garden, for a reason. His plan in our lives, will deliver His final purpose in our lives.

He didn't set us up to fail... He just knew we would... Most do not see a differeence in that, but there is one.

I hope I explained myself properly, His plan is elegant yet also somewhat confusing.

Think about this statement outside the topic for a moment... I see God one way, you see another. I am not confused, and yet you are. God is complex, yes.. and I do not understand him, but what I do undrstand is not confusing. God is not the author of confusion. Any understadning you have recieved from Him should not be confusing. Think about that for a bit...

There does appear to be more ages to come:

Ephesians 2
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

But.. ages to do what? to continue saving mankind? Let me ask, where is sin at this point? Where does it exist? What does it affect? If Jesus Christ still mediating between sinners, and God? God cannot be int he presence of sin, thus unless Jesus is still mediating, how will the lost come to Him?

God will always forgive:

Isaiah 57
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.

I am curious why you have "accuse" in this verse, sense it means something different than "contend" which is generally a more "correct" word to you, given the menaing of the Hebrew: riyb.

Also, God never needs to accuse us of being what we already are: sinners.

I'm not 100% sure yet. But this appears to be judgement. But it still must end, can't endure forever:

1 Corinthians 15

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This isn't judgement.. "the end" here is that of the reign of man, of sin, or Satan. It will end.

And, this verse can't realluy be udsed to support or deny universalism, because it does not deal will the outcome of being sinful.

Romans 11

26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

That's the debate though: Is "Israel" in this verse all mankind? Or it Israel in this verse, all those who are saved by Faith through Grace before the rapture of the church? I lean toward the second one... A universalist leans toward the first.

and finally:

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Mercy does not equate to salvation.