Trinity --- true or false?

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Willtor

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It is quite simple.
What did Jesus say about his being God?
Never 1 single time did Jesus himself say he was god or equal to GOD!!!!!

He used the tetragrammaton on himself. He frequently used terminology that set himself equal to God and caused people to want to stone him for it.

How many times did he point to his Father as the ONLY true GOD?

Many times.

Was it Jesus or someone else who said the Father is greater than I?

It was Jesus. (John 14:28)

Was it Jesus or someone else who told use to pray to his Father?

Both/And.

Did Jesus ever say to pray to himself?

No, if the Son glorified himself, his glory would be nothing (John 8:54).

WWJD
The answer is clear, he would and does worship his Father,prays to his Father, Looks up to his Father.
just my thoughts, just human

Yes, that is what he does. I have to think that you think that this is a strike against Trinitarianism, but it isn't.
 
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just human

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He used the tetragrammaton on himself. He frequently used terminology that set himself equal to God and caused people to want to stone him for it.
I would really like to see these, as I don't think there are. They wanted to stone him for claiming to be Jehovah's son but I don't know of any where it was for claiming to be Jehovah. I have never seen someone try to reference Jesus with YHWH in scripture.

Those were my thoughts and they are a few of the reasons why I don't believe in the Christian form of the Trinity.
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[SIZE=-1]I would really like to see these, as I don't think there are. They wanted to stone him for claiming to be Jehovah's son but I don't know of any where it was for claiming to be Jehovah. I have never seen someone try to reference Jesus with YHWH in scripture.

Those were my thoughts and they are a few of the reasons why I don't believe in the Christian form of the Trinity.
just human[/SIZE]

Here are several passages from the OT which refer to [SIZE=+1]יהוה[/size]/YHWH paired with verses in the NT which apply [[SIZE=+1]יהוה[/size]/YHWH] to Jesus.
Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [[SIZE=+1]יהוה[/size]] [/font]] , make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mark 1:3 Luke 3:4 John 1:23]
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Ps 8:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.>> O LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

N.T. reference.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
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Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; [/size]] of hosts.

N.T. reference.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, [John] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways;
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Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

N.T. reference.
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
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Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]]: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him [the Lord Jesus vs. 9] shall not be ashamed.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
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Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] shall call.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus vs. 9] shall be saved.
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Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

N.T. reference.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, [Christ, vs. 10] every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
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Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:for in these things I delight, saith the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] .

N.T. reference.
1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
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Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

N.T. reference.
2 Tim 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
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Ps 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

N.T. reference.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
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Ps 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
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Ps 45:6 ¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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Ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;[/size]] /Yeshuah] shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

N.T. reference.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, [Jesus/[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;[/size]] /Yeshua] in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
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Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ vs. 16]
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Zech 12:10 And I [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

N.T. reference.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
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Jer 17:10 I the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

N.T. reference.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
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Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isaiah 62:11 Behold, the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;[/size]/Yeshuah] cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

N.T. reference.
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, (Isa 40:10, 62:11), to give every man according as his work (Ps 62:12, 34:8) shall be.
13 I [Jesus/[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;[/size]/Yeshua] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12)
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John said Isaiah saw Jesus, Isaiah said he saw [size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]/YHWH.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Is 6:1)
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
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Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
 
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[SIZE=-1]So from your verses we still have no evidence of the Trinity, where is Yahweh the Holy spirit?[/SIZE]
I am so glad you asked this question. I have posted a few times citing about 30-40 passages of scripture, which you seem to have completely disregarded, and post one sentence in reply.

Your reply is a logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Evidently you think because there are some verses that do not mention the holy spirit that somehow supports your argument. I might use the same fallacious argument to "prove" that Jesus only had 3 disciples because he only had 3 with him on the mount of transfiguration.

Forty-six passages of scripture that mention, all three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, and clearly understood by those present as distinct from each other.

Each of the first eight passages, below, Tit 3:4-6, Jud 1:20-21, 2 Co 13:14, Rom 15:30, 1 Pet 1:2, Act 2:38-39, Rom 15:12-13, and Rom 15:16, all show the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit having different roles, functions, or attributes in relation to mankind and salvation.
1. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2. Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

3. Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

4. 2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

5. Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

6. 1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

7. Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call

8. Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

9. Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

10. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

11. Joh 3:5 Jesus answecrimson, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

12. Luk 4:18 [Jesus speaking] The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

13. 1 Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

14. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he [Jesus] shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

15. Luk 1:35 And the angel answecrimson and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

16. Mat 12:18 [God speaking] Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

17. Mat 12:28 But if I [Jesus] cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

18. Luk 11:13 [Jesus speaking] if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

19. Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

20. Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost :

21. Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

22. Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

23. Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​
 
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24. Eph 2:18 For through him [Jesus] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

25. Mat 3:16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, [the Father] saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

26. Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. [Jesus]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me [the Father] to baptize with water, the same [the Father] said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, [Jesus] the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

27. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of crimsonemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

28. Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

29. Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation[size=+1]*[/size],
[size=+1]*[/size] “thy salvation” in Hebrew is &#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1468;&#1506;&#1492;/Yeshuah.” Which is pronounced exactly like the savior’s name in Hebrew, &#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1468;&#1506;/Yeshua
30. Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

31. Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offecrimson himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

32. Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

33. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

34.1 Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

35. 1 Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

36. 1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffecrimson for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

37. 1 Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave [coplor=crimson]him[/color] glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

38. Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

39. 1 Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

40. 2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

41. 1 Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.

42. Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

43. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

44. Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

45. Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

46. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.​
 
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I didn't bother looking all of the references up but I noticed a patteren in the ones I did read, they are taken out of context! The application is totally wrong , for instance Luke 1:76 has nothing to do with Jesus. it is about Jehovah using John the Baptist to preach salvation from sin by Jehovah fullfilling his covenant with Abraham for salvation from his enemies. The messege John would be preaching was salvation through the promised Messiah Jesus, but one needs to read at least 10 verses prior to and 4 verses afterwards and see Jehovah, YHWH , LORD all caps, depending on translation is referenced several times and Jesus or Lord not all caps, not once.
This is the same things the preachers do to try and decieve those who listen to them, it is just plain wrong and by only distinguishing Jesus from Jehovah by the use of Lord for Jesus and LORD for YHWH, Jehovah is why this deception goes on!!!!
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John said Isaiah saw Jesus, Isaiah said he saw [SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/SIZE]/YHWH.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Is 6:1)
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/SIZE]] of hosts.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​
Again what I see is reference to what Isaiah said about the people of his day being quoted to show it was the same with people in Jesus day. John is comparing Isaiah's statement of how things were in his day to how things are then in Jesus time. It is a quote or comparasin. John never said isaiah saw Jesus. maybe it would help to use a clearer translation where a name like Isaiah in the old Testament is the same in the new so one more easily understands what is being said and who is speaking about who what when where and why, so a person can understand what is going on.
I am sorry but I am not going to go through each of your references and show where they are messed up, I don't have the time. but the leaps you are taking with trying to connect the dots for the sake of the Trinity don't work
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While I formulate my response to the 2 posts, above. Let us consder the verses relating to the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).
Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11.
Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15.
Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.
 
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[size=-1]Again what I see is reference to what Isaiah said about the people of his day being quoted to show it was the same with people in Jesus day. John is comparing Isaiah's statement of how things were in his day to how things are then in Jesus time. It is a quote or comparasin. John never said isaiah saw Jesus. maybe it would help to use a clearer translation where a name like Isaiah in the old Testament is the same in the new so one more easily understands what is being said and who is speaking about who what when where and why, so a person can understand what is going on.
I am sorry but I am not going to go through each of your references and show where they are messed up, I don't have the time. but the leaps you are taking with trying to connect the dots for the sake of the Trinity don't work
just human[/size]

So all you can say in response to me is “I’m right and you’re wrong, and I don’t have time to show you how, I think you are wrong?” Take your time, I’m going to be here for a while. Unless you do that I will assume, since you are doing a lot of posting here, you are not able to back up your claims.

You claim you only see a, “reference to what Isaiah said about the people of his day” Then you indicate you don’t understand what is going on because of the spelling of Isaiah’s name. So which is it? A good concordance, there are many online, will clear that right up.

We know John is talking about the prophet Isaiah because he quoted from the book of Isaiah. I indicated where in my post. In the passage I quoted, John speaks of only one “Him,” Jesus. And John states that Isaiah saw “Him.”
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Is 6:1)
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.​
This is NO comparison. You are adding words to make the text fit your assumptions and presuppositions. These are direct statements, there are no words of comparison, “Like unto,” “In the manner of,” etc. The same Him that Isaiah saw his glory, is the same Him that some of the chief rulers believed on.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.​
John did not say it was a comparison. He said, “I am the voice. . .as said the prophet.”
Matt 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came into the wilderness of Judea proclaiming, 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” 3:3 For he [John] is the one about whom Isaiah the prophet had spoken: “The voice of one shouting in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make his paths straight.’”​
Matthew did not say it was a comparison. He said, John “is the one about whom Isaiah the prophet had spoken:” Isaiah said that the forerunner would prepare the way for YHWH. John was the forerunner for Jesus. Jesus is YHWH.
[size=-1]I didn't bother looking all of the references up but I noticed a patteren in the ones I did read, they are taken out of context![/size]

IOW you can’t back up your claims either. If you think anything I posted is out of context then show me exactly where, otherwise this is a false accusation.

[size=-1]The application is totally wrong , for instance Luke 1:76 has nothing to do with Jesus. it is about Jehovah using John the Baptist to preach salvation from sin by Jehovah fullfilling his covenant with Abraham for salvation from his enemies.[/size]

Show me where this passage states what you claim here. Where is there any reference to Jehovah, Jehovah using John the Baptist.

[size=-1]The messege John would be preaching was salvation through the promised Messiah Jesus, but one needs to read at least 10 verses prior to and 4 verses afterwards and see Jehovah, YHWH , LORD all caps, depending on translation is referenced several times and Jesus or Lord not all caps, not once. [/size]

As I have shown above Luk 1:76 is about Jesus. We have a problem with misrepresentation here. The verses under discussion are in the N.T. The N.T. was written in Greek. YHWH is the transliteration of the Tetragrammaton, which is Hebrew. The Hebrew YHWH does NOT appear anywhere in any N.T. manuscripts. Your entire argument is void.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;​

[size=-1]This is the same things the preachers do to try and decieve those who listen to them, it is just plain wrong and by only distinguishing Jesus from Jehovah by the use of Lord for Jesus and LORD for YHWH, Jehovah is why this deception goes on!!!!
just human[/size]

This entire paragraph also has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Nothing I posted depends on your false differentiation between Lord for Jesus and LORD for YHWH, since YHWH, is Hebrew and NEVER appears in the N.T. And Jehovah is a grammatically false translation of the tetragammaton. The covenant name YHWH means “I Am.” Jehovah has no meaning in Hebrew.

The Greek word for God is [size=+1]&#952;&#949;&#959;&#962;[/size]/theos often shown as LORD in some versions. The Greek word [size=+1]&#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size]/kurios means lord or master, often written as Lord in some versions. But I would be careful with this argument because Lord is also used to translate [size=+1]&#952;&#949;&#959;&#962;[/size]/theos

NWT Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.​
Notice in this verse from the JW translation, [size=+1]&#952;&#949;&#959;&#962;[/size]/theos occurs twice. Of these two occurrences only the second one, which refers to the “only begotten,” has the definite article, “the God.” And the words translated “who is,” is [size=+1]&#959; &#969;&#957;[/size]. The significance of this is, these are the exact words used to translated ehyeh, “I am” EX 3:14 in the Septuagint.
 
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just human

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So long as you just clip a verse here and there instead of reading the entire surrounding verses you can make the Bible back up anything you want.
I already said to read the 8 verses before and 4 after Luke 1:76 and a person will see what is what and who is who.
Even a slow student of the Bible knows All Capital letters LORD, GOD refer to the Father and single capital L might be any person including Jesus by context.
I am not going to debate anything with you. I have no reason to waste my time.
You have tons of cut and paste laid up ready and waiting and it would be a total waste of my time to prove that I have a better understanding because you would listen anyway. You want to look good and argue while I could care less what you think of how I comprehend verses from context.

I never said I was confused I pointed out that by using the translation you used which wasn't consistent with the english form of Isaiah's name it seemed meant to confuse readers.
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Jesus was begotten of the Father and was given life unto himself, seperate of the Father. John 5:26


Many attempt to defend the trinity doctrine, but they choose to ignore much of scripture by doing so.

I can post one scripture, and there is much more that debunks the trinity doctrine, but because not one person has be able to make an argument that can disprove this one scripture, I have no need to post more.

God is not a God of confusion.

If God and Jesus are one in same, why would God go to the trouble of saying he begat his Son, when it was really himself?

This is confusion. And it is contrary to the Word of God. God would not say he begat his Son if it was not so.

Jesus is of God, but is not God the Father. Yet, should we call the Son God?

Certainly. The Father himself refers to the Son in Hebrews 1 as God, who are we not to do the same. The Son is the expressed image. His will is to do that of the Father. Jesus is the perfect will of the Father. He does only the will of his Father.


God the Father can have no association with sin. It is for this reason he begat his Son. And the Son was given the full athority of the Godhead, having the Holy Spirit without measure. He was begotten of the Father, and by the will of the Father through the unction of the Holy Spirit, all of creation came into being by the Son and through the Son.
 
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[size=-1]So long as you just clip a verse here and there instead of reading the entire surrounding verses you can make the Bible back up anything you want.
I already said to read the 8 verses before and 4 after Luke 1:76 and a person will see what is what and who is who.
[/size]
False accusation! I did not clip a verse here and there. I tried to post every verse I could on the point.

I read the verses you indicated and did not see what you claim. If you think these verses prove or disproves something you need to show how, not just make claims.

I showed you from two other passages that Luke 1:76 clearly refers to John and his mission to be the forerunner prophesied by Isaiah.
Joh 1:23 He [John] said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Matt 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came into the wilderness of Judea proclaiming, 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” 3:3 For he [John] is the one about whom Isaiah the prophet had spoken: “The voice of one shouting in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make his paths straight.’”​

Two witnesses, John was the forerunner prophesied by Isaiah. The forerunner prepared the way for YHWH.
[size=-1]Even a slow student of the Bible knows All Capital letters LORD, GOD refer to the Father and single capital L might be any person including Jesus by context. [/size]

Now you are switching your story and backpedaling. Are you now saying that the father is sometimes addressed as Lord, instead of LORD? And I happen to read both Biblical languages so I don’t really care whether a translation says LORD or Lord.

[size=-1]You have tons of cut and paste laid up ready and waiting and it would be a total waste of my time to prove that I have a better understanding because you would listen anyway. You want to look good and argue while I could care less what you think of how I comprehend verses from context. [/size]

Cut and paste implies dishonesty. You evidently do not know what it means. I cited scripture that I have personally looked up, having been a Christian, very likely, longer than you have been alive.

If you have such a good understanding “in context” why did you ignore the context of Luke 1:76, John 1:23, and Matt 3:1, which clearly proves your assumptions and presuppositions wrong?

I also note you did not address the points I made about John 1:18
 
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[SIZE=-1]Jesus was begotten of the Father and was given life unto himself, seperate of the Father. John 5:26

Many attempt to defend the trinity doctrine, but they choose to ignore much of scripture by doing so.

I can post one scripture, and there is much more that debunks the trinity doctrine, but because not one person has be able to make an argument that can disprove this one scripture, I have no need to post more.

God is not a God of confusion.

If God and Jesus are one in same, why would God go to the trouble of saying he begat his Son, when it was really himself?

This is confusion. And it is contrary to the Word of God. God would not say he begat his Son if it was not so.

Jesus is of God, but is not God the Father. Yet, should we call the Son God?

Certainly. The Father himself refers to the Son in Hebrews 1 as God, who are we not to do the same. The Son is the expressed image. His will is to do that of the Father. Jesus is the perfect will of the Father. He does only the will of his Father.

God the Father can have no association with sin. It is for this reason he begat his Son. And the Son was given the full athority of the Godhead, having the Holy Spirit without measure. He was begotten of the Father, and by the will of the Father through the unction of the Holy Spirit, all of creation came into being by the Son and through the Son.[/SIZE]

Nothing but a recitation of your assumptions and presuppositions and the doctrines of your denomination. It does NOT address anything I posted.

I would appreciate somebody actually reading my posts and responding to the many scriptures I posted.
 
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C.O.Ioves said:
vbmenu_register("postmenu_36115122", true); Nothing but a recitation of your assumptions and presuppositions and the doctrines of your denomination. It does NOT address anything I posted.

I would appreciate somebody actually reading my posts and responding to the many scriptures I posted.

Yea, they do that alot. They think they know what they are talking about is completely support (because you know, that is why they believe it) and therefore don't need to provide support for their rebuttles since it should be obvious. Don't worry though, one day someone will answer you and all you should care about is if you are of an open heart and mind to examine what they say in the manner you hope they take your opinions.
 
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Cut and paste implies dishonesty. You evidently do not know what it means. I cited scripture that I have personally looked up, having been a Christian, very likely, longer than you have been alive.
Since you do not know me or how long I have lived you continue to make assumptions based on lack of knowledge.
Reading the account in Luke clearly for me shows a prophecy of John growing up and doing Jehovah's will of paving the way for or redemption prophecying the coming of the Messiah, Jesus name is not used at all in these verses, ALL references to GOD in these verses are of YHWH the Father. No YHWH isn't used only LORD and GOD in the other translations I checked, the NWT uses Jehovah throughout the verses surrounding this one including verse 68 "Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people".
for several verses it is similar even calling John a "prophet of the Most High" surely you know who the "Most High" is.
You know you keep trying to push this Trinity down peoples throats as fact when it contradicts much of the Bible. There are billions of people who know better!
 
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just human

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Nothing but a recitation of your assumptions and presuppositions and the doctrines of your denomination. It does NOT address anything I posted.
It addressed everything you posted clearly and susinctly.
In case you missed it he was quoting scriptures, and making application of each one briefly. insrtead of just dumping a bunch of unconnected verses expecting some to waste their time wading through them for you pleasure as is clearly shown to be what you want from the quote below. You don't seriously think someone is going to wade through your pile to make you happy do you?
Try peacefully discussing one or two at a time with out the holier than thou attitude dude maybe someone will take a bit of their precious time to discuss them with you

I would appreciate somebody actually reading my posts and responding to the many scriptures I posted.
just human
 
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