U.K. plan would allow same-sex unions in church

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Ar Cosc

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To the anti-homosexuals on this thread;

You don't like homosexual activity. We get that. So don't be homosexuals, that's fine, that's your choice. But what makes you think you have any sort of authority to force other people to completely change their lifestyle, which wasn't hurting anyone?

If you think homosexuality should be outlawed because it is a "sin", you should outlaw eating shellfish, non-kosher meat, gathering sticks on the Sabbath, and being a non-Christian.
 
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Belk

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Belk,
Football matches occur all the time with a referee to make sure the rules are followed. I know what the rules are as well. Not sure what you don’t understand abut this.

Are you, or are you not, an authority on who can or can not be called a footballer? You see from what I understand of Christianity God is the only one who can say who is or is not Christian. Now you claim you know what God defines as a christian or not. However there seems to be a large amount of disagreement amongst different Christians on who exactly does or does not have the correct info. As such I will take your insistence that you have the one true interpretation of what is required to be Christian with a rather large grain of salt.

No not in His stead nor did I claim that, I specifically referred to His Biblical testimony.

And no one has ever misinterpreted what the bible says, have they? :p
 
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Phinehas2

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ArCosc,
To the anti-homosexuals on this thread;
Are there any? You might thinks so, I don’t.

You don't like homosexual activity. We get that. So don't be homosexuals, that's fine, that's your choice. But what makes you think you have any sort of authority to force other people to completely change their lifestyle, which wasn't hurting anyone?
What makes you think it isn’t hurting anyone?

The issue here is homosexuals are free to form partnerships which have the same rights as marriage, what they are not free to do is try and change religious views so that they match homosexual ones.

If you think homosexuality should be outlawed because it is a "sin", you should outlaw eating shellfish, non-kosher meat, gathering sticks on the Sabbath, and being a non-Christian.
Well two things here. Firstly the Biblical testimony calls it sin throughout and that is recognised by the Christian churches.

Secondly the likes of prohibitions of eating shellfish are OT covenant, not NT grace. I suggest you put the homosexual position and leave the Christian position to the Christian churches.
 
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Phinehas2

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Belk,
Are you, or are you not, an authority on who can or can not be called a footballer?
Yes I played football; I coach a young peoples football team and sometimes referee. Of course I can be called a footballer.

You see from what I understand of Christianity God is the only one who can say who is or is not Christian. Now you claim you know what God defines as a christian or not.
No, my point was Christianity is already defined as is football. Football has a set of rules and Christianity has a set of beliefs.

There is not a large amount of disagreement amongst Christians on this matter, all the major mainstream Christian churches hold to the scriptures of which there is no doubt. There is no scriptural support for homosexual relations and there is plenty of exclusion and condemnation of it.
Now had you ever considered that agnostics had got it terribly wrong and Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life?
 
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Belk

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Belk,
Yes I played football; I coach a young peoples football team and sometimes referee. Of course I can be called a footballer.
No, my point was Christianity is already defined as is football. Football has a set of rules and Christianity has a set of beliefs.
There is not a large amount of disagreement amongst Christians on this matter, all the major mainstream Christian churches hold to the scriptures of which there is no doubt. There is no scriptural support for homosexual relations and there is plenty of exclusion and condemnation of it.
Now had you ever considered that agnostics had got it terribly wrong and Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life?


demonstrably false. You are once again claiming that you have the authority to say what is or is not christian and simply dismissing anyone who disagrees with you. I do not find Ipsie Dixit a compelling argument.
 
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Ar Cosc

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ArCosc,
Are there any? You might thinks so, I don’t.

What makes you think it isn’t hurting anyone?

The issue here is homosexuals are free to form partnerships which have the same rights as marriage, what they are not free to do is try and change religious views so that they match homosexual ones.
They're free to try to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't involve forcing people to do things. They're not forcing churches to marry them, the law simply allows churches who have no problem with gay marriage to marry gays. Nothing more.

Well two things here. Firstly the Biblical testimony calls it sin throughout and that is recognised by the Christian churches.
Secondly the likes of prohibitions of eating shellfish are OT covenant, not NT grace. I suggest you put the homosexual position and leave the Christian position to the Christian churches.


So you say, but that's just a rationalisation. Show me the chapter and verse where the OT laws are incontrovertibly repealed.
 
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Phinehas2

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Ar Cosc,
They're not forcing churches to marry them, the law simply allows churches who have no problem with gay marriage to marry gays. Nothing more.
NO. The problem as explained is, thye will try and force the Christian churches that know same sex partnerships are error under the equalities law.
Sadly they wont be able to force the Christian churches as the Govenermnet cant afford to lose what the churches contribute to society. Nor will the Muslims be forced, and the LGBT lobbies will be too scared to even try with the Muslims.

So you say, but that's just a rationalisation. Show me the chapter and verse where the OT laws are incontrovertibly repealed.
No, thats already been shown. Plus what the Christian churches position is.
 
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Phinehas2

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Belk,
demonstrably false.
You obviously dont tunderstand the meaning of demonstrably. Demonstarably means to demonstrate which I have done with links. All you have done is give your baseless opinion. (which is demonstrably wrong)
You are once again claiming that you have the authority to say what is or is not christian and simply dismissing anyone who disagrees with you. I do not find Ipsie Dixit a compelling argument.
No, I have given the links to what the Christian churches position is so quit attacking me and address the evidence.
 
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wanderingone

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Ar Cosc,
NO. The problem as explained is, thye will try and force the Christian churches that know same sex partnerships are error under the equalities law.

Really? Because in the US states where same sex MARRIAGE is legal don't force clergy to perform weddings for same sex couples. Clergy are allowed to discriminate when determining who they will perform ceremonies for.

Does the UK currently require religious entities to comply with anti discrimination laws when it comes to faith issues.. such as who can be a priest etc..? Discrimination is allowed in the name of faith here, not sure how different it is in the UK. I see no reason to assume they will force all churches to allow same sex weddings.
 
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Skaloop

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Really? Because in the US states where same sex MARRIAGE is legal don't force clergy to perform weddings for same sex couples. Clergy are allowed to discriminate when determining who they will perform ceremonies for.

Ditto for Canada. We've had SSM nation-wide for several years now, and there has been only once instance of anything that could even be considered close to forcing clergy to marry same-sex couples. A lesbian couple wanted to rent a hall for their reception. The hall was run by a church group. When the church group found out it was for a lesbian couple, they cancelled the rental. They were sued, and lost. This was not a church, or even on church grounds. It was a building the church owned that it rented to the public for events. In the ruling, it was even stated that the church group could have refused the rental on religious grounds. They lost the suit, however, because of how they went about it. If they had refused up front, they would have been in the clear. But they broke a contract, and that was why they lost.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20051129/tribunal_lesbiancouple_051129/
 
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Belk

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Belk,
You obviously dont tunderstand the meaning of demonstrably. Demonstarably means to demonstrate which I have done with links. All you have done is give your baseless opinion. (which is demonstrably wrong)
Au contraire. I know exactly what demonstrably means. That would be why I used it. So are you trying to claim that all these denominations List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
believe basically the same thing? Why would they need to split apart then? Even just on the issue of homosexuality there is a large number of different opinions.

No, I have given the links to what the Christian churches position is so quit attacking me and address the evidence.

I'm not attacking you. I am refuting that you have any authority to say what is or is not a christian position. As long as you keep claiming that you are the sole possessor of the one true christian path (tm) I will continue to question it. :wave:
 
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lux et lex

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I noticed you posted the same links on the Chik Fil-A post. And in case you didn't see it there, here is my response, again.

Well I'm going to throw your Lutheran claim right out the door as it is not up to date. Homosexual clergy can be called, and they are not asked to remain celibate, but can be or can be a part of a monogamous relationship. And we also allow blessings of homosexual unions. TRY AGAIN. __________________
 
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PolarQuest

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I think we can agree to disagree. God does not force anyone to believe. If God forced us then we would be puppets. What we have here are verses in the Bible. Phinehas, SuperSoldie, Italian Guy I and He’sMyLordAlways have a more similar belief that what we believe God is saying in the Bible.

Others who hold that same Sex Marriage is ok in the eyes of God holds their belief. The Question is... Who is Right? At most any one forums people want to be right. There are meetings with Republicans and Democrats that I am sure. In these matters the government does not cease for these. Each party continues their quest in what they believe. If you believe that same sex marriage is ok then there is no problem. You attend the Churches that Espouse your beliefs.

But if you see there are Churches that call it a Sin. Do not be surprised and don’t go running after us saying we hate Homosexuals. Or don’t say that it is a Sin. Because I have seen of late plenty of articles of those who support the pro Gay life style to come down on Christians who teach that God says it is a Sin.

Indeed God will take care of all of this. But as I told a friend recently. A day is coming soon when they who say the act of Homosexuality is a sin will get in trouble for a hate crime. Satan and the Homosexual movements are going to get Christians in great trouble. The case of Homosexual marriage is supported by lots of people this day. And we who believe it to be a sin may be outnumbered. But that is Ok. In the Days of Noah He and His Family was outnumbered in Matthew 3 John the Baptist said. Indeed I baptize you with water. But He who is after me is greater than I am who I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire. And if you know what this Fire means. It means He Jesus has the Authority to Judge and even to Forgive because within Him was in dwelled the Holy Spirit.

It says that in His hand is a winnowing fan and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor. The wheat shall be stored in the barn and the chaff will be burned in unqueunchable fire.

Who are the wheat who is called to the harvest to be stored in the barn for safety? Who is the chaff that will burn in unquenchable fire the Lake of fire described in Revelation? I leave judgment in the hands of the Lord to discern these things who goes where for eternity. The Lord will and with his Holy Angels gather the harvest at the end of the age. In this life we have all chosen what we have wanted to believe and what we wanted to do in what we believe. God will discern the righteous from the unrighteous. He will discern good and evil. He will discern right and wrong. He will discern pure and un-pure. For out of his mouth in Revelation is a double edge sword. For by this sword of His power and by His word He will divide as a sword. Although the Lord does not force us to believe at many times you might not have know He has sent messengers out. You believe God or not. For the Lord does not desire that anyone should perish but have Eternal life in Him. Even though that is the Lords desire we the people make the choice to believe God or not. The Lord does not follow us and live after us and our ways. But quite the opposite. We are to follow God and follow His ways. If you then believe God is ok for same sex marriage then resume in what you believe if that is what you believe. Not I or any Church or even God will stop you in this if that is what you believe.

But know then at the end of this age God will gather the harvest then sow the seed for wheat share it with others. They who have truly have sowed seed for wheat will enter Heaven with Jesus. They who sowed seeds for Wees will not be gathered in the barn. God does not want no one to perish. Yet Hell is still there for that Judgment. You really want to go to Heaven. Listen to God, to Jesus and of the Holy Spirit that teaches one His ways and His Truth. Only God can reveal His true self. Do you truly seek Him and after His ways?

Go if you wish to teach Homosexuality is fine by God. And we will teach that it is not. Let us then wait for the harvest you have not to answer to any of us. When God says then none of us can then argue. We know that God is always right.
 
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Phinehas2

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Belk,
Au contraire. I know exactly what demonstrably means. That would be why I used it. So are you trying to claim that all these denominations List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
believe basically the same thing? Why would they need to split apart then? Even just on the issue of homosexuality there is a large number of different opinions.
No there isnt, there is just a number of dissenters within the churches trying the same spin as your argument here.


I'm not attacking you. I am refuting that you have any authority to say what is or is not a christian position. As long as you keep claiming that you are the sole possessor of the one true christian path (tm) I will continue to question it.
The Christian position can be seen by the evidence of what the overwhelming majority of mainstream Christian churches believe on this matter, not your view or the views of some other posters here. You need to address the evidence to see that what I am saying is correct and what you are saying isnt.
 
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Phinehas2

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Lux et Lex,
Well I'm going to throw your Lutheran claim right out the door as it is not up to date. Homosexual clergy can be called, and they are not asked to remain celibate, but can be or can be a part of a monogamous relationship. And we also allow blessings of homosexual unions. TRY AGAIN
Better an out of date claim in amongst up to date ones, than no claim at all.
next point please.
 
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Phinehas2

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PolarQuest is right,
The likes of those of us he mentions know exactly what we believe and can see exactly what is happening.
However, as to the question who is right, it might be worth pointing out we can understand the words and sentences each other post, but we cant seem to agree on all the Bible verses I and PolarQuest post means what they say. How come?
As I said if we had some people claiming the earth was flat and some the earth was round, and those claiming it was round produced photos showing it was round, on this forum we would still probably have to agree to differ not knowing who was right.
Sorry but the Bible is clear God created male and female to be in union and same sex relations are sin and error. All we get is disbelief of God’s word, no scripture to even support same sex relations.

We know what we are up against, the number of LGBT sites that attack the Bible, even gay guest houses and gay retreats, shows the intentions of the gay lobbies.

God will discern the righteous from the unrighteous. He will discern good and evil. He will discern right and wrong. He will discern pure and un-pure. For out of his mouth in Revelation is a double edge sword. For by this sword of His power and by His word He will divide as a sword.
Amen, we know this, amen.


Go if you wish to teach Homosexuality is fine by God. And we will teach that it is not. Let us then wait for the harvest you have not to answer to any of us. When God says then none of us can then argue. We know that God is always right.

The fact is we will teach it and though not a majority there are many of us. Nero burned Christians for lighting at night, what is western society prepared to do to us merely for holding our faith in God?
 
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David Brider

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NO. The problem as explained is, thye will try and force the Christian churches that know same sex partnerships are error under the equalities law.

No. The new law, if passed, won't force anybody to do anything. It will allow those churches, and other religious groups such as Jewish synagogues, which are happy to do so to hold same-sex civil partnership ceremonies on their premises and to bless those partnerships.

David.
 
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David Brider

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Go if you wish to teach Homosexuality is fine by God.

Actually, this isn't about homosexuality. It's about allowing same-sex partnership ceremonies to be held in churches.

There's a connection (because most same-sex couples will likely consist of two homosexuals, but by no means all), but they're not the same thing.

David.
 
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Phinehas2

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David Brider,
No. The new law, if passed, won't force anybody to do anything. It will allow those churches which are happy to do so to hold same-sex civil partnership ceremonies on their premises and to bless those partnerships.
As I said the danger with this new law is that the gay lobbies will seek to attack churches under the equalities law. You seem unwilling to address that point. We are not fooled already such a danger is being voiced.
 
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