Total Depravity

bling

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I hear what you are saying.
Man somehow thinks God is required to be fair.
God never cites fairness as an attribute.


Romans 9:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


...sound fair?
The word "fair" is not used to describe God, but just is, so would perfect justice not also be fair?
You have to really go deeper with Ro. 9 since Paul does tell us: Ro. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
 
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com7fy8

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If Adam and Eve’s “nature” was changed by: “"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" then God did not make them “stable in His love” (“perfect”), so they could avoid this “spirit” like Christians today can avoid this “spirit”.
This is correct; we in Jesus have ability and success which Adam and Eve did not have; even though they were perfectly created, they were only in a perfect creature state.

Are you saying Adam and Eve did not have enough self-interest to want to live (life had no value to them)?

Did Adam and Eve have a survival instinct?
Well, they did not have the instinct to say no to Satan.

The reason Christians do not fear “physical death” is because they have assurance of eternal life, but that does not mean “self-interest” has gone away. The Christian’s self-interest has been totally satisfied (we have everything including a birthright to an eternal home).
This sounds good to me :)

do you see it as fair/just for God to treat a new born baby of a Christian “better” than the new born child of a pagan family just because of their birth parents?
If God blesses a newborn baby, then the baby can bless other people. So, if God's blessing begins with one person and not another, still the others can also be blessed :) So, I think it being fair or not is not really what we need to be dealing with.

If someone else is blessed before you, you can love that person as yourself, by being glad for that person, plus feed on that person's example by getting blessed, also.

Why were we not made just like Christ with this “immunity”? Did God lack the Love or power to make us this way?
I understand that God meant for Jesus to get things started. He never intended or expected to start His blessing through creatures.

The question is not if God or man has to power to change, since God only has the power, but can humans in a “dead” state still do something? The prodigal son by Jesus’ definition of “dead” while in a dead state was able to “come to his senses and turn to his father” but it was not done out of “Love” for the father, but to selfishly have just some kind of life (a life he totally did not deserve).
I understand that God first made the prodigal son become alive in sense so then he did what is good.

I offer Ephesians 2:1-4. While we were love-dead, we did not get ourselves to do what is loving.
 
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bling

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This is correct; we in Jesus have ability and success which Adam and Eve did not have; even though they were perfectly created, they were only in a perfect creature state..

Wow, so why is God not unfair/unjust with Adam and Eve as compared to us?

Well, they did not have the instinct to say no to Satan.
.

Eve saying “no” to satan would not be a knee jerk reaction, but a thought out free will decision. She for selfish reasons wanted to believe “you shale not die” and satan supported her desire.

If God blesses a newborn baby, then the baby can bless other people. So, if God's blessing begins with one person and not another, still the others can also be blessed :) So, I think it being fair or not is not really what we need to be dealing with..

If someone else is blessed before you, you can love that person as yourself, by being glad for that person, plus feed on that person's example by getting blessed, also.



I understand that God meant for Jesus to get things started. He never intended or expected to start His blessing through creatures..

Jesus was around from the beginning, so why did God have to wait until Christ came to earth and does that mean no one before Christ came were saved?

I understand that God first made the prodigal son become alive in sense so then he did what is good.

I offer Ephesians 2:1-4. While we were love-dead, we did not get ourselves to do what is loving.

The prodigal son story (parable) shows us God is not directly involved in our making the choice to return, but is the choice we can make.

I totally agree we do not “Love” while in a dead stay the same as the prodigal son did not go to his father out of “Love”.
 
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com7fy8

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Wow, so why is God not unfair/unjust with Adam and Eve as compared to us?
I don't think God was unfair. Romans chapter nine gets into this. Didn't you say you want to discuss Romans chapter nine with me? Did you start a thread for this??

Jesus was around from the beginning, so why did God have to wait until Christ came to earth and does that mean no one before Christ came were saved?
Ones understand that people did get saved, before Jesus, by believing God and obeying Him. For one example, I think Paul is indicating that Abraham was saved, because he believed the LORD.
 
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bottomofsandal

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The word "fair" is not used to describe God, but just is, so would perfect justice not also be fair?
You have to really go deeper with Ro. 9 since Paul does tell us: Ro. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
It's 2 different words...right? We can't willy-nilly interchange words.
God is love. Love is kind. Sure they are similar, but different.

Fair is human nomenclature. Fair is a human concept. Like everyone gets a trophy.
Will not The Judge of all the earth do right? God judges with justice rightly.
 
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bling

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It's 2 different words...right? We can't willy-nilly interchange words.
God is love. Love is kind. Sure they are similar, but different.

Fair is human nomenclature. Fair is a human concept. Like everyone gets a trophy.
Will not The Judge of all the earth do right? God judges with justice rightly.

Perfect justice would also be perfectly “fair”, consistently treating everyone in the same situation with the same standard, and thus providing the same results.

How do you define “fair” and how does it compare to the world’s understanding of “fair”?

Is it right to be fair and wrong to be unfair?

Treating everyone, performing the same way in very similar situations, “equally” is both just and fair.

Extending mercy to some and not extending mercy to other who are virtually equal in all ways is not just or fair.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Extending mercy to some and not extending mercy to other who are virtually equal in all ways is not just or fair.

Fair is not in the definition...



Noun Strong's Number: g1656 Greek: eleos


Merciful (Adjective, and Verb, to Be), Mercy (Noun, and Verb, to Have, Etc.):

"is the outward manifestation of pity; it assumes need on the part of him who receives it, and resources adequate to meet the need on the part of him who shows it. It is used
(a) of God, who is rich in mercy, Eph 2:4, and who has provided salvation for all men, Tts 3:5, for Jews, Luk 1:72, and Gentiles, Rom 15:9. He is merciful to those who fear him, Luk 1:50, for they also are compassed with infirmity, and He alone can succor them. Hence they are to pray boldly for mercy, Hbr 4:16, and if for themselves, it is seemly that they should ask for mercy for one another, Gal 6:16; 1Ti 1:2. When God brings His salvation to its issue at the Coming of Christ, His people will obtain His mercy, 2Ti 1:16; Jud 1:21;

(b) of men; for since God is merciful to them, He would have them show mercy to one another, Mat 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; Luk 10:37; Jam 2:13.

"Wherever the words mercy and peace are found together they occur in that order, except in Gal 6:16. Mercy is the act of God, peace is the resulting experience in the heart of man. Grace describes God's attitude toward the law-breaker and the rebel; mercy is His attitude toward those who are in distress."*
[* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 340, 341.]

"In the order of the manifestation of God's purposes of salvation grace must go before mercy... only the forgiven may be blessed... From this it follows that in each of the Apostolic salutations where these words occur, grace precedes mercy, 1Ti 1:2; 2Ti 1:2; Tts 1:4 (in some mss.); 2Jo 1:3" (Trench, Syn, xlvii).



www.blbclassic.org/search/Dictionary/viewtopic.cfm?topic=VT0001801
 
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sdowney717

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Fair is not in the definition...



Noun Strong's Number: g1656 Greek: eleos


Merciful (Adjective, and Verb, to Be), Mercy (Noun, and Verb, to Have, Etc.):

"is the outward manifestation of pity; it assumes need on the part of him who receives it, and resources adequate to meet the need on the part of him who shows it. It is used
(a) of God, who is rich in mercy, Eph 2:4, and who has provided salvation for all men, Tts 3:5, for Jews, Luk 1:72, and Gentiles, Rom 15:9. He is merciful to those who fear him, Luk 1:50, for they also are compassed with infirmity, and He alone can succor them. Hence they are to pray boldly for mercy, Hbr 4:16, and if for themselves, it is seemly that they should ask for mercy for one another, Gal 6:16; 1Ti 1:2. When God brings His salvation to its issue at the Coming of Christ, His people will obtain His mercy, 2Ti 1:16; Jud 1:21;

(b) of men; for since God is merciful to them, He would have them show mercy to one another, Mat 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; Luk 10:37; Jam 2:13.

"Wherever the words mercy and peace are found together they occur in that order, except in Gal 6:16. Mercy is the act of God, peace is the resulting experience in the heart of man. Grace describes God's attitude toward the law-breaker and the rebel; mercy is His attitude toward those who are in distress."*
[* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 340, 341.]

"In the order of the manifestation of God's purposes of salvation grace must go before mercy... only the forgiven may be blessed... From this it follows that in each of the Apostolic salutations where these words occur, grace precedes mercy, 1Ti 1:2; 2Ti 1:2; Tts 1:4 (in some mss.); 2Jo 1:3" (Trench, Syn, xlvii).



www.blbclassic.org/search/Dictionary/viewtopic.cfm?topic=VT0001801
Many people worship a god of their own imaginations.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Many people worship a god of their own imaginations.
I notice people seem to be telling God how He must be according to their own preferences.
Not just a few, but many people are re-making God in their own image, which is very troubling.


Socialism God? God must treat everyone exactly the same? This is fair?
 
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EmSw

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I notice people seem to be telling God how He must be according to their own preferences.
Not just a few, but many people are re-making God in their own image, which is very troubling.

Socialism God? God must treat everyone exactly the same? This is fair?

You know not what you say!
 
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bottomofsandal

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You know not what you say!
Yeah, the amount of deceptive self-assurance is overwhelming!

Saved by grace and kept by works? Christ is insufficient, but man's added performance creates sufficiency?
Some rest in Christ's work, some labor in their own works.
No one can Biblically explain UNgifting salvation, being UNborn of God, and becoming UNinherited!!!

What is the centerpiece, the operative difference maker in this UN-ness? Man...man...man
Let's keep our eyes on Jesus. Grace is powerful enough to save...and to keep.
The perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ doesn't need our improvement, does it?
 
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EmSw

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Yeah, the amount of deceptive self-assurance is overwhelming!

Saved by grace and kept by works? Christ is insufficient, but man's added performance creates sufficiency?
Some rest in Christ's work, some labor in their own works.
No one can Biblically explain UNgifting salvation, being UNborn of God, and becoming UNinherited!!!

What is the centerpiece, the operative difference maker in this UN-ness? Man...man...man
Let's keep our eyes on Jesus. Grace is powerful enough to save...and to keep.
The perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ doesn't need our improvement, does it?

As I said, you know not what you say.
 
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bling

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I notice people seem to be telling God how He must be according to their own preferences.
Not just a few, but many people are re-making God in their own image, which is very troubling.


Socialism God? God must treat everyone exactly the same? This is fair?

I am not arbitrarily coming up with my own definition of what is “just” and “unjust”, since the Bible talks a lot about justice, judging and those that are unjust. From the Bible description of just and unjust (which would include Christ’s actions and words) it comes across to me to include fair and unfair, by man’s definition, but we can use only the concept of Biblical “just and unjust”.

Are you saying: “God justice contradicts the definition He gave us for justice in scripture”?

By your definition of “Fair” is God “fair” and if so what is your definition?

I do think God treats everyone “equally” in the areas that matter. God treats those that never reach adult maturity and have the opportunity to accept or reject God’s charity and God treats all mature adults given the opportunity to accept or reject God’s charity equally in the one area that matters (salvation). A mature adult can be like a poor Lazarus begging on the rich man’s steps, providing the best opportunity for the rich man to experience God’s Love, with both the rich man and the Lazarus type person being treated equally (as far as salvation is concerned).
 
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sdowney717

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God has both told and shown us what He is like, so can God be inconsistent to what He has shown?
Many people do not love the God of scripture, they imagine vain things.
Vain things are outrageous errors about God or say spiritual realities.
They speak outrageous things about celestial beings.
Jude
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

Here is the NIV
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

Psalm 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
 
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EmSw

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Many people do not love the God of scripture, they imagine vain things.
Vain things are outrageous errors about God or say spiritual realities.
They speak outrageous things about celestial beings.
Jude
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

Here is the NIV
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

Psalm 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Of whom are you speaking? You talking about those who disagree with you? You wanting them to be your inheritance? Are you wanting God's wrath upon them? Who doesn't love God?
 
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Uber Genius

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Hello! :wave:

I want to ask about the doctrine of total depravity.

From reading my Bible many times, it seems like the doctrine is crystal clear.

We are corrupted in every aspect of life and we cannot save ourselves.

However, I was curious why some Christians rejected total depravity, so I searched around.

I found one Orthodox site where the author disagreed with the doctrine. What he said he believed sounds a lot like total depravity, except he denied that it was human nature. He believed that humans were inherently good and that human nature is to seek out good and be righteous and that sin is a corruption of our human nature.

He further expands on this that Jesus was fully human and fully God. In order to be fully human, he'd need to have human nature, and Jesus never sinned, so our nature is actually inherently good, but it has been severely impacted by sin.

That gave me a new perspective of the doctrine and I still hold it today.

The main question is this, could total depravity have been exaggerated in the Bible. There are verses in the Bible where the speaker or writer seems to exaggerated. "It is easier for a camel to go the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom."

Thoughts?
There is no doubt that figures of speech are used continually throughout the Old and New Testaments. They make it easy to convey oral teachings but sometimes difficult to recover meaning once removed by 2000-3500 yrs.

I woild not put to much emphasis on Christ's nature in comparison to mans' fallen nature. It is significant in its difference. We see the work of the HS calling and convicting some and apparently not others. I have no reason to believe that people come to God without the HS' intervention. That said, before we are justified the evangelists make rational appeals. The scriptures are filled with calls for unregenerate individuals to weigh evidence and arguments and repent.

So to whom are they appealing?

What human faculties are they assuming?

If humans don't have a responsive role based on their new-found beliefs that:

A. They are Outside of a proper relationship with God due to sin.
B. Need to repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Then why the hundreds of scriptures of pleading and arguments for them to adopt the apostles teaching or Jesus teaching?

You don't teach robots. You program them.

Just about all of the foundation stones of TULIP are corruptions due to poor exegesis and philosophical naïveté on the part of Calvin.

We should appreciate the fact that we stand on the shoulders of giants (those intellects who have gone before us), but just as we have moved on from the limited Aristotelian understanding of physics, to Newtonian, and now GTR, so too we should nod our hats to the reformers and use the best exegetical methods applied to the best text, applied with our best philosophical understanding.

If we do those things we can make progress in imaging Christ and being ambassadors to a lost world.

Depraved ...yes, of coarse. But we don't want to eliminate the obvious free choice that is appealed to 1000s of times in scripture.

So drop "Totally" and stop being afraid of being called a "synergist" by name-calling Calvinists during recess. Is Paul really appealing to robots?
 
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