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Trinity --- true or false?

Discussion in 'Controversial Theology (Christians only)' started by Logicalthinker, Jun 14, 2007.

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  1. Sir. Isaac Newton: The smartest human, other than Jesus, to ever live and one of the worlds greatest theologians says the doctrine of the trinity is an apostate and blasphemous. He studied it for years and traced it back to it's beginnings.





    Quote from "ON NEWTON AND THE TRINITY"
    John Byl, Ph.D.
    "According to Newton, the seventh seal began in the year 380, when trinitarianism was officially ratified at the Council of Constantinople. The great apostasy was not Romanism, but trinitarianism, “the false infernal religion”, to quote Newton's own words."


    Here is the whole article. John Byl is the author and does not agree with Newton. He makes some very good points about Newton though. Although John Byl discredits Newton, It does not matter. I know John Byl is no where near the intellect of Newton. To say things like this about brilliant men is weird. That is like me saying Steven Hawkins is not as smart as he thinks. It can easily be proven.
    http://www.geocentricity.com/ba1/no77/newton-b.html

    There is only one truth, one faith, one god and one savior.

    Ephesians 4:5-7 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.


    Notice
    in both verses that the Holy Ghost is not mentioned. If the Holy Ghost is part of the God Head, wouldn't the Holy Ghost be mentioned?

    I know that this trinity garbage has been hashed all before. But I can show that the Trinity is bunk. It is either that, or John and Jesus would be liars.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    These two verses are the trinity busters. The trinity can not be, or John is lying.

    Lets look at mans Idea.
    Mary is called the mother of God. That makes Jesus God, People saw Jesus, That means that they saw God, which would make John a liar.

    Well I know John did not lie. So God has never been seen. So Jesus is not God. He is an individual, the son of God. Just like he said over and over and over again. But people don't listen.

    The father of lies has laid snares. Why did Jesus call them snares? Because they're traps. They are not easy to see and they trick almost everyone.

    If a religion does not follow the doctrine of Christ, that is in the bible. It is a false religion. Any religion. I want to warn people not to be snared, and research all the doctrine of your church and cross reference it to the bible. Than do you see the truth. You see the snare.


    God Bless
    LT
     
  2. armyman_83

    armyman_83 Guest

    Down with the trinity!---Amen.
     
  3. Jessica01

    Jessica01 Guest



    The smartest human other than Jesus?
    Support please.
     
  4. armyman_83

    armyman_83 Guest

    On this I agree, to say he is the smartest man in the world is a bit much.
     
  5. perrin275

    perrin275 New Member

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    I believe Yeshua said this about the trinity.

    Matthew 24:5
    For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
     
  6. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    I would have to say the (smartest) wisest man ever to live next to Jesus was King Solomon. :)


    (1 Kings 4:30-31) . . .And Sol´o·mon’s wisdom was vaster than the wisdom of all the Orientals and than all the wisdom of Egypt. And he was wiser than any other man,. . .

    Regards,
    LB. A christian witness of Jehovah the only True God. (John 17:3)
     
  7. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    I'd hesitate to use the gospel of John to argue against Trinitarian doctrine. That's the main source Athanasius used to undermine Arius. It's especially evident in John 1 wherein the Word is identified as God, Himself. Incidentally, as to any reference that uses the term "God" and means the first Person is addressed in this passage. We Trinitarians generally accept that this is appropriate language and it's part of Trinitarian doctrine.

    Also, that the doctrine of the Trinity was confirmed at Constantinople is true insofar as it goes. But Trinitarianism, even if that word wasn't used until Tertullian, really is pretty orthodox. Arius didn't argue that he had tradition on his side. His main contention was that Trinitarianism was so incoherent that it would likely slip into Sabellianism.
     
  8. You know Isaac Newton. Law of Gravity, Motion, invented calculus. His calulations for orbiting objects are still used by NASA. Plus alchemy, theology, and physics. With out the tools he created: Einstein and Hawkins might just be figuring out calculus.

    If you need more info the internet is abound with it on Isaac Newton.

    God Bless
    LT
     
  9. Ha. Your right. I never thought of Solomon.

    Well let's just say that Isaac Newton was a very sharp tool in the tool shed.

    Thank you Brother.
    God Bless
    LT
     
  10. Everyone only uses the first few verses of John 1. But as I pointed out if you keep reading in John 1:18 says no one has seen God.

    So is man wrong?
    Or is the bible wrong?

    Who made the trinity doctrine?

    Plus is John lying about no one seeing God?


    Did God confirm the doctrine?
    Was he or an angel present in Constantinople to confirm this?

    God Bless
    LT
     
  11. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    I would take John 1:18 as an extension of what is discussed immediately prior: That the Law came through Moses but that grace is a direct revelation of Himself. And the emphasis is that when there was only the Law that grace was concealed within it but that the Father's glory was made manifest in the Son, not that nobody had literally seen God. After all, a number of prophets were given visions of God. And even in the same book, John has Christ say that whoever has seen him "has seen the Father." (John 14:9)

    More concisely, the concealment is clear from the figure of Moses receiving the Law while God has His back turned to him. This would have been familiar context to any of the Jewish listeners. The emphasis John makes in v.18 is that the Law is a concealment of God and that grace is His revelation.

    But however you take John 1:18, be careful that it doesn't conflict with the aforementioned 14:9, any of the prophetic visions, or even the destruction of Aaron's sons.

    I think both are right in this instance. The Trinity consistently flows from Scripture. As I say, I don't think John's argument is that nobody has seen God, per se, but from context that he is contrasting the Law (God with His back turned) with grace (the Incarnation of the Son).

    Think of it in this way:

    Nobody has seen God (v.18) : Law was given through Moses (v.17)
    It is God the only Son... who has made him known (v.18) : grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (v.17)

    I don't think it's necessary. It was the orthodox interpretation of Scripture prior to the council of Constantinople. To them (and to me), this was the clear teaching of God and thus was already confirmed.
     
  12. armyman_83

    armyman_83 Guest

    What of the Fact that Jesus says "My Father is greater than I".
    What of the fact that Jesus, if he is Yahweh, does not even know the date of his own return? "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" Mark 13:32

    Nor is there any evidence for the Trinity in the word "one" in the famous Jewish and Christian creed (Deut. 6:4, cited by Jesus as a Christian in Mark 12:28ff.). That most basic creed says: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord."


    "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible.... It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church until the fourth century" (Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Intervarsity Press, Tyndale House Publishers, 1980, part 3, p. 1).

    I truely doubt that the Apostles followed a Triune God.

    "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19

    "The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306).

    "The formulation ‘One God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299)

    "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p. 49)

    Jesus never said "I am God(Yahweh)." He always claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God.
     
  13. I take it how John meant it. No one has ever seen God. Moses saw his brilliant back side but never saw God.

    Plus John reaffirmed it in 1 John 4:12

    What about the verses that show separation.


    Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Ephesians 4:4-7 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Why was the holy Ghost not mentioned, If he is part of the Godhead and an equal, Why was he not mentioned?


    Well man is the one that is wrong. Not the bible. Your own church doctrine says the bible is correct and inspired of God.

    Rochester Chinese Christian Church
    What We Believe
    We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament as:
    • verbally inspired the word of God,
    • inerrant in the original writing,
    • the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and conduct,
    • complete revelation of His will for the salvation of man.
    The only bible that the trinity flows in is the apostate bible, the KJV. This bible has Gods name removed out of it and has Jesus talking in places that God talked (Rev. 1:8) and all kinds of fallacy.

    Although for this forum all the scripture I use is from the KJV.

    Man confirmed it. Not God. What does God say about other doctrine.

    1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    If God did not tell someone to write it. It is not confirmed.

    God Bless
    LT
     
  14. bluemarkus

    bluemarkus Veteran

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    *whisper*

    the trinity father son spirit indeed seems to be an old pagan myth
    imported into mass christianity ! but don´t tell anyone

    sir isaac newton figured out some amazing things, but the world thinks he was just a mathematician...

    *whisper end*
     
  15. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    I'd make the same arguments Trinitarians have historically made: The Son is inferior inasmuch as he touches humanity, and is coequal with the Father inasmuch as He touches the godhead. This deals more with the doctrine of the Incarnation, though.

    No? I'd like to hear why not, or at least why you bring it up, but I won't press the point.



    The operative is "formally." And, indeed, I concede this point. Although Sabellianism had already been opposed and largely quashed, the rise of Arianism around AD300 on the other side required more thought towards and formalization of the expression of certain Christian doctrines. Though, recall that "Trinitas" was used by Tertullian.

    This, I've found is a common misconception among non-Trinitarians: that Trinitarians think there is more than one God. In fact, part of the doctrine of the Trinity is that there is only one. Citing passages that say that there is one God is, in fact, a measure that the orthodoxy has taken with various unorthodox and/or polytheistic philosophers and theologians.

    As for the CE references, I'd agree to every one of them:

    "The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament"

    No, it wasn't taught in the Old Testament which is why the Jews, today, are not Trinitarians. Nevertheless, Justin Martyr finds references to each of the divine Persons in the OT. (First Apology: ch. 37-39, each Person in turn: Utterances of the Father, Utterances of the Son, Direct predictions by the Spirit)

    "The formulation ‘One God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"

    This is correct insofar as it goes. Although the Nicene Creed was clearly Trinitarian and the Arians opposed it, there was enough "wiggle room" that they eventually agreed to profess it. But a systematic approach to theology wasn't undertaken until Origen, so it would be difficult to defend the proposition that complex theological mentalities were held by anybody prior to him. Though, again, I'd cite Justin Martyr's direct references to Father, Son, and Spirit, and Irenaeus's Creed addresses the content of the doctrine, even if the word, "Trinity," is never used.

    "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person"

    That the Holy Spirit is asserted to be a Person in the OT is disputed by many theologians, and I don't think it will be enough to cite the CE to make this point. However, I won't argue it. The first two Persons are pretty widely regarded as being assigned Personality in the OT.

    I would, however, dispute the following: Jesus never said "I am God(Yahweh)." He always claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God.

    His self-references of "I am" are traditionally taken as the tetragrammaton and therefore: claims of divinity.

    ---

    I truely doubt that the Apostles followed a Triune God.

    I would argue that everyone who has worshipped the true God has worshipped a Triune God, even if they didn't know that He was Triune, because the true God is Triune. This assertion, I think, is quite defensible from Scripture, tradition, and reason.
     
  16. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    I don't think that's how John meant it, however, and I cited my reasons for thinking so. Consider Isaiah 6, for example, or the aforementioned John 14:9. How would you propose these verses are reconciled if not by the reasons I cited (even Trinitarianism aside)?

    This is, indeed, a very important point, but I think it supports Trinitarianism more than non-Trinitarianism. If, indeed, there is only one God (as we both agree), and there is no Savior but God, then is Christ really our Savior if he isn't God?

    This is one of the passages in which all three divine Persons are mentioned in close proximity. Another passage the orthodox fathers cited as supporting Trinitarianism. As I said in my initial post, citing the Father using the general term, God, is perfectly appropriate in Trinitarian theology, if that's the point that concerns you.

    He was. In some translations, Ghost is substituted for Spirit because in the older (not Old English, like Chaucer; but what is called "modern" = 17th century) English, that was a better translation. But whether He is called the Ghost or the Spirit, passages that mention Him still say the same things.

    I don't believe that all of the Scriptures are verbally inspired. I would simply say that it is inspired. But I suppose for the sake of this argument the contention is the same.

    And I don't need the KJV to argue the points I'm making. Actually, in the course of this discussion, I've been referencing the NRSV. Though, frankly, I'd use the Jehovah's Witnesses' translation if that would help.

    None of the Scriptural authors used the word, "Trinity." That's very true. In fact, this (along with words like homoousis) was a very somber and deliberate addition of language to the professions of faith. They recognized that it was not a Scriptural word. But they coined the word in order to encapsulate the doctrine that they thought (and I think) _is_ Scriptural.
     
  17. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    Indeed, there were Pagan religions that had things sort of like the Trinity, but I think that studying them instead of studying the orthodox Christian doctrine has led to some of the misunderstandings of Trinitarianism that are prevalent among non-Trinitarians. Note, for example, the number of citations saying that there is one God, as if Trinitarians disputed this. Ancient Pagan triads would legitimately be answered by these citations, but the Christian doctrine argues that there is one God Who is eternally three Persons.

    Newton was a brilliant man. But I think he was mistaken on this matter.
     
  18. Michael22

    Michael22 New Member

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    All of your biblical quotes are either out of context or poorly represented ways in an attempt to show there isn't a trinity. You really need to research the biblical passages you just quoted.

    I could go to many ends to present my research on this topic which I have looked in to for several years before making my decision. I would like to give those same warnings you gave right back to yourself in regards to fully researching this topic before deciding what you think it true.

    I encourage you to visit here and learn the truth behind the trinity. It explains, in full detail, the reasoning why there is a trinity and the truth of the Bible. This site has put in real research into this topic, so to brush it off would be rash.
     
  19. jesusfreak3786

    jesusfreak3786 Senior Veteran

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    I am personaly amazed that anyone would still use the edict of constentine given the facts known surrounding him and his reason for making christianity the universal faith. Also knowing that this was exactly the time that the pagen temples were turned into "churches" and the statues of thier gods were instead of being torn down had the apostles names slapped on them. (where do you think the catholic church got all thier graven images?) Trinity was a method for making the transition easier, since the pagans had been worshiping many gods, to make God three makes things easier for them to gain political baking.
     
  20. Willtor

    Willtor Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

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    This isn't quite correct. Again, one can read the pre-Constantine sources to find Trinitarian doctrine (even if nobody calls it Trinitarian doctrine ;) ). But even then, recall that Constantine wasn't pro-Trinity; it was the orthodoxy that was. All that aside, you might read Athanasius and see the things he was saying about adopting (or, rather, not adopting) pagan ideas.
     
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