U.K. plan would allow same-sex unions in church

[Phinehas2]

There main problem here is that the Government doesnt understand what the Christian faith is, despite what it might claim, if it did it wouldn't be entertaining the idea of such legislation that allows such things in churches.
The position of the Christian churches is clear, as shown with the links, people who look to those dissident gay views within the church should be enough warning to the church to expel the sexually immoral (1 Cor 5)

 

[Awesome_Frog]

Awesome Frog,
The earth is the Lord’s and everything in it. You are blessed to be here.

And your God says the world is wicked and the kingdom is at hand, and the world will not change, so accept him and receive his gift of eternal life in heaven.

Not at all, the gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ which includes His forgiveness and salvation from sin. The objections people have is that having heard what some of the sin is they decide they wont tolerate hearing it is sin.

So what. By making or opposing legislation, you are making people want to listen to you less. Its quite obvious why Paul and Jesus told you guys not to bother trying to changing the world. When people don't want to listen to you, you walk away.

A democratic society allows all citizens to vote according to the views, Christians are thus entitled to vote for godly laws and principles.

And you still don't seem to understand that its no going to change anything, world is still going to be evil and you forgot that when people refuse your message you are supposed to walk away, not keep pushing forward.

No the message from God has always been the same, and the reaction of the world has always been the same.

So what the point of doing something that has been shown to be fruitless? Really what do you expect to get out of this, other then frustrated minorities and more people turning away from a message you seem less interested in preaching.

No, you are missing the point of what these scriptures say, they address believers. followers of Jesus Christ have no choice they cannot accept same sex perversions amongst God’s people.

And? How exactly is making life harder or putting forth legislation that will effect non Christians and people who don't care about your message have any relevance to that? You don't seem to want to acknowledge the obvious flaw here.

Not me, I have attended civil partnership ceremonies of friends, I accept they have the choice to what they believe, but society seems to think it can force its views on Christians. One doesn’t have to belong to a church as the body of believers, it’s a choice. But if they do they need to understand what the beliefs of the church are.

I don't get your entire point here. You are opposing something your own God has said is inevitable?

Answer me this one question. How is the opposition to same sex unions going to make life any better? What are you going to gain if the state refuses to acknowledge me and my partner as next of kin and a legal singular entity?

I just don't get it, according to your religion, by me not accepting your religion I'm already destined for Hell, how exactly is opposing policy that would make me and my partner's legal matters easier going to help me out?

Expalin to me how this makes sense in the slightest.

 

[Phinehas2]

The question is how far are the UK goverment prepared to go to ostracize a community which proportionally contributes so much charity and voluntary work to the community? how big is the god of gay?

 

[Awesome_Frog]

The question is how far are the UK goverment prepared to go to ostracize a community which proportionally contributes so much charity and voluntary work to the community? how big is the god of gay?

You aren't answering my question.

Your God has already told you that the world is evil. England doing this should be no surprise at all.


At this point all your doing is moaning and groaning about something your own God already answered.

Now, answer my questions since I was kind enough to answer yours.

 

[David Brider]

There main problem here is that the Government doesnt understand what the Christian faith is, despite what it might claim...

The government is aware of what you seem to be happy to deny - that the Christian church is a very diverse and widespread body of believers, some of whom are perfectly happy to allow same-sex civil partnerships to be conducted on their premises.

...if it did it wouldn't be entertaining the idea of such legislation that allows such things in churches.

If churches wish to carry out same-sex civil partnership ceremonies on their premises, then who are you to stop them? If the new legislation enables them to carry out such ceremonies, why do you have a problem with that?

The position of the Christian churches is clear, as shown with the links...

The links are denomination specific. This new law, as I understand, would apply at a local church level.

...people who look to those dissident gay views within the church should be enough warning to the church to expel the sexually immoral (1 Cor 5)

What's sexually immoral about wanting to get married?

David.

 

[David Brider]

David Brider,
Not the issue is it. The Equalities act was to prevent discrimnation on the grounds of sexual orientation to the provision of goods and services

Yes.

The guest house owners who have been prosecuted did not refuse the provision of rooms to men who had homosexual orientation, they just prevented a shared bed on the grounds of then being not married.

AIUI, guest house owners have no business turning away customers on the grounds of them not being married, any more than they have any business turning away customers on the grounds of them being a same-sex couple.

Similarly the gay lobbies will target churches which refuse to allow civil partnerships.

So you allege. And yet "the gay lobbies" would have no business targetting churches on such grounds. Like I said - read section 14 of the Equality Act.

David.

 

[David Brider]

The question is how far are the UK goverment prepared to go to ostracize a community which proportionally contributes so much charity and voluntary work to the community?

Who's being ostracised?

David.

 

[Awesome_Frog]

Who's being ostracised?

David.

I think its him who feels ostracized. I've already backed him into a corner and it seems that he has left because the obvious answer is that his position makes no sense.

So instead of admitting it, he ran away and will probably start this entire argument over from scratch in another thread. The truth dosen't matter, only said person's political dogma.

Its hard for people to admit when they are wrong.

Another reason I tend to avoid heavy debate in these topics. It usually just ends in either dishonesty or head aches.

 

[Phinehas2]

Awesome Frog,

And your God says the world is wicked and the kingdom is at hand, and the world will not change, so accept him and receive his gift of eternal life in heaven.

yes. Good news hey? I look at the world and I see plenty of death and suffering.

So what. By making or opposing legislation, you are making people want to listen to you less. Its quite obvious why Paul and Jesus told you guys not to bother trying to changing the world. When people don't want to listen to you, you walk away.

On the contrary you are showing exactly what I said, having heard what some of the sin is they decide they wont tolerate hearing it is sin.
They didn’t crucify Christ because He healed the sick and reached out to the poor and marginalised, they crificed Him for who he claimed to be and what He taught. Same with most of the apostles and many NT disciples. Paul argued against false idols and gods and got imprisoned and beaten for it.

And you still don't seem to understand that its no going to change anything, world is still going to be evil and you forgot that when people refuse your message you are supposed to walk away, not keep pushing forward.

Of course there will still be evil occurring, but why vote for it?

Millions of people are coming to Christ in many places in the world, the dark areas are now the western countries, particularly Europe and North America. God rejoices at even one who comes to faith, He wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance.

And?

As I say millions are coming to faith in Christ, so the gospel doesn’t always harden hearts.

Answer me this one question. How is the opposition to same sex unions going to make life any better?

Well its better for society, how can you possibly be for partnerships that are so dysfunctional?
As to this legislation it is non-believers trying to force unbelief onto believers.
I mean if I said my mother was a man most people in the street would suspect I might have some psychological problems but when David Furness goes down on a computer record as a mother people seem not to bat an eyelid.
Insanity!

 

[Phinehas2]

David Brider,

You aren't answering my question.

yes I have fully, if you are still struggling get some help.

At this point all your doing is moaning and groaning about something your own God already answered.

I have shown you by links, the position of the Christian churches which hold to the Biblical testimony that same sex relations are sin. Why do you call such a position of my God? It seems you are implying I am not a Christian.

 

[Phinehas2]

David Brider,

What's sexually immoral about wanting to get married?

Well you have already been shown that from the word of God that it is detestbale and error when its two people of the same sex. You making baseless claims to the contrary is hardly convincing anyone who isn't blinded to the obvious.

 

[lux et lex]

Lux et Lex,
Better an out of date claim in amongst up to date ones, than no claim at all. [/b]
next point please.

Well, are you going to change your links or not? I don't appreciate my church being slandered like that.

 

[Awesome_Frog]

Awesome Frog,
yes. Good news hey? I look at the world and I see plenty of death and suffering.
On the contrary you are showing exactly what I said, having heard what some of the sin is they decide they wont tolerate hearing it is sin.
They didn’t crucify Christ because He healed the sick and reached out to the poor and marginalised, they crificed Him for who he claimed to be and what He taught. Same with most of the apostles and many NT disciples. Paul argued against false idols and gods and got imprisoned and beaten for it.

You are not doing what I asked you to do, you are actually avoiding my question all together and preaching about the giving the Gospel, when that's not what I'm talking about. So far no one is stopping you from preaching the Gospel. You just seem to no understand the those of us that have told you that we don't care or have decided otherwise are getting annoyed when you won't fallow your own book's instructions to leave us alone.

Of course there will still be evil occurring, but why vote for it?

Why vote at all then? Why not spread the Gospel and let people decide for themselves?

Millions of people are coming to Christ in many places in the world, the dark areas are now the western countries, particularly Europe and North America. God rejoices at even one who comes to faith, He wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance.

We get it, we got it 10 posts ago, you have yet to justify why its so important to micromanage others lives yet. When are you going to give me a straight answer on this instead of just repeating the same things over and over?

Well its better for society, how can you possibly be for partnerships that are so dysfunctional?

No, its quite the opposite. The evidence is against you.

As to this legislation it is non-believers trying to force unbelief onto believers.

Nope, its giving non believers a choice, and believers are opposing the said choice. Once again, the evidence is against you.

I mean if I said my mother was a man most people in the street would suspect I might have some psychological problems but when David Furness goes down on a computer record as a mother people seem not to bat an eyelid.

So you have nothing as I've shown the entire time. Thank you for proving my point time and time again. And demonstrating to David exactly what I said was going to happen.

You dodged the question and ended in a misrepresentation based on dishonesty. Well done.

 

[lux et lex]

Who cares if the government "gets" Christianity? I don't. They are the government. I don't want them legislating my religion. I also don't want my religion legislating my government. Simple as that.

 

[Awesome_Frog]

I'm done. Phinehas2 has lost to me because he can't seem to do the very thing I asked.

I win. And with that I say, who cares. The world, that actually matters, has moved on and will continue to improve and equality will be met eventually.

His position no longer bothers me because he is now the minority that shrinks because of the logical trap I have shown.

At this point, his position is nothing but grasping at straws and will be laughable in a few years.

It was a good run, but the time has come for me to go to bed so in the morrow I can tackle the issues that actually mean something.

 

[Phinehas2]

Lus et Lex,

Well, are you going to change your links or not? I don't appreciate my church being slandered like that.

As you have seen others have endorsed the link. When are you going to get in line with your church?

 

[uberd00b]

The United Kingdom: steadily civilising Christianity since the 16th century.

(With the possible exception of Northern Ireland.)

 

[Phinehas2]

Awesome Frog,

So far no one is stopping you from preaching the Gospel.

I am not talking about me, I am talking about the government imposing things on the churches which the Christian churches hold as wrong and cant and wont do. I suggest if you want people to address your points you address theirs.

Why vote at all then? Why not spread the Gospel and let people decide for themselves?

Christians will do that regardless, but why vote for what one doesn’t want? Sorry I don’t get your logic there.

We get it, we got it 10 posts ago, you have yet to justify why its so important to micromanage others lives yet.

What like paedophiles? We would be in agreement to micromanage them wouldn’t we? What you fail to realise is the Christian churches cant and wont be micromanaged by the government promoting what is contrary for them.

When are you going to give me a straight answer on this instead of just repeating the same things over and over?

Likewise.

No, its quite the opposite. The evidence is against you.

No the evidence so far is completely against your view, the scriptures, the position of the Christian churches and anatomy.
I get the impression that many here think their baseless views without any linked or quoted/cited evidence is good enough to overturn reality.

Nope, its giving non believers a choice, and believers are opposing the said choice. Once again, the evidence is against you.

And once again the evidence is all for me. Why would a non-believer want to do what a believer does? Touche. This is supporting non-belief as an attack against belief and believers. In effect the government is deciding it likes non-belief better than belief and gives support to disbelief and dissidence in the church at the expense of the believers and the Christian churches.

So you have nothing as I've shown the entire time. Thank you for proving my point time and time again. And demonstrating to David exactly what I said was going to happen.

Ok if you didn’t want to address my point you should not have wasted my time.

You dodged the question and ended in a misrepresentation based on dishonesty. Well done.

Bravo, you dodged the question. As I said if I said my mother was a man most people in the street would suspect I might have some psychological problems but when David Furness goes down on a computer record as a mother people seem not to bat an eyelid. We are dealing with homosexual worldviews that have lost a sense of reality.

 

[David Brider]

David Brider,
Well you have already been shown that from the word of God that it is detestbale and error when its two people of the same sex.

Detestable and error when two people of the same sex get married? No, you've shown me a few things, but nothing that says that. Nor anything that connects "sexual immorality" with marriage.

David.

 

[Psudopod]

Well you have already been shown that from the word of God that it is detestbale and error when its two people of the same sex. You making baseless claims to the contrary is hardly convincing anyone who isn't blinded to the obvious.

Where? Where in the bible does it say anything like "it is detestable and in error when two people of the same sex marry"?