Two Witnesses ...

[YeShallTread]

I see the time frame as the same time for the two witnesses and the 144,000 as they are the same. The two witnesses are two groups of witnesses and they are the two groups of 144,000. I base that, in part, on:


Revelation 7:3-4 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



The tribes, one group of 144,000, sing the Song of Moses found in [Deuteronomy 32], while the other group sing "a new song" which only they could learn.


Revelation 14:1-4 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Both groups get "the victory" and here we see the two groups of 144,000 together where both songs (song of Moses and the new song, song of the Lamb) are being sung:


Revelation 15:1-3 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


That, to my mind, shows there are two groups of 144,000 and I believe Scripture points to the two witnesses being two groups. I do agree that there will be strong individuals to speak and guide the two groups, as you have stated. I see them as the "man child," but I see them as more than two individuals. However, I'm still working on the differences, if any, in the two witnesses and the man child. I know they are who they are but don't yet fully understand if they are the same.

Figuratively I see Israel not as the literal nation but as God's church, righteous believers, while I see "Jerusalem" not as the literal city but as the two groups of 144,000 witnesses. If true then "Zion" who is found within Jerusalem might represent the man child. It is they who receive the latter rain (greater understanding in order to teach).

Above I wrote:

Figuratively I see Israel not as the literal nation but as God's church, righteous believers, while I see "Jerusalem" not as the literal city but as the two groups of 144,000 witnesses. If true then "Zion" who is found within Jerusalem might represent the man child. It is they who receive the latter rain (greater understanding in order to teach).



I just came across the following and believe it substantiates that thought:


Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


In Zion and in Jerusalem "shall be delieverance." Why, how? Because IN Zion and Jerusalem (in the witnesses and the man child) is our Lord Savior, our Deliverer. He dwells and walks in His people. We are the spiritual Jerusalem and Zion. We are the witnesses and man child for we are His temple.


2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[LLWHA]

11:3 And I will give [power] unto my Two Witnesses (Isa. 43:12), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore "days", clothed in sackcloth. (42 months of 30 "days" each = 1260 "days", each day for a year - Num. 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Dan. 12:7).
11:4 These are the two "Olive" trees, and the two candlesticks (Ephraim and Manasseh) standing before the God of the earth.
11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire (gun-fire which looked as though it) proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it "rain" (spiritually) not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over "waters" (ch. 17:15) to turn them to blood (reds), and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their Testimony (the 1260 "days" ended on 9/Dec./1917 - the day that Jerusalem was liberated from Gentile domination by Israel - British forces - Ezekiel 25:14), the beast (system - Satanic) that ascendeth out of the Bottomless Pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL them.

Olive tree means House of Israel, Fig Tree The Jews. The two candlesticks are the UK and u.s.A.

These two brought the Holy Bible around the world but do not do as the Bible tells them to do. They preach Demon crazy (democracy) and left and right politics (Blood sucking Poli*many, ticks*bloodsuckers) Babylonian market system and usury.
These two will lose a great war and many of their people will be taken off in ships to be slaves again. Many will repent and rise from the ashes.

11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of Life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

The three and a half days could be 35 years in Bible code?

 

[PureDose]

Okay, so you believe Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are the two witnesses.

I think one could just go ahead and say that... it took me awhile to piece together what you were saying.

I find it implausible for a number of reasons, of course, right off hand, but I don't know much about them.

I do know that Beck is a very successful talk show host, or was, and he quit. There was no earthquake involved, I do not believe he preached in sackcloth, I think he was extremely popular and remains extremely popular... he did not die, and surely did not rise up to Heaven.

I am not aware of anyone wanting to kill him.

 

[NumberOneSon]

I think he was extremely popular and remains extremely popular... he did not die, and surely did not rise up to Heaven.

I am not aware of anyone wanting to kill him.

NHE thinks Glenn and Pat's ministry will end on 12/24/12. Not sure if that entails death or not. See here.

 

[dana b]

Above I wrote:

Figuratively I see Israel not as the literal nation but as God's church, righteous believers, while I see "Jerusalem" not as the literal city but as the two groups of 144,000 witnesses. If true then "Zion" who is found within Jerusalem might represent the man child. It is they who receive the latter rain (greater understanding in order to teach).



I just came across the following and believe it substantiates that thought:


Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


In Zion and in Jerusalem "shall be delieverance." Why, how? Because IN Zion and Jerusalem (in the witnesses and the man child) is our Lord Savior, our Deliverer. He dwells and walks in His people. We are the spiritual Jerusalem and Zion. We are the witnesses and man child for we are His temple.


2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Going along with what you say above is the much quoted verse "the law proceeds out of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. "The Law" means the Old Testement Covenant of Moses. It is the law of Justice stateing "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

The "word of the Lord" was spoken from Jerusalem by our Lord Jesus Christ. He added the concepts of compassion, forginess and mercy to the Old Testament Law of Justice. This can be seen in the many examples of his healing even though it broke the law of the Sabbath. These two, "the Law of Justice" and the "mercy and compassion of Christianity" are the two witnesses to all mens European mens's hearts and minds over the past 2000 years.(times of the gentiles Lk.21;24

 

[dana b]

 

[dana b]

 

[LastSeven]

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The word "for" is not in the text. "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" is the title of their message. Sometime study the message of 1260 it's very important.

What is the message of 1260? Can you give us an overview?

 

[dana b]

What is the message of 1260? Can you give us an overview?

Here is an overview of the number 1260 and the other numeric formulas which equal the same.

 

[dana b]

 

[dana b]

This calculation shows us when the time of the end(last millenium) began.

 

[LastSeven]

Here is an overview of the number 1260 and the other numeric formulas which equal the same.

dana, I think ptom is talking about something else. I'd like to hear from him what he thinks the message is if 1260 is the title as opposed to a time frame.

 

[dana b]

dana, I think ptom is talking about something else. I'd like to hear from him what he thinks the message is if 1260 is the title as opposed to a time frame.

Your a good man seven!

 

[NightHawkeye]

Okay, so you believe Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are the two witnesses.

Hi, PureDose.

More correctly, the circumstances surrounding Glenn Beck and Pat Gray appear to be in accordance with what is written regarding the "two witnesses" prophecy.

I think one could just go ahead and say that... it took me awhile to piece together what you were saying.

I like to avoid misunderstanding. Communication about prophecy tends to be prone to misunderstanding.

I find it implausible for a number of reasons, of course, right off hand, but I don't know much about them.[/quote]
That's a correctable problem,

Here, allow me to help ...

As an observer of the obvious ... At the time I made that post, July 2010, Glenn Beck and Pat Gray were the only major media figures saying "turn to God".

Since that time:
Beck held the "Restoring Honor" rally in Washington with about 600,000 close friends.
Beck held the "Restoring Courage" rally in Israel at a time when our President threw Israel under the bus.
Beck is holding "Restoring Love" in Dallas this coming July.
Beck has started his own internet newspaper: Breaking news and opinion on The Blaze
Beck has started his own internet daily television broadcasts. GBTV.com: The Home of the New Glenn Beck Program

I do know that Beck is a very successful talk show host, or was, and he quit.

He still is ...

There was no earthquake involved ...

The earthquake I referenced was the Japanese tsunami. It's a matter of fact that the tsunami occurred, just as it's a matter of fact that Glenn Beck's disappearance from the airwaves that week had been unannounced.

Note that there is no guesswork or speculation in those matters.

I do not believe he preached in sackcloth ...

Any who pays attention to Glenn Beck understands that his message over the past few years has been largely a song of mourning about how far this country ... even the majority of the "civilized world" has strayed from truth and God. That would seem to be the very definition of sackcloth.

I think he was extremely popular and remains extremely popular...

True.

... he did not die ...

LOL ... he does seem very much alive.

... and surely did not rise up to Heaven.

If you can provide the definition for heaven perhaps we could ponder that.

I am not aware of anyone wanting to kill him.

Mostly, such things remain hidden unless they

 

[PureDose]

Hi, PureDose.

More correctly, the circumstances surrounding Glenn Beck and Pat Gray appear to be in accordance with what is written regarding the "two witnesses" prophecy.


I like to avoid misunderstanding. Communication about prophecy tends to be prone to misunderstanding.

That's a correctable problem,

Here, allow me to help ...


He still is ...

The earthquake I referenced was the Japanese tsunami. It's a matter of fact that the tsunami occurred, just as it's a matter of fact that Glenn Beck's disappearance from the airwaves that week had been unannounced.

Note that there is no guesswork or speculation in those matters.


Any who pays attention to Glenn Beck understands that his message over the past few years has been largely a song of mourning about how far this country ... even the majority of the "civilized world" has strayed from truth and God. That would seem to be the very definition of sackcloth.


True.


LOL ... he does seem very much alive.


If you can provide the definition for heaven perhaps we could ponder that.


Mostly, such things remain hidden unless they

So you are saying he will die towards the end of this year and people will celebrate his death?

You understand that these "two" are spoken of in Zechariah, as being The Two who stand before God? I mean, when Gabriel cursed John's father, he did so saying he stood before God.

They are also called the Messiah, the Anointed -- literally.

 

[NightHawkeye]

So you are saying he will die towards the end of this year and people will celebrate his death?

LOL ... You want me to proclaim with certainty what I do not know with certainty. Like I said, I'm not a prophet who can foretell the future. I simply observe and comment on the obvious.

You understand that these "two" are spoken of in Zechariah, as being The Two who stand before God? I mean, when Gabriel cursed John's father, he did so saying he stood before God.

They are also called the Messiah ...

Not seeing them called the Messiah, PureDose.

... the Anointed -- literally.

True.

Zechariah 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. 10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Zechariah 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. 3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. 4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.
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There is also here the curse which goes forth. No doubt that's related to the point Achilles has been making ...

 

[ptomwebster]

Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are not the "two witnesses."

 

[NightHawkeye]

Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are not the "two witnesses."

Correction.

Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are most assuredly two witnesses. At a time when the rest of the media had become decidedly secular, they witnessed to God.

Perhaps you meant to say they are not the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation. About that, I have no argument with your opinion.

 

[ptomwebster]

Correction.

Glenn Beck and Pat Gray are most assuredly two witnesses. At a time when the rest of the media had become decidedly secular, they witnessed to God.

Perhaps you meant to say they are not the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation. About that, I have no argument with your opinion.

This topic is about the two witnesses of Rev it is not about just any two people. My use of the definate article "the" signifies who I am speaking about.

 

[NightHawkeye]

This topic is about the two witnesses of Rev it is not about just any two people. My use of the definate article "the" signifies who I am speaking about.

Glad you don't disagree about Glenn Beck and Pat Gray being "two witnesses". Let's examine what has been written about "the" two witnesses of Revelation then.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
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Hmm ... whatever the "holy city" is, it is tread underfoot for three and one-half years, by Gentiles, the Assyrian, beast, little horn, anti-christ, abomination of desolation, etc. The different prophets used various names to describe the event.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
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During this time of distress, God brings forth two witnesses to testify before mankind ... presumably to teach, in addition to tormenting the enemies of God. Clearly, the witnesses are mourning the loss of the holy city they knew. And, just as in the day of Moses, pharoah and others in power do not believe someone speaking truthfully who dares to come before great and powerful men speaking plain and simple truth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
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Truth has always been more powerful than any two-edged sword.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
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The witnesses obviously torment the bejeebers out of the enemies of God with their testimony.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
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Clearly this is not good for the two witnesses, regardless of what the exact meaning might be.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
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It seems clear here that the enemies of truth felt particularly tormented by the two witnesses.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
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Here, it would seem that the witnesses are rewarded for their continuing actions, while seven thousand men are slain by the earthquake.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
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